Deathwing Knights and Interrogator-Chaplain?

[Maraech]

So do you think using deathwing knights in a LRC with belial would be better than say a normal Terminator Squad with 3 TH/SS and a Heavy Flamer?

 

The knights are all 2+3++ and make belial T5 to better tank wounds if need be, but they are not scoring.  They also get the 1 time per game smite mode and then after that are kinda meh in my experience.

 

 The Terminator Squad is scoring and has 2+3++ - 2 but gain a Heavy Weapon and are always str 8 AP2.  They do not give Belial T5 so Str 8 stuff can be a pain if he gets stuck taking a save vs it.

 

My last problem is Interrogator-Chaplains.  I have one in Terminator armor with the mace of redemption.  The model is probably my best painted model and I really like it.  It costs the same as a Dreadnought with multi-melta and heavy flamer in a drop pod tho.  So at a 2k points game would you take the Dreadnought or the Interrogator-Chaplain mounted with the knights?

 

I have basically benched my Deathwing Knights for the extra Scoring Heavy Flamer squad.  So I just kinda want others thoughts on this if possible.

[Pbenner]

The only person that I personally know that runs (Actually Ran) DWKs in 1850-2000 games was March10K.  We went round and round about this, but the fact that you're losing a scoring body can really hurt.

 

It's hard to answer questions like this without seeing a list.  

 

My Stock list is;

 

Belial

Command Squad in TDA w/Banner of Fortitude, DW Champ, Apothecary,

5x DW Squads - All Assaulty, mix of LCs and Hammers/SS, all with CML.  

 

in this list, I could trade out (1) Squad for DW Knights if I wanted to.

 

With the fact that you're looking at a Land Raider, I'm not 100% positive that you'll be able to handle them and still win scoring games.  With 3 or less scoring units, you'll have a hard time keep objectives under your control.  Yes, you'll have a 4th one in Big Guns type missions with the LRC, but that's only 1 in 6 games...

 

After dicussions with March10K on his list, he's moved into testing with a thundernator squad.  DWKs are great, but if they're in a ride, T5 doesn't REALLY help.  I still think that Scoring is king.  

 

Hope it helps.

 

Paul

[Maraech]

yeah my 1500 point list did well and it has 4 DW Squads Belial and a Landraider.  My 1750 Im basically adding another DW squad to it as I can still deep strike 4 squads and run belial and another squad in the LRC.  My problem is moving up to 2k while not changing my pasts lists that much because I'm trying to get everything painted.  

 

I could just add another CML squad and then have 6 DW squads Belial and a LRC then 1 of those CML squads would have to basically camp a deployment objective.  I don't think I can drop the LRC because then 2 many of my guys will just be standing around.  I do have another LRC I could add at the cost of dropping the DWV upgrades.

 

Yeah I don't know.

 

My squads are all basically a Heavy Weapon, Chain fist, Thunder hammer and Storm Shield, power fist / storm bolter, and power sword and Storm bolter.  I have 6 full Terminator squads and a couple squads of DWKs.  I can also field just about any heavy weapon options.

 

Looking at your list do you find the command squad worth it?  The stuff that hurts me the most ignores the banner because of it being str 8.  

[Pbenner]

My list is designed to be abusive early and remove as many threats as possible, and claim First Blood if at all possible.

 

(6) CMLs, (4) of which are Twin-Linked for a turn are a huge boon for me.

 

I also use belial as an anchor in the command squad, so I'm clustered early and then march up the field to slam into you.  I also make you come to me, and most armies don't have so much long range that I can't remove most of it and make you play the short field game.  Using cover and terrain to force you to swing at the same time as my hammers helps too.  

 

I find the banner more than pays for it's self most games.  Str 8+ it's useless against, but all it needs to do is save (3) terminators and it's paid for it's self.  

 

Every Play Style is different, but my rule of thumb is that anything your army has that needs to do a job needs to be done in pairs...

 

Paul

[SvenONE]

I actually just finished up a tournament using a list with them and a chaplain (seen here).

The list performed well, I went 1-2 but the games were extremely close. I had some misplays and bad rolling (whiffing an outflanked MMAB in melta range on a landraider full of terminators in their deployment zone = ). I played 3 other opponents who were in the tournament with their tourney lists and went 2-1 so I'm happy with that.

I actually use the chaplain for the same reason that you do, he's a really cool model, the knights I also use as a centerpiece in my army when I can. It's only once I started bumping their numbers higher that I really started to see them perform better. I've never run him without the MoR, it's so good on him, and you have the chance of getting the furious charge warlord trait which is HUGE.

The debate over knights vs th/ss will always rage on, but I think that's because they don't quite work in the base group of 5 the same way TH/SS do. The way I see it, you've got 2 options, buy a landraider, or field more of them. I choose to field more of them. At 10 strong and an int chaplain it's crazy expensive, but in my opinion a worthwhile investment. I think one of the reasons they are 'meh' after smite mode is because by that time they are usually down in numbers. When I was fielding squads of 5, I would regularly be smiting with 1 or 2 Knights at best, not only that, as soon as you're down to 2 and an IC you've lost your wall. Keeping that T5 up as often as possible is key.

Hatred is great insurance. Hitting on 3s with re-rolls while in smite mode is very nice, especially if your charged. Fielding with Belial is ok too, I like to give him the TH/SS and surround him with Knights.

Where they really shine is vs. CSM, it's sort of a shame they made them SO good against CSM and not overall. A squad of 10 took out a Daemon Prince, 2 squads of Plague Marines and brought 2 squads of CSM so low they had to keep fleeing. By the end only my chaplain was standing, but I had LB and STW.

I won't say they are better than TH/SS, and I also don't buy much stock in the importance of having terminators as troops unless you're running an all DW army. If that's your plan, then I'd say go with the TH/SS.

I personally wish the int-chaplain was say 10-15 points cheaper. The mace is really good and I don't see fielding him any other way so he becomes almsot as expensive as Belial, but in some cases I think he compliments a terminator squad better than Belial does.

[Maraech]

My list is designed to be abusive early and remove as many threats as possible, and claim First Blood if at all possible.

 

(6) CMLs, (4) of which are Twin-Linked for a turn are a huge boon for me.

 

I also use belial as an anchor in the command squad, so I'm clustered early and then march up the field to slam into you.  I also make you come to me, and most armies don't have so much long range that I can't remove most of it and make you play the short field game.  Using cover and terrain to force you to swing at the same time as my hammers helps too.  

 

I find the banner more than pays for it's self most games.  Str 8+ it's useless against, but all it needs to do is save (3) terminators and it's paid for it's self.  

 

Every Play Style is different, but my rule of thumb is that anything your army has that needs to do a job needs to be done in pairs...

 

Paul

 

I guess I have just had bad luck with the banner.  Honestly I would love to field an all DW list without a LRC.  The only reason I have been winning games is that I can put my entire army at their door step Turn 2 and turn 1 they just have my Land Raider to shoot at.  I'll keep playing around with it I guess.  

 

when I used the chaplain I always stuck him and 7 knights in a LRC and charged at the enemy.  That was when I ran a mixed wing tho.  Heldrakes in my area made me start using Deathwing only as at least then they couldn't wipe out my army and I could just ignore them and kill their troops.  There were so many people running 2 and 3 heldrakes that it was pointless for me to run bikes or marines.  That has pretty much gone away now tho as last tourney there was 1 CSM with 1 heldrake.  

 

GW why must we take belial lol.  I would much rather just use the Chaplain to unlock DWT as troops.

[march10k]

If you're already running knights, the interrogator is invaluable for making sure the smite doesn't whiff.  AFIK (I never ran Belial with my knights), Belial would not get T5 from the knights while fighting a challenge, so there's little synergy between him and knights.  Thundernators, on the other hand, since they are always S8 AP2, don't sufffer as much from the absence of an interrogator as the knights do.  I did switch my knights for another set of thundernators (no more heavy flamer, either, I really need four storm shields in a squad, although I'd likely put the flamer back in as the sixth model) because the knights are not scoring, and for no other reason.  Other than the chance to whiff on their smite, they outperformed the thundernators when I ran a squad of each.  T5 (while it lasts) and WS5 are huge, and S6 is pretty mean even against power armor.  

[SvenONE]

If you're already running knights, the interrogator is invaluable for making sure the smite doesn't whiff. AFIK (I never ran Belial with my knights), Belial would not get T5 from the knights while fighting a challenge, so there's little synergy between him and knights. Thundernators, on the other hand, since they are always S8 AP2, don't sufffer as much from the absence of an interrogator as the knights do. I did switch my knights for another set of thundernators (no more heavy flamer, either, I really need four storm shields in a squad, although I'd likely put the flamer back in as the sixth model) because the knights are not scoring, and for no other reason. Other than the chance to whiff on their smite, they outperformed the thundernators when I ran a squad of each. T5 (while it lasts) and WS5 are huge, and S6 is pretty mean even against power armor.

Yeah you're right about Belial and Fotress of Shields.

P.64 BRB: For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact only with each other. Basically the same reason you can't LOS challenge wounds.

The only thing Belial really gives Knights is the chance to deep strike precision I guess to guarantee a charge next turn (or be charged).

And actually I think the TH/SS would suffer slightly more than Knights without a Chaplain since the TH/SS are hitting on 4s (assuming Knights are smiting). But in the end, TH/SS terminators def don't go as many rounds against non-fearless enemies.

[march10k]

Aye, but the thundernators always have next round. whiff on your smite, and you're skrood!

[SvenONE]

Aye, but the thundernators always have next round. whiff on your smite, and you're skrood!

 

Exactly, and the other thing that can help them is Ezekiel.  If you're running your th/ss by way of their big bone chariot, put him in there and they'll be hitting on 3s, and most likely with prescience as well, and if you're lucky being invisible haha.

[Pbenner]

Want to buy rules for Ezekial in TDA that are officially sanctioned...

 

Paul

[Master Sheol]

I run a Squad of 7DWK with Attached IntChap in a LRC (Xmas gift from my GF plus FW DA doors)...

I like the look in the face of my opponent when I disembark them in front of his battle line... "Oh :cuss"... :P

 

P.S.: they are useful in DS too... Make them DWA on turn one with Belial and a 10 men DW squad and a DP full of veterans and your opponent won't know at what threat to shoot first... They will survive long enough to charge the biggest threat and save the day...

 

P.P.S.: the only thing I would change on my DWK is the smite mode... First I don't understand why the Champion flail doesn't have smite mode. Second i would change smite mode from 1 use only to selected use introducing a drawback like I1 (making DWK act like fast striking maniacs OR Thundernators according to the enemy they are facing)... This would make them perfect IMHO...

[march10k]

If I were going to change smite, I would make it equal to an MC smash...two S6 AP4 swings or one S10 AP2 swing.  And I agree about the knight master needing smite mode.  

 

/edit/  Aaaaugh!  I always forget that knights have hammer of wrath!!!!  I know that was random, but I've actually remembered the rule only 10% of the time!!! 

[Maraech]

If the knight captain doesn't get smite mode his Flail should actually have the Flail special rule to lower the enemies WS by D3.  If Belial also made Deathwing Knights troops I think they would be solid as is.  The biggest problem is them not being troops.

[Cactus]

As well as Hammer of Wrath the whole unit can make precision strikes in close combat. The one time my Deathwing knights have performed well (as opposed to adequately or incompetently) is when I've managed to remember both those rules. If only I'd remembered to use the smite in the final turn their performance would have been stellar!

[Pbenner]

Oh yes, that's right.  Good call, Cactus.

 

I'll be playing a game this weekend against someone in IL on my drive up for court, so I might end up bringing a squad of knights or to, since it's a :cusss and giggles game.  

 

1500 points if what we're playing, so I'm thinking I might go a little nuts.

 

Belial

Chaplain w/Relics (Mace and Roar)

DWK

DWT - Tactical with Assault Cannon

DWT - Tactical with Plasma Cannon

DWT - Tactical with Flamer

 

I think I can make it fit...

 

Paul

[SvenONE]

As well as Hammer of Wrath the whole unit can make precision strikes in close combat. The one time my Deathwing knights have performed well (as opposed to adequately or incompetently) is when I've managed to remember both those rules. If only I'd remembered to use the smite in the final turn their performance would have been stellar!

Yep, I always forgot too, another thing I do is usually refuse a challenge with the chaplain or the knight master, then let them smite/precision shot to their hearts content.

Edit: Sure you lose out on your chaplains attacks, but they still get hated from him.

[Alvena]

but even with precision shot you can't target the ?@$#! challenger ???

[march10k]

I think that's why you refuse the challenge?

[Pbenner]

March10K is 100% dead on;

 

 

If you refuse the challenge, then the model of your opponent's choice that is a character and in the combat sits the round.  He cannot be hurt for that round, even if there are roll-over wounds, but all other modifiers apply.  He will be back in on the next player turn, unless another challenge is refused.

 

Ideally, you'd use the knights + Smite + their Precisions to take out the opposing characters, then there is no more chance of a challenge.

 

Also, if a character is the last model standing in the combat, he cannot refuse the challenge, but in this case when there is an opposing character, a challenge can be good as it helps to save you from volume of wounds in a large blob, or can deny him use of his special weapon.

 

Best,

 

Paul

[Alvena]

mhh Instructive, thanks for the clarifications