Honda Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I just finished reading "Betrayer" (loved) and, and, Ok, I just have to say this right now. I FREAKING HATE EREBUS. HATE HATE HATE HATE HIM. <catches breath>It's not often that I like "bad" guy characters (Alpha Legion is totes loyalist you guys!), but I have grown to appreciate Sevetar, and A-D-B's treatment of Khârn and Argel Tal was very interesting. Even though AT is killing good guys all over the place, there's a certain empathy for him. You are almost hoping that he redeems himself... +++ SPOILER +++ ...and then Erebus kills him. That totally hacked me off. I think my Zeal knob is cranked over to 27 anytime I think about Word Bearers. If I only had one reason to begin 30K, it is to live for the day when I actually get to line up against the WB and prosecute their total extinction. Nicely of course, with a smile on my face. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 And now you know why everyone with a grimdark fetish loves A D-B. B) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600416 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Erebus is the most successfully written character in the series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 While Erebus is extremely well written, my vote goes to Khârn. The character goes from a blind "blood and skulls" chaos champion we grew up with to a character with so much depth while still having that "blood and skulls" side that we feel sorry for him. And yes, Erebus is the most hated character in the universe. I know guys that have bought the model just so they can roll the dice to kill him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600460 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 The fact alone that Erebus can provoke such emotions means that he is indeed one of the most succesfully written characters. Personally I like characters that are difficult to like - characters that have no redeeming features. The only way to justify their actions is to see things their way (another reason why I like DAs ;) ) Both Sevatar and Khârn have redeeming qualities, because on some level they have a tragic story or they aspire to some higher values or purpose. But not Erebus! To me he epitomises Chaos in all it's true glory - forget Alpha Legion, Erebus behind everything! :D Oh, and Argel Tal? He had it coming, the minute he ignored his Primarch's advice to stay away from Erebus and instead made a deal with him... The scene when he died by Erebus hand was a moment of HH perfection! Now I'm off to paint some Word Bearers... :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Anything that can provoke strong emotions is well written? Truly, Codex Space Marines (5thEd) must have been the greatest piece of literature the modern age ever produced. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I can't really say I've seen higher aspirations for Sevatar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600509 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Anything that can provoke strong emotions is well written? Truly, Codex Space Marines (5thEd) must have been the greatest piece of literature the modern age ever produced. :rolleyes: Let me elaborate: The fact that the emotions are provoked by the fictional character as if he's real is the success of the writer. The reason people don't like Erebus is because of his excellent depiction as an evil, double-crossing, cowardly and self serving yet powerful individual with no redeeming features. Not because is a bit a bad literature. This is my view on Erebous. Not the 5th edition SM Codex or anything else that is not the subject of discussion of this thread. Let's not derail this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Fair enough. Although I liked Erebus better in Horus Rising and The First Heretic, when he had some redeeming qualities (namely, courage & intelligence) to go with his evilness. To me, a good villain (oxymoron) can't be just cowardice, treachery, stupidity, and so forth all wrapped in a bundle and given a black hat, he/she/it needs some positive aspects (Hans Gruber's intelligence, Darth Vader's courage, Clubber Lang's determination and drive, etc) so the villain can carry out their evil more effectively. I'm concerned that the recent trend with Erebus is to write him as an absolute worm who fails at everything, so readers can have their catharsis of watching Erebus be an utter worm that fails at everything. Is that a better summation of my issues with Destiny's Hand? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 I can't really say I've seen higher aspirations for Sevatar. I would agree. Sevetar is exceptional because of his desire to remain loyal to his primarch and not letting anything keep him from his loyalty, even if it is misplaced. Khârn I liked, if for no other reason than A-D-B gave us a reason to respect his intentions with what I would consider a plausible explanation for their rage, even though the unintended consequences of their actions are destroying them. Angron I have no pity or empathy for. Argel Tal, for all his inhumanity, still sought redemption and in his own way, retain his honor. His loyalty to Cyrene was an interesting counterpoint. Lorgar is just a more hideous and powerful version of Commodus (from Gladiator), I hear Joaquin Phoenix's whiney voice every time he speaks. But Erebus...I so wanted Khârn to finish him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Lorgar has been the strongest written Primarch for the whole series though. Horus has been tarnished by too many authors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 HA!HA!HA! Lorgar! Wanted to see Khârn finish off Erebus so bad. That would have been nice yes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600591 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Honda, I completely agree with you. I do not "love to hate" Erebus. I simply despise the little warp-scutch, and the fact that he is guaranteed to survive the Heresy irritates me immensely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Fair enough. Although I liked Erebus better in Horus Rising and The First Heretic, when he had some redeeming qualities (namely, courage & intelligence) to go with his evilness. To me, a good villain (oxymoron) can't be just cowardice, treachery, stupidity, and so forth all wrapped in a bundle and given a black hat, he/she/it needs some positive aspects (Hans Gruber's intelligence, Darth Vader's courage, Clubber Lang's determination and drive, etc) so the villain can carry out their evil more effectively. I'm concerned that the recent trend with Erebus is to write him as an absolute worm who fails at everything, so readers can have their catharsis of watching Erebus be an utter worm that fails at everything. Is that a better summation of my issues with Destiny's Hand? I get what you are saying, but to me this is kind of what I expect to see of these types from the perspectives of others. To Leia, Darth Vader is the vicious, cruel man, the epitome of all things she despises in the Galactic Empire, who hunted her and tortured her. Finding out this man is her biological father, even though neither knew at the time, only exacerbates that. Yes, he also had the courage to overcome his own darkness when someone finally blew life into his last spark of light. But to Leia, this would do nothing to change her opinion or feelings for the man. And I feel this applies to Erebus as well. We are not seeing the true Ere us, but the biased image that the perspectives of others see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I love to hate. Then again, I'm one of those weirdos who uses hate to keep me warm on those cold, Florida nights. I get what you are saying, but to me this is kind of what I expect to see of these types from the perspectives of others. To Leia, Darth Vader is the vicious, cruel man, the epitome of all things she despises in the Galactic Empire, who hunted her and tortured her. Finding out this man is her biological father, even though neither knew at the time, only exacerbates that. Yes, he also had the courage to overcome his own darkness when someone finally blew life into his last spark of light. But to Leia, this would do nothing to change her opinion or feelings for the man.Don't ever read the EU. Although since its no longer canon, maybe you're in the clear..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Lorgar has been the strongest written Primarch for the whole series though. I would definitely agree with this sentiment, though would offer that Fulgrim is as equally well defined, though perhaps not as extensively. I think that's one of the great attractions to the HH series, in that it is easy to find points of perspective to identify with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600735 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctus Cornix Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Oh look. Another Erebus hate thread. How quaint. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Fine, let me swap it to his Father, then.... ++++++SPOILER+++++++ Even more than the death of Argel Tal, I was truly and utterly gutted when Lhorke was killed trying to save Angron from Lorgar and, well, himself. Lorgar is the lowest form of life to me right now; his solution to 'helping' Angron was to swap his crack addiction for heroin, then smile and say "See? all better?" All I wanted was for Lhorke, (such an amazing character for the short time we see him) to close his claws around Lorgars' skull and squeeze the stupid out of him, the old fashioned way. I actually had a moment where I debated flying to Ireland, throwing myself on A D-B's doorstep, and howling "Why?!?!" at the top of my lungs. That the sign of a good author, there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I love to hate. Then again, I'm one of those weirdos who uses hate to keep me warm on those cold, Florida nights. I get what you are saying, but to me this is kind of what I expect to see of these types from the perspectives of others. To Leia, Darth Vader is the vicious, cruel man, the epitome of all things she despises in the Galactic Empire, who hunted her and tortured her. Finding out this man is her biological father, even though neither knew at the time, only exacerbates that. Yes, he also had the courage to overcome his own darkness when someone finally blew life into his last spark of light. But to Leia, this would do nothing to change her opinion or feelings for the man. Don't ever read the EU. Although since its no longer canon, maybe you're in the clear.....Putting off-topic response in spoiler: I used to pretty exclusively (40k was my escape), I only didn't mention those aspects of it because not everybody has read the EU. But bringing it up, it took what two decades? Of people trying to convince Leia to let go of her hate before she finally does. And the EU was never canon. George Lucas' work was canon, and the rest existed in the same limbo 40k does. However, now Disney is changing that I hear, to link it all as one. @1000heathens: AGREED. So, so much agreeing going on right now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
helterskelter Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It's like that scene in gears 3 with dom. Anything that makes you go noooooooo out loud is a winner. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Fine, let me swap it to his Father, then.... ++++++SPOILER+++++++ Even more than the death of Argel Tal, I was truly and utterly gutted when Lhorke was killed trying to save Angron from Lorgar and, well, himself. Lorgar is the lowest form of life to me right now; his solution to 'helping' Angron was to swap his crack addiction for heroin, then smile and say "See? all better?" All I wanted was for Lhorke, (such an amazing character for the short time we see him) to close his claws around Lorgars' skull and squeeze the stupid out of him, the old fashioned way. I actually had a moment where I debated flying to Ireland, throwing myself on A D-B's doorstep, and howling "Why?!?!" at the top of my lungs. That the sign of a good author, there. Similarly, I couldn't but help feel the death of the World Eaters Librarians, especially the one attached to the 8th, who was desperately trying to save their Primarch, who cares nothing for them, and who do everything they can for their brothers, who they can never relate to. I'm so going to have a Librarian in my World Eater army! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600779 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Hell, I'm tempted to make a rogue War Hound named Diego Montoya, for any games against the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Fine, let me swap it to his Father, then.... ++++++SPOILER+++++++ Even more than the death of Argel Tal, I was truly and utterly gutted when Lhorke was killed trying to save Angron from Lorgar and, well, himself. Lorgar is the lowest form of life to me right now; his solution to 'helping' Angron was to swap his crack addiction for heroin, then smile and say "See? all better?" All I wanted was for Lhorke, (such an amazing character for the short time we see him) to close his claws around Lorgars' skull and squeeze the stupid out of him, the old fashioned way. I actually had a moment where I debated flying to Ireland, throwing myself on A D-B's doorstep, and howling "Why?!?!" at the top of my lungs. That the sign of a good author, there. Similarly, I couldn't but help feel the death of the World Eaters Librarians, especially the one attached to the 8th, who was desperately trying to save their Primarch, who cares nothing for them, and who do everything they can for their brothers, who they can never relate to. I'm so going to have a Librarian in my World Eater army! The 12th Legion may be degenerating faster and faster, but surely at least some of them would take a look at what Angron has become and have a heel realization: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelRealization And what about Lotara Sarrin and her loyalties?: "So, Lotara, that Librarian who saved you from getting shot by the guys who should have protected the flagship? Angron ate him. And what about old Lhorke, who saved your ass at Armatura? Oh yeah, Angron ate him too. And by the way, have you taken a look at Angron lately? He's making the walls of your ship turn to flesh! You suuuure that you've chosen the right side in this civil war?" Unless my memory cores have corroded completely, I recall ADB posting on this very forum that during the Heresy several people on the loyalist side will switch sides, and vice versa. In fact, as the Heresy progresses and the taint of Chaos becomes more and more apparent, shouldn't there be at least some traitor marines who think that they've made a mistake?: "Traitor Marine Not Hopped Up On Chaos Fumes takes a look at Gal Vorbak, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, etc, and goes: "This is not what I signed up for!"" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 We already have one: Narek. When we first see him in Vulkan Lives, which is roughly one year after the Heresy, he is a Word Bearer that still believes the Emperor is a God, but isn't a God worth following. But on the same token, he seems to have a Night Lord approach to Chaos in that the Chaos Gods aren't beings to be worshipped, but bartered with. As such, he is sickened by the rampant mutation that is becoming widespread throughout the XVII. Two years down the road in Unremembered Empire, he has gone back completely to worshipping the Emperor, but for all intents and purposes is "renegade" as his only concern is purifying the XVII and he hates the Loyalists as much as the Traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600808 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 But will we see enough of them to justify building an army Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/#findComment-3600812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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