Failed morale check on battlements

[RastlinD]

I was recently playing a game where my friend was using the Fortress of Redemption and had a Devastator Squad  up in the main tower. I shot at this unit and caused enough wounds to take a moral test which it then failed. My question is what happens next?

 

After consulting the rule book it looks like they jump off the battlements? This does not make much sense to me in game mechanics terms. This maybe my 5th edition coming back to me but we played it as he rolled his fall back movement and then for every 3 inches he would move between each section of the building. I know this is wrong just looking for any type of clarification on this rule. Does that mean my unit at the top of a 3 story ruin would also jump off the building to fall back if it failed a morale test? Thanks!

[Dam13n]

Abandoning the Battlements - BRB page 95 (Buildings)
"If a unit falls back while on a battlement... snip ...they must jump for it! Resolve this exactly as described for Leaping Down (see above)."
- You have to jump for it if fleeing when on battlements - Ouch!

Gravity - Nature's Downward Express - BRB page 99 (Ruins)
- "A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building* can always elect to leap down to a lower level."
- You are falling back, so cannot choose to jump for it, you descend one level for each 3" of your fall back distance until you reach the floor then go the remaining distance as normal.
*confusing as it's listed in the ruins section of the rules, good old GW

So that's the RAW.

[Lysere]

Last time I read the rules it seemed quite clear that a unit on the battlements of a building that failed morale had to jump. You don't choose to leap down but are forced too leap down. Note the rules for ruins don't apply since it is a building. Also as for what happens when you jump off, look up impact test.

 

Might be wrong since I haven't used those rules in a while, but I remember quite well you can't "descend" through a building since there aren't multiple levels for it. You are either in it, on top of it, or outside of it. No floors to fall back through or anything.

[Kristoff]

Might be wrong since I haven't used those rules in a while, but I remember quite well you can't "descend" through a building since there aren't multiple levels for it. You are either in it, on top of it, or outside of it. No floors to fall back through or anything.

Actually, buildings DO have levels to them, but they are handled differently than Ruins and don't matter to the question at hand because if you are in them, it's like you are in a Transport and unaffected by Morale checks anyway. Battlements aren't in them, but on them.

 

 

*Titles like this always make me think of Dark Angel and Traitor Marines. 40K games do not have any Moral Checks (no 'e'), but the fluff has them epicly failed all over the place.

[RastlinD]

Kristoff -

 

Sorry about the spelling mistake, that was embarrassing. However, I am confused we have two different answers so far both quoting the rulebook.

[Kristoff]

RastlinD, on 19 Feb 2014 - 19:52, said:

Kristoff -

 

Sorry about the spelling mistake, that was embarrassing.

Never mind about that. It's all in good fun. I understand that it's a typo, but it's such a FUN typo with a lot of interesting connotations in the 40K universe.

RastlinD, on 19 Feb 2014 - 19:52, said:

However, I am confused we have two different answers so far both quoting the rulebook.

Well, you are forced to Fall Back from the Battlement, which is usually a somewhat disordered process, and not given a choice.

 

Dam13n's third line that says, "You are falling back, so cannot choose to jump for it..." is actually a misquote. It actually says, "A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level..."

[Dam13n]

Kristoff - Please read what I wrote. What you've quoted from me isn't in itself a BRB quote.

I quoted (see "") the rule then added an interpretation.

(My post was organised as: reference, quoted rule, interpretation for each question. Not that difficult to understand, surely.)

You quoted my interpretation, not the rule.

Making statements about me misquoting, while simultaneously misquoting me is rather ironic, don't you think.

[Gentlemanloser]

Damien, seconding Lysere here.

 

The first quoted rule tell you you are forced to Jump.

 

The second quoted rule tells us we cannot chose whether to descend normally or Jump.

 

Which is correct.  We cannot choose.  We are forced to Jump.

 

The two rules don't contradict each other.

[Morollan]

If you're using the updated rules from Stronghold Assault, they appear to change things slightly.

 

 

Battlements are treated as the upper levels of a ruin and follow all the rules for ruins as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, with the following exceptions (nothing relevant to this discussion)

 

Given that the section quoted from Page 95 about abandoning battlements falls under the Buildings rules (which no longer apply) I'm not entirely sure what happens. What is the procedure for falling back in ruins?

[Dam13n]

There are 2 questions here.

 

1 - what happens when falling back from a battlement on a building - BRB states you jump for it.

2 - what happens when falling back from the upper level of a ruin - BRB states you climb down.

 

I'm not using Stronghold Assault, I'm using the BRB.  (Because I fail to see the point in buying a supplement I have no intention of using, and if rumours are true, the BRB is due to be updated with those rules at some point in the future anyway.)

 

From what Morollan has kindly referenced, it seems that the battlement rules have changed from what they are in the BRB - if you are using stronghold assault.  In which case you would clamber down the side of the building.  However, as there are often no levels to a building (as there are on ruins), you would have to roll equal to ,or higher than, the height of the building in order to move at all.  Just imagine the Fortress of Redemption and I think you can see what I mean.

 

I therefore prefer the BRB rule of jumping for it, as it makes more sense (plus, models going splat is funny).

[Gentlemanloser]

I dislike Stronghold mixing two types of Buildings in a single Terrain element (a Bunker with Battlements is both a Building and a Ruin...) for this exact reason.

[Morollan]

At least it explains why a battlement only gives a 4+ cover save

[Kristoff]

I dislike Stronghold mixing two types of Buildings in a single Terrain element (a Bunker with Battlements is both a Building and a Ruin...) for this exact reason.

Battlements are mixed in the BRB, too. The difference here is the mixture.

Kristoff - Please read what I wrote. What you've quoted from me isn't in itself a BRB quote.

 

I quoted (see "") the rule then added an interpretation.

 

(My post was organised as: reference, quoted rule, interpretation for each question. Not that difficult to understand, surely.)

 

You quoted my interpretation, not the rule.

 

Making statements about me misquoting, while simultaneously misquoting me is rather ironic, don't you think.

Apologies, then. The line in question seemed to be presented as part of the same paragraph, due to the same indicative mark, lack of line spacing, and lack of indication that you were presenting a conclusion in the sentence. To add to my confusion, it seemed to pretty much match the sentence I referenced.

[Seahawk]

SA has been the best thing to happen to buildings, and hasn't changed what happens when you fail Morale.

 

You jump.

[Morollan]

SA has been the best thing to happen to buildings, and hasn't changed what happens when you fail Morale.

 

You jump.

 

Where does it say that in the rules though (assuming use of the updated rules in SA)?

[Gentlemanloser]

Battlements are mixed in the BRB, too. The difference here is the mixture.

 

Battlements are parts of Buildings in the BRB.  Not a separate category of Terrain (Ruins, Forests/Jungles & Woods, Rivers/Lakes & Pools, Debris, Artifacts, Unique)

 

The SA rules give you a single bit of Terrain that is made up of two separate categories.  The terrain is both a Building and a Ruin.

 

And the BRB rules don't cover that.

 

 

Where does it say that in the rules though (assuming use of the updated rules in SA)?

 

This is how I'd assume the rules would work.

 

1: There are no specific rules for falling back movement in ruins, so you use standard movement rules.

 

2: Therefore, you move down levels with 3" of fallback level per floor.

 

3: If the Battlement is only 3" from the ground, this is fine.

 

4: If the Battlement is more than 3" form the ground, you can't move down using a fallback move (as this would take you inside a building...) so have to Jump, using the "Gravity - Nature's Downwards Express" rules.

[Seahawk]

You continue to use the rules for buildings and battlements. The part for ruins is so that awkward units like artillery and jump infantry are legally allowed on the battlements.

A battlement is a battlement is a battlement, and the battlement rules say you jump, regardless of whether it's a "ruin" or "building" (page 95). GML, buildings do not have floors; never have. You don't have to choose which floor you're firing at for blast weapons, and you certain don't use floors for movement. 

 

"If a unit falls back while on a battlement...they must jump for it! Resolve this exactly as described for Leaping Down."

 

That's kinda inescapable wording, regardless of terrain type. Note also that you don't make a standard fall back move; all you do is leap down. That nonsense on page 99 isn't even relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

Amusingly, for a squad on top of the tower in the Fortress of Redemption, as per the OP, most likely they all would splatter themselves on the ground below.

 

"It's all too horrible!" *thud*

[Gentlemanloser]

A battlement is a battlement is a battlement, and the battlement rules

say you jump, regardless of whether it's a "ruin" or "building" (page

95). GML, buildings do not have floors; never have. You don't have to

choose which floor you're firing at for blast weapons, and you certain

don't use floors for movement.

 

Those are rules for Buildings.

 

With SA, battlements are Ruins, not Buildings.

 

As a building, you cannot embark it when falling back.  You can also have Multipart Buildings, if the 'floors' are large enough.

 

"If a unit falls back while on a battlement...they must jump for it! Resolve this exactly as described for Leaping Down."

 

That's a Building rule.  It would be superceeded by SA shifting Battlements to Ruins.

 

As SA states Battlements follow all the rules for Ruins.

 

"Rules for multipart buildings no longer apply to Battlements"

 

"Battlements are treated as the upper level of a Ruin and follow all the rules for Ruins"

 

Edit: Pre SA;

 

"A building with Battlements is a multipart building"

 

It's not any more with SA...

[Seahawk]

No, they are rules for battlements, not buildings or ruins.

 

Otherwise, you are tossing out all the rules on pages 95 and 96, including Reaching the Roof/from outside/Jump and Jet Pack units/Leaping Down, Battlements and Building Damage/abandon the battlements!, and Assaulting the Battlements.

 

Really, you're going to claim all that? That's an awful lot. 

 

It also says "Whilst all battlements are built on top of another building, battlements are not themselves treated as buildings."

 

and

 

"Battlements are treated as one large Access Point for their building, meaning that a unit inside can disembark onto the battlements, or embark from the battlements."

 

So, if we've thrown out all the other rules because they're "building" rules, how do models now get onto battlements from outside, other than jumpers? 

 

 

However, it looks like you just may be right. There's:

 

"and each unit on the battlements...must then immediately make a 6" move in order to move off of the battlements (this movement is not slowed by difficult terrain). Any models that cannot move off of the battlements are removed as casualties."

 

When a building blows, they make a 6" move. Example as OP: Fortress of Redemption tower. If anybody is on the roof when this happens, they die. Ouch.

 

Well, it looks like they did axe those two pages. That means:

 

- No more external access to battlements for walking models.

- No more leaping down when fleeing.

- No more throwing grenades when assaulting the building.

 

Actually, jeezum crow. Any unit on a battlement that flees just straight up dies. Why?

 

- You can't embark into a building when you flee on the roof. 

- The only way off the roof is embarking into the building.

- If you cannot perform a full Fall Back move in any direction without doubling back, you're destroyed.

 

 

Oops.

 

 

So, BRB: You leap for it.

 

SA: You die.

[Gentlemanloser]

Yup.

 

SA listed those exceptions, but didn't cover everything.

 

Edit;

 

Actually, as said above, Gravity is also an option;

 

 

If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down.

 

This would bypass embarking into the Building, which isn't allowed, and is a Ruin rule.

[Morollan]

How hard would it have been to have added a few lines into Stronghold Assault "Units that Fall Back whilst on Battlements do so through the building to which the battlement is attached. This is an exception to the rule that prevents models from embarking on vehicles or building whilst falling back. If this is not possible, for example if the building is already occupied by another unit, they must jump for it (see Leaping Down on page 95 of rulebook)" ?

[Gentlemanloser]

Not hard at all...

 

Playtesting and Editors, and whatnot...