Non-Heavy FOC Long Range shooting options

[minigun762]

I'm toying between the following:

Rifleman Dreadnought

Land Speeder Typhoon

Storm Talon w/ Skyhammer

 

Price tags are all very similar once they are normalized (2 Dreads vs 2 Talons vs 3 Speeders)

 

Do one of these choices stand out from the others in an all comers list?

[Komrk]

What are you usually trying to kill. Stormtalon has the advantages of being a flier and 60" range but it's not TL but it does have strafing run. So it would be...

3 BS5 shots at 60" S7 AP4 vs 4 TL BS4 (Unless you buy Ven) shots at 48"? S7 AP4 vs 2 BS4 shots at 48" but S8 AP3

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Sternguard can also take, what, two heavy weapons per squad?  So there's another option to add to the list.

[Brother Icculus]

Well the stormtalons are nice in that they can provide long range support as well as some antt-air support. They are also very mobile so they can get around to hit the targets you need to hit. The downside to them is that they are held in reserve and may not come in when you need them. 

 

Dreads are going to be more durable and can sit in the backfield and fire every single turn. No need to worry about the reserve thing. And with a higher AV and more HP it will be hard to bring them down. If you make them Venerable, it will cost more points but their BS goes up and you increase their survivability.

 

As for the landspeeder typhoons, you combine the quick mobility of hitting the targets you want, with the firing everyturn feature of the dreads. Downside is that they are probably the most fragile of the group. 

 

So I think there merits to all three. I would go with the Stormtalons though. And if you have something else coming in on reserves you can have both of them escort it, that way you will make sure to have both stormtalons in on one turn.

[IK Viper]

Talons casuse Pinning with Straffing Run...  very good, often overlooked run that can save your bacon some times (and everyone likes bacon)   A few Stormtalons and Thunderfire Cannons should be able to put out 3-4 Pinning checks a turn which usually results in a pinned unit.

 

I would dismiss the dreadnoughts from the discussion completely.  I also play GK and Psyfulmans rarely make the cut into my lists with S8 weapons as they are worthless against MC's and most infantry worth shooting him at.  His big trick is the Reinforced Aigis which the SM one does not have.  The Typhoons are a more consistant option specially if you have anti-air in the list and are presenting enough threats to distract your opponnet.

 

To me its either the Talons or the Speeders and it comes down to this, does your list need more Anti-Tank or Anti-Air.  I think the Typoons are better AT b/c they are going to be on the board longer and honeslty you need your AT on turns 1 and 2 to pop transports/really killy vehicles. If the Talons show up on turn 3 its almost to late.  But if you need Anti-Air also, take the Talons as they double as great ground attack units, specially against 4+ troups and light AV. 

[minigun762]

My intended targets could be anything so I want flexibility but if I had to guess I'd say AV11-12 transports, MCs and bikers are my biggest concerns.

 

This means 3+ saves are likely but so are boosted cover saves.

 

Durability seems really hard to compare.

Speeders and Dreads have the same # of HP but one trades AV12 for a constant 5+ save. Talon gets most of it's durability by being a flyer.

 

Dread and speeder can start shooting on turn 1, which is a big bonus. The reserve issue is actually a major sticking point for me.

[Ming]

Razorbacks can fit the bill nicely too.

 

Not to mention combat squads with a ML or LC in each.

 

And for that first turn devastation, HKMs on everything -

 

Cyclones on termies...

 

And IIRR...3++ LoTD...but I don't know what HWs they have access too. But they are slow and purply...

[Warlord Torvold]

I myself favour the Typhoon speeder with H.Bolter in a 3 speeder squadron.  Against blob squads 9 H.Bolter shots and 6 frag missiles can really put out the hurt.  Against MC's the H.Bolter loses some effectiveness but the option of krak missiles from the Typhoon launcher does the business.  This also holds true against light AV vehicles the Bolter can touch up to AV11 while the missiles handle the rest.  This covers the offensive capabilities.

 

A big selling point for me is the sheer mobility options of the Landspeeder.  Can move 12 and fire or can boost to 24 to line up shots for the next turn.  This mobility is also good for getting out of a bad situation and lets not forget the jink save.  Also the Landspeeder can deep strike most people seem to over look this.   This ability has risks with bad scatter rolls but a locator beacons say on a drop pod can minimize this. 

 

Just my thoughts.

[minigun762]

I myself favour the Typhoon speeder with H.Bolter in a 3 speeder squadron. Against blob squads 9 H.Bolter shots and 6 frag missiles can really put out the hurt. Against MC's the H.Bolter loses some effectiveness but the option of krak missiles from the Typhoon launcher does the business. This also holds true against light AV vehicles the Bolter can touch up to AV11 while the missiles handle the rest. This covers the offensive capabilities.

 

A big selling point for me is the sheer mobility options of the Landspeeder. Can move 12 and fire or can boost to 24 to line up shots for the next turn. This mobility is also good for getting out of a bad situation and lets not forget the jink save. Also the Landspeeder can deep strike most people seem to over look this. This ability has risks with bad scatter rolls but a locator beacons say on a drop pod can minimize this.

 

Just my thoughts.

I agree with the rest but if you're deepstriking it seems as if the melta or flamer weapons would be superior.

[Warlord Torvold]

Fair point on the weapon load out Minigun762, if I was exclusively DSing speeders it would not be a Typhoon well at least not a squadron of 3.  Using a single melta speeder as a cheap suicide unit to knock out an important piece of enemy armour or structure seems like just sound tactics to me.  I have had some luck with DSing a single Typhoon off a drop pod beacon to harass my opponents flanks and rear. 

[Kaedes Nex]

Consider the Contemptor Mortis. It can take the normal 48" loadouts but on a sturdier platform with Skyfire/Interceptor. I'm pretty sure one of the versions is elite. Either the Apocalypse one or the IA2 one.

[minigun762]

Consider the Contemptor Mortis. It can take the normal 48" loadouts but on a sturdier platform with Skyfire/Interceptor. I'm pretty sure one of the versions is elite. Either the Apocalypse one or the IA2 one.

Interesting, I don't often consider non-standard units.

[Azash]

I like talons just because of there mobility and versatility and the bs 5 against most units.

 

The mortis is an interesting option as well and if I remember correctly they are a lot more durable than a standard dread.

 

If your not already using some sort of fortification an aegis with quad gun. As long as you have a unit available to fire.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Consider the Contemptor Mortis. It can take the normal 48" loadouts but on a sturdier platform with Skyfire/Interceptor. I'm pretty sure one of the versions is elite. Either the Apocalypse one or the IA2 one.

 

IA2 has the most recent rules, and it is Elite.

 

The 'recent rules' caveat matters because we've had response from Forge World saying that you use the most recent version.

[Kaedes Nex]

FW also answered an email saying that any book they still sell is current as they don't sell outdated rules, and certain chapters still draw rules from Apocalypse as they don't get to use the IA2 Contemptor.

 

Heard it from here: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-use-of-ba-and-sw-contemptor.html

 

 

We passed your question onto the rules team and they came back with. 

Imperial Armour: Apocalypse and Imperial Armour 2, Second Edition are both current books. If you wish to field Chapter-specific Contemptor Dreadnoughts, please use the rules in Imperial Armour: Apocalypse to do so, as nothing in Imperial Armour 2, Second Edition contradicts or overides this option.

 

It seems like this might only apply for BA and SW. Perhaps they wanted Contemptors to stay powerful HS while DA and C:SM got the weaker more expensive elite version? Or are DA and C:SM allowed to pick either one? Their responses only raises more questions since "both are current books". Unless they were referring specifically to BA and SW only, as "nothing in IA2:2E contradicts or overrides this option" is clearly false for C:SM and DA.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Ah right, for the ones that aren't mentioned in IA2. Agreed that it likely only applies to BA and SW.

 

I thought the points costs were the same though? Actually, I don't mind that SW and BA get 'better' versions. Odd that DA got lumped in with SM though.

[Kaedes Nex]

I think the Apocalypse ones cost less for the base Contemptor and have more expensive weapons? I'd need to check but I'm not posting from my home.

 

Just from cursory Google searching the IA2:2E version received a base cost increase of 20 points, lost 1WS, and 1 rear AV. Quite a hefty nerf with no apparent buffs to compensate.

 

Also I do believe the Apocalypse non-Mortis still retain the Targeting Augury whilst the IA2 regular Contemptors no longer have one, only the Mortis.

[hallodx]

I massively deploy talons and speeders for my bike army. They bring good amount of fire and shots of good strength at good distance. (hey yo want to play kite? yeah lets play!

All I can recall in C:SM codex is, rifle dreads, talons with skyhammer missile/lascannon(if you want AP2), speeders with missile, veteran with heavy weapon(but...NO)

Not too familiar with IA.

[UltraTacSgt]

My intended targets could be anything so I want flexibility but if I had to guess I'd say AV11-12 transports, MCs and bikers are my biggest concerns.

...

Dread and speeder can start shooting on turn 1, which is a big bonus. The reserve issue is actually a major sticking point for me.

 

The answer is clear if these are your parameters.

 

I use a Rifleman Dreadnought and two Land Speeder Typhoons in every single list I run. They are auto includes, right there next to my Vindicators and Tactical Squads.

 

To start from an overall strategy viewpoint, the Speeders and Dread will start on the board and shoot from turn 1, as well as contributing to your armies target saturation. It is invaluable to have your bigger guns firing away right from the start to help you net First Blood and neuter threatening enemy units. The fact that they can make your enemy spread their fire around and can help keep more of your units alive for a longer amount of time by doing so is pretty valuable too. My Speeders and Dread have netted me First Blood and/or caused strategically important damage to enemies in their first shooting round more times than I can count.

 

From a versatility viewpoint, Speeders and Dreads can't be beaten.

  I run a two Typhoon squadron, 6 HB shots and 4 krak or frag missiles can do real damage to almost anything in the game. 6 Heavy Bolter shots is great for putting wounds on anything without an AV, the ability to shoot frag missiles when the enemy target is bunched up really lets you put some considerable weight of fire onto units that are either really numerous or have a good armor save, and the good old fashioned krak missiles can put an AP3 wound on almost anything on a 2+ and can allow you to seriously threaten any vehicles AV13 and lower. Add into this equation the fact that you have great mobility and 36+ inch range and you have a unit that can put great firepower on almost any unit you want it to hit at a moments notice. Mobility and range also allows Typhoons to be played with a high level of control over Line of Sight, you can give them the shooting angle they need while preventing most enemies from being able to target them.

 The Rifleman is another unit capable of threatening just about anything in the game AV12 and lower. Those 4 TL str7 shots will reliably wound a huge range of enemies and even if the AP4 isn't impressive, wounding so easily on 2's while hitting on twin linked 3's means you will make your enemy roll a lot of saves.

 

Longevity wise, my Dread and Typhoons rarely die, and when they do it is only in later rounds after they have done their job and caused enough damage that the enemy focuses on them. The 48in range on the Dread and the smaller model mean you can place him in a spot that will have the best cover save and line of sight possible and just let him shoot away all game. The Typhoons can just hover around in the 32+ inch range and unload their weapons with very little fear of return fire (5+ jink is handy too). In a balanced list like mine, there are so many threats that my Speeders and Dread are almost always ignored (Vindicators are a huge help keeping the attention off of them).

 

 Both of these units are incredibly consistent. They have the range, ballistic skill, and weapon strength to put wounds on targets every time they are called to shoot.

 

I just don't feel like Stormtalons belong in the same category as Speeders/Dreads.

 -The reserve element can easily mean you are waiting to turn 3 or later to even get on the board, so right there you lose round 1/2 shooting which is a huge deal.

 -Many people have intercepting units and skyfire units that will just wreck your Stormtalon as soon as it arrives (AV11 and 2hp is woefully weak for a Space Marine Flyer)

 -Flyers are a huge "Shoot Me" kind of unit. The moment one arrives you bump it up to a high priority target. Conversely, a dinky looking Dread in 4+ cover in a back building or two     Typoons skittering around behind much more immediate threats are not going to be high priority.

 

 TL : DR

 

 Typhoons and Dreads are much more versatile, consistent, and effective than a Stormtalon could ever hope to be.

[Azash]

 

My intended targets could be anything so I want flexibility but if I had to guess I'd say AV11-12 transports, MCs and bikers are my biggest concerns.

...

Dread and speeder can start shooting on turn 1, which is a big bonus. The reserve issue is actually a major sticking point for me.

 

The answer is clear if these are your parameters.

 

I use a Rifleman Dreadnought and two Land Speeder Typhoons in every single list I run. They are auto includes, right there next to my Vindicators and Tactical Squads.

 

To start from an overall strategy viewpoint, the Speeders and Dread will start on the board and shoot from turn 1, as well as contributing to your armies target saturation. It is invaluable to have your bigger guns firing away right from the start to help you net First Blood and neuter threatening enemy units. The fact that they can make your enemy spread their fire around and can help keep more of your units alive for a longer amount of time by doing so is pretty valuable too. My Speeders and Dread have netted me First Blood and/or caused strategically important damage to enemies in their first shooting round more times than I can count.

 

From a versatility viewpoint, Speeders and Dreads can't be beaten.

  I run a two Typhoon squadron, 6 HB shots and 4 krak or frag missiles can do real damage to almost anything in the game. 6 Heavy Bolter shots is great for putting wounds on anything without an AV, the ability to shoot frag missiles when the enemy target is bunched up really lets you put some considerable weight of fire onto units that are either really numerous or have a good armor save, and the good old fashioned krak missiles can put an AP3 wound on almost anything on a 2+ and can allow you to seriously threaten any vehicles AV13 and lower. Add into this equation the fact that you have great mobility and 36+ inch range and you have a unit that can put great firepower on almost any unit you want it to hit at a moments notice. Mobility and range also allows Typhoons to be played with a high level of control over Line of Sight, you can give them the shooting angle they need while preventing most enemies from being able to target them.

 The Rifleman is another unit capable of threatening just about anything in the game AV12 and lower. Those 4 TL str7 shots will reliably wound a huge range of enemies and even if the AP4 isn't impressive, wounding so easily on 2's while hitting on twin linked 3's means you will make your enemy roll a lot of saves.

 

Longevity wise, my Dread and Typhoons rarely die, and when they do it is only in later rounds after they have done their job and caused enough damage that the enemy focuses on them. The 48in range on the Dread and the smaller model mean you can place him in a spot that will have the best cover save and line of sight possible and just let him shoot away all game. The Typhoons can just hover around in the 32+ inch range and unload their weapons with very little fear of return fire (5+ jink is handy too). In a balanced list like mine, there are so many threats that my Speeders and Dread are almost always ignored (Vindicators are a huge help keeping the attention off of them).

 

 Both of these units are incredibly consistent. They have the range, ballistic skill, and weapon strength to put wounds on targets every time they are called to shoot.

 

I just don't feel like Stormtalons belong in the same category as Speeders/Dreads.

 -The reserve element can easily mean you are waiting to turn 3 or later to even get on the board, so right there you lose round 1/2 shooting which is a huge deal.

 -Many people have intercepting units and skyfire units that will just wreck your Stormtalon as soon as it arrives (AV11 and 2hp is woefully weak for a Space Marine Flyer)

 -Flyers are a huge "Shoot Me" kind of unit. The moment one arrives you bump it up to a high priority target. Conversely, a dinky looking Dread in 4+ cover in a back building or two     Typoons skittering around behind much more immediate threats are not going to be high priority.

 

 TL : DR

 

 Typhoons and Dreads are much more versatile, consistent, and effective than a Stormtalon could ever hope to be.

Interesting take. I am curious to know how your typhoons have faired with wave serpents. Since the new eldar codex has dropped my speeders have become rather useless since they are first blood fodder. A str 7, 1d6+1 shots, 60" range, and ignores cover oh and itsntwin linked mostbof theb time against an armor 10 and 2 HP vehicle has pretty much made it futile to take in competitive games.

 

Also all the tau ignores cover hasnt helped either. What have you found to counter the threat and keep them alive past round 1?

[UltraTacSgt]

Interesting take. I am curious to know how your typhoons have faired with wave serpents. Since the new eldar codex has dropped my speeders have become rather useless since they are first blood fodder. A str 7, 1d6+1 shots, 60" range, and ignores cover oh and itsntwin linked mostbof theb time against an armor 10 and 2 HP vehicle has pretty much made it futile to take in competitive games.

 

Also all the tau ignores cover hasnt helped either. What have you found to counter the threat and keep them alive past round 1?

 

 I face very few Eldar opponents in my meta, but when I have faced them it was threat saturation and a healthy dose of anti armor shooting that kept my speeders alive.

 

The last game I played against them was a guy who had Tau with Eldar allies. He had two of the Eldar tanks with the shield that reduces your hit to a glance as well as Broadsides and some Tau armor. I just weighed him down with anti tank shooting though. I bring two Vindicators, LC/ML Devestators, two different TL AC platorms (Dread and Quadgun), and my Speeders. Even with downgrading me to glances I put plenty of hits onto armor, and with Vindi's and aggressively played infantry right in his face he had bigger fish to fry than my Speeders.

 

 As far as Speeders go, while out ranging enemy return fire and cover saves are useful, I think the only real way to keep them alive is to have more pressing threats in your army. Only a fool, or someone who really wanted the Speeders dead, would focus his long ranged, higher strength weapons on Speeders while Vindicators, loaded Rhinos, Dreads, etc are bearing down on them. Also, using the mobility of the Speeders to control enemy LoS is pretty important when you can manage it.

 

All that said, if someone really wants to kill some Speeders and they have a decent number of long ranged mid to high strength weapons, then they will probably succeed; but that is no different from any other unit in the game.

[SyNidus]

In my drop pod army I have 2 typhoons as long range firepower. This is on top of the stormwing formation (which is insane btw) and 2 thunderfire cannons. I rarely have trouble pouring shots downfield.

 

As mentioned, typhoons are durable because of their mobility and jink saves, on top of that, because they get to stay at range, you get to avoid small arms fire. Never tried riflemen dreads so I can't comment.

 

Stormtalons are good, but not being able to start on the table is a big drawback if you're relying on it for long-range firepower.

[minigun762]

How significant has the mobility of the Typhoons been compared to something like a Tactical combat squad hiding in cover that is also shooting?

[Azash]

How significant has the mobility of the Typhoons been compared to something like a Tactical combat squad hiding in cover that is also shooting?

 

It's apples to oranges sort of thing. The tactical squad in cover is usually looking a 3+ sv or 4+ cover save and 4 to 9 wounds before it's heavy shot is jeopardized. The typhoon needs its mobility to minimize the number of shots an opponent can fire on it cause it has a 5+ cover save and 2 hp's with the chance of being taken out in one hit from a pen (pretty good odds with armor 10). Also those two shots can be jeopardized through weapon destroyed results or shaken/stunned results.

 

Personally based on my experience even a 5 man tactical squad will out last a speeder and its scoring! All that being said from my earlier post I am not the a speeder advocate. Another down side i forgot to mention is scenarios where they count as extra objective points...weak armor and low hp's and now it's a victory penata for your opponent.

[tdemayo]

Has anyone mentioned that Centurion devies are Elites in the Sentinels of Terra supplement?  If you fill out the Heavies and then put the Centurions in Elites, that is a lot of firepower...