Caestus Assault Ram and Death or Glory

[Fibonacci]

Note: This topic was originally a series of replies in a topic about the Caestus Assault Ram, seen here. The diversion into the rules debate began with the following:

I run 2 rams.... sometimes. Its a great vehicle and very hard to stop AV 13 front and sides is difficult enough more so on a flyer. It can tank shock on arrival from reserve and then drop its large blast on something. Some may argue it cant but the rules are reasonably clear it is a tank that has flyer rules. I politely decline to debate or explain it further make your own minds up and feel free to disagree. The way I run it is accepted where I play.

I run it mainly against Tau, more so these days. You can run angels of death and take a cheap DA libby with a shield generator on a 4++.

Fly it around the board shooting things with the twin linked large melta blast and for extra cheese tank shock Riptides or Missilesides sitting on board edges every time you leave the board. Its a free shot at the blue cheese warriors. Death or Glory wont work as you cant assault a Flyer.

Fibonacci's original reply was below.

The way I run it is accepted where I play.

You have a very accepting group of people there.  Over here we tend to do things differently.

[Reichfaust]

 

  The way I run it is accepted where I play. 

You have a very accepting group of people there.  Over here we tend to do things differently.

 

Care to elaborate? I have been very keen on the Caestus Assault Ram ever since it was released, and I am very close to biting the bullet and getting one--or two! Would like to hear how the model/rules are received in different circles.

[Fibonacci]

 

Care to elaborate? I have been very keen on the Caestus Assault Ram ever since it was released, and I am very close to biting the bullet and getting one--or two! Would like to hear how the model/rules are received in different circles.

I have never heard the "you can't assault a flyer" argument before.  Death or Glory is not an assault.  It is a single special attack with which ever weapon the model chooses to use.  I don't see how firing a multi-melta for example could ever be thought of as an assault.  Anyway, Death or Glory is a single attack with any weapon granted to any non-vehicle unit being tank shocked.  It automatically hits the front armor thus always giving the Caestus a 5++ save.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think it has been mentioned but we also allow deepstrikes in hover mode or you can move it on from the table edge like normal.  But that's all FW flyers, not just the Caestus.  Other places will probably play differently.

[Drunken Angel]

 

 

Care to elaborate? I have been very keen on the Caestus Assault Ram ever since it was released, and I am very close to biting the bullet and getting one--or two! Would like to hear how the model/rules are received in different circles.

I have never heard the "you can't assault a flyer" argument before.  Death or Glory is not an assault.  It is a single special attack with which ever weapon the model chooses to use.  I don't see how firing a multi-melta for example could ever be thought of as an assault.  Anyway, Death or Glory is a single attack with any weapon granted to any non-vehicle unit being tank shocked.  It automatically hits the front armor thus always giving the Caestus a 5++ save.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think it has been mentioned but we also allow deepstrikes in hover mode or you can move it on from the table edge like normal.  But that's all FW flyers, not just the Caestus.  Other places will probably play differently.

Rules for the Caestus Assualt Ram

Despite being a flyer a CAR may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a tank when zooming

This tank shock/ram is described in the movement phase, zooming.

The Caestus Assault Ram is still a flyer that may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a tank but still remains a flyer in zoom mode.

Rulebook update V  1.5 FAQ maelstroms beams and novas any attack that does not roll to hit cannot target a flyer.

Death or glory is an auto hit and therefore cannot hit a flyer.

After the Caestus has tank shocked on arrival onto the board it may shoot its template, the restriction on tank shock snap firing is for a tank and the ram is still FAQ'd as a flyer in zoom mode.  Flyers in zoom fire at full ballistic skill.

 

Enter play, tank shock or ram while ploughing through troops with disdain and line up a light transport.  Ram it but keep the distance travelled between 18 inches and 21you dont want to immobilised at less than 18 or your toast.  Procede to blow stuff up then drop the large blast template on the fleeing squishies.

 

                                 If FW wanted it any different they would have just written "enters skimmer mode to conduct ram attacks as a skimmer",

[Fibonacci]

 

 

This tank shock/ram is described in the movement phase, zooming.

The Caestus Assault Ram is still a flyer that may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a tank but still remains a flyer in zoom mode.

Rulebook update V  1.5 FAQ maelstroms beams and novas any attack that does not roll to hit cannot target a flyer.

Death or glory is an auto hit and therefore cannot hit a flyer.

After the Caestus has tank shocked on arrival onto the board it may shoot its template, the restriction on tank shock snap firing is for a tank and the ram is still FAQ'd as a flyer in zoom mode.  Flyers in zoom fire at full ballistic skill.

 

Enter play, tank shock or ram while ploughing through troops with disdain and line up a light transport.  Ram it but keep the distance travelled between 18 inches and 21you dont want to immobilised at less than 18 or your toast.  Procede to blow stuff up then drop the large blast template on the fleeing squishies.

 

                                 If FW wanted it any different they would have just written "enters skimmer mode to conduct ram attacks as a skimmer",

 

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures.

 

 

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot ? (p13)

A: Yes.

[Drunken Angel]

 

 

This tank shock/ram is described in the movement phase, zooming.

The Caestus Assault Ram is still a flyer that may make ram attacks in exactly the same way as a tank but still remains a flyer in zoom mode.

Rulebook update V  1.5 FAQ maelstroms beams and novas any attack that does not roll to hit cannot target a flyer.

Death or glory is an auto hit and therefore cannot hit a flyer.

After the Caestus has tank shocked on arrival onto the board it may shoot its template, the restriction on tank shock snap firing is for a tank and the ram is still FAQ'd as a flyer in zoom mode.  Flyers in zoom fire at full ballistic skill.

 

Enter play, tank shock or ram while ploughing through troops with disdain and line up a light transport.  Ram it but keep the distance travelled between 18 inches and 21you dont want to immobilised at less than 18 or your toast.  Procede to blow stuff up then drop the large blast template on the fleeing squishies.

 

                                 If FW wanted it any different they would have just written "enters skimmer mode to conduct ram attacks as a skimmer",

 

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures.

 

 

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot ? (p13)

A: Yes.

 

Death or glory is an auto hit and does not roll to hit.  Snap shot is a D6 roll to hit on a BS of 1, not an auto hit.  Only a snap shot (D6 roll) or a model with skyfire rule can target flyers.  Its an old saw ask a space wolf about JoTWW or a Blood Angel about Blood Lance.

[Nusquam]

I'm basing my logic on something going faster than the speed of sound isn't going to be autohit by anything

[Drunken Angel]

I'm basing my logic on something going faster than the speed of sound isn't going to be autohit by anything

 

Congratulations!  Forge World share your logic.  One of my gaming mates sent and received an email on the Caestus's rules.  The ram is going too fast to be autohit in CC (zooming flyers can't be assaulted anyway) and only snap shots can target a flyer.  Death or Glory is not a snapshot.

[Fibonacci]

Logic and rules seldom mix :lol:

 

Actually a Snapshot is fired at BS 1.  It does not say you need to roll a 6 to hit.  Attacks that auto-hit still autohit at BS1.

 

 

If that's the way tyour gourp accepts it, fine.  Keep on playing that way.  Like I said, over here we follow play differently.  Autohits still auto hit as snapshots.

[Drunken Angel]

Death or Glory is an Autohit not a Snapshot, thats the point, it does not roll to hit and is therefore unable to target a flyer.

 

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures.

 

Logic is on the side of the Ram, what was its job again? It is designed to crash into things.  Even a Tau spam-tide or Eldar man-barbi is not going to do much to something designed to impact a battle cruisers armour and deliver assaulters into it

[Fibonacci]

Where do you get that you have to roll a die?  You don't HAVE to roll a die.  You have to make a snapshot. Snapshots as BS1.  That's it. 

 

You are fond of quoting the part that says only snapshots hit flyers but you keep missing the other part.

 

 

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot ? (p13)
A: Yes.

 

Right from the same FAQ you are quoting.

 

DoG is an autohit.  When taken as a snapshot, it automatically hits.  So, Death or Glory snap fires at a flyer and .... automatically hits.

[Fibonacci]

OK. This is only one part of the whole tank shock mess. Can it even tank shock? The Tank type is noted as having its own rule that says it may ram when zooming. Does Ramming allow you to tank shock? I have seen this go both ways. Ramming is a special type of tank shock. That does not automatically mean you can tank shock any more than being able to make a snap shot (a special type of shooting attack) means you can also make normal shooting attacks. Here locally we say it can tank shock but I have seen it played differently and both ways are perfectly valid by the rules.

The CAR is mired in rule conflicts. The only thing you can do is try to talk about how it plays before actually starting the game. It is a flyer. It is also a tank. Like a lot of FW units they are designed to break existing rules to make a unique new unit. Unfortunately the existing rules don't hold up well on their own, much less when you start breaking them intentionally. The only thing you can do is work it out before you play.

[Drunken Angel]

Look up the rule for Snap Shot, it's a D6 roll to hit at BS 1

Death or Glory is not described as a snapshot it is an Autohit.
Auto hit is not a dice roll therefore unable to be called a snapshot.
Shooting attacks that do not use a ballistic skill (Autohit) cannot be fired as a Snapshot.

Bottom line

Any shooting attack that does not roll to hit, or does not use a ballistic skill cannot target a flyer nor can a flyer in zoom be assaulted.
I think the problem here is the confusing of two seperate clearly defined actions when you call an autohit a snapshot.

 

As far as tank shock the rules could not be simpler, please read the rule book on Ram.

 

Caestus Assault Ram, does what it says on the label.

 

Any vehicle that can Tank Shock can also Ram. Units other than vehicles in the path of a ramming tank are Tank Shocked as normal.

 

The rules on the Caestus Assault Ram hold up just fine, if anything they are minimalist, clear and precise.  People seem to have a problem confusing/combining Snapshot and Autohit, its been sorted out for a while now in the general gaming community.  As an example JoTWW and Blood Lance are not able to target flyers either, they are Autohits that do not roll to hit.

[Nusquam]

This came up today when I used it. (I proxied a cylon raider) It was a mess. I won the debate with only snapshots can hit the flyer.