Daemon2027 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 The problem is that when a traitor switches sides the only person who will take him in is Malcador and only if he can be fitted into his little gang of men. I think there will be many traitors who will disagree with the way their legions are going but will have no choice to go with the flow. Or turn there back on both sides, which, at then end of the day, will still result in them becoming renegades and thus CSM, in the eyes of the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda Posted February 22, 2014 Author Share Posted February 22, 2014 Even more than the death of Argel Tal, I was truly and utterly guttedwhen Lhorke was killed trying to save Angron from Lorgar and, well, himself. Lorgar is the lowest form of life to me right now; his solution to 'helping' Angron was to swap his crack addiction for heroin, then smile and say "See? all better?" All I wanted was for Lhorke, (such an amazing character for the short time we see him) to close his claws around Lorgars' skull and squeeze the stupid out of him, the old fashioned way. I actually had a moment where I debated flying to Ireland, throwing myself on A D-B's doorstep, and howling "Why?!?!" at the top of my lungs. <See, in my rage I leave out other critically important points> Well, I would have had the plane seat right next to you. :) I think that's what really makes "Betrayer" and for that matter, "The First Heretic", such excellent stories. Knowing what we know ahead of time, there's no reason to like any aspect of these chapters (from the white hat perspective) and yet A-D-B brings out those nuggets...and kills us with them. Also agree about Lotarra Sarrin. She's too excellent a character for me to think that A-D-B is done with her yet. Which means I've probably sealed her doom. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 *snip* Two years down the road in Unremembered Empire, he has gone back completely to worshipping the Emperor, but for all intents and purposes is "renegade" as his only concern is purifying the XVII and he hates the Loyalists as much as the Traitors. Yet, when cornered, he laid down his arms and surrendered peacefully, though he had every reason, and plenty of bloody means of escape. He was not willing to spill loyalist blood. That speaks volumes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperialis_Dominatus Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 The fact that the emotions are provoked by the fictional character as if he's real is the success of the writer. The reason people don't like Erebus is because of his excellent depiction as an evil, double-crossing, cowardly and self serving yet powerful individual with no redeeming features. True. Any character that evokes such hate as if he were someone you had met in real life and witnessed the deficiencies of is very, very well written. Sure as sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 The problem is that when a traitor switches sides the only person who will take him in is Malcador and only if he can be fitted into his little gang of men. I think there will be many traitors who will disagree with the way their legions are going but will have no choice to go with the flow. Or turn there back on both sides, which, at then end of the day, will still result in them becoming renegades and thus CSM, in the eyes of the Imperium.Not really enough basis for that though. Te only Traitor we've seen switch sides is Narek, and he got taken in by Guilliman. Albeit as a prisoner. Malcador has taken in those from across all the Legions that he sees as necessary, which so far includes 2 XVI, one World Eater, one Salamander, one Ultramarine, one Death Guard, and a few others. With Loken being the last recruit. Unless I've missed a story, none of these have switched sides, but were Loyalists through and through. Partially one of the reasons I don't agree that Garro is Janus when Mortarion describes him[Janus] as seeking redemption. Garro has nothing to seek redemption for. He stayed loyal. Not to mention the whole "not a psyker" bit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I don't see why if a chapter of X traitor legion pulls into orbit above Macragge and requests an audience with somebody to affirm their loyalty to the Emperor the loyalists would turn them down. They are the outnumbered ones. Given that this is exactly what happens in Unremembered Empire, I don't see why it's to far out of the realms of possibility. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600879 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 They would be considered traitors by the wider imperium though, just through association with their parent Legions. Narek may be the only one we have seen so far, but I hope we will see some other dissenting voices. Doesn't necessarily mean they will switch sides but they may question the direction of there primaries/legion leaders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 The problem is that when a traitor switches sides the only person who will take him in is Malcador and only if he can be fitted into his little gang of men. I think there will be many traitors who will disagree with the way their legions are going but will have no choice to go with the flow. Or turn there back on both sides, which, at then end of the day, will still result in them becoming renegades and thus CSM, in the eyes of the Imperium.Not really enough basis for that though. Te only Traitor we've seen switch sides is Narek, and he got taken in by Guilliman. Albeit as a prisoner. Malcador has taken in those from across all the Legions that he sees as necessary, which so far includes 2 XVI, one World Eater, one Salamander, one Ultramarine, one Death Guard, and a few others. With Loken being the last recruit. Unless I've missed a story, none of these have switched sides, but were Loyalists through and through. Partially one of the reasons I don't agree that Garro is Janus when Mortarion describes him[Janus] as seeking redemption. Garro has nothing to seek redemption for. He stayed loyal. Not to mention the whole "not a psyker" bit. What happened to the rest of Garro's bunch? He had over 70 Death Guard with him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600890 Share on other sites More sharing options...
deathspectersgt7 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I don't see why if a chapter of X traitor legion pulls into orbit above Macragge and requests an audience with somebody to affirm their loyalty to the Emperor the loyalists would turn them down. They are the outnumbered ones. Given that this is exactly what happens in Unremembered Empire, I don't see why it's to far out of the realms of possibility. Now this is something I could sink my teeth in.I would gladly do 30k with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The problem is that when a traitor switches sides the only person who will take him in is Malcador and only if he can be fitted into his little gang of men. I think there will be many traitors who will disagree with the way their legions are going but will have no choice to go with the flow. Or turn there back on both sides, which, at then end of the day, will still result in them becoming renegades and thus CSM, in the eyes of the Imperium.Not really enough basis for that though. Te only Traitor we've seen switch sides is Narek, and he got taken in by Guilliman. Albeit as a prisoner. Malcador has taken in those from across all the Legions that he sees as necessary, which so far includes 2 XVI, one World Eater, one Salamander, one Ultramarine, one Death Guard, and a few others. With Loken being the last recruit. Unless I've missed a story, none of these have switched sides, but were Loyalists through and through. Partially one of the reasons I don't agree that Garro is Janus when Mortarion describes him[Janus] as seeking redemption. Garro has nothing to seek redemption for. He stayed loyal. Not to mention the whole "not a psyker" bit. What happened to the rest of Garro's bunch? He had over 70 Death Guard with him. They actually turned out to be *you guessed it* Alpha Legionnaires. "The next installment in the Horus heresy thriller will be called DEUS EX MACHINA and will feature the Alpha-" *BLAMMO* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine God Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I don't see why if a chapter of X traitor legion pulls into orbit above Macragge and requests an audience with somebody to affirm their loyalty to the Emperor the loyalists would turn them down. They are the outnumbered ones. Given that this is exactly what happens in Unremembered Empire, I don't see why it's to far out of the realms of possibility. Please could you change the above post to "Y traitor legion." The 10th never turned! @1000heathens - Nice. "My name is Diego Montoyah! You killed my Father, now prepare to Die!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600918 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carach Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Fair enough. Although I liked Erebus better in Horus Rising and The First Heretic, when he had some redeeming qualities (namely, courage & intelligence) to go with his evilness. To me, a good villain (oxymoron) can't be just cowardice, treachery, stupidity, and so forth all wrapped in a bundle and given a black hat, he/she/it needs some positive aspects (Hans Gruber's intelligence, Darth Vader's courage, Clubber Lang's determination and drive, etc) so the villain can carry out their evil more effectively. I'm concerned that the recent trend with Erebus is to write him as an absolute worm who fails at everything, so readers can have their catharsis of watching Erebus be an utter worm that fails at everything. Is that a better summation of my issues with Destiny's Hand? think thats just because erebus is going into that phase where things are fast spinning out of his control. and he does not like the idea of no longer being the real architect of heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The problem is that when a traitor switches sides the only person who will take him in is Malcador and only if he can be fitted into his little gang of men. I think there will be many traitors who will disagree with the way their legions are going but will have no choice to go with the flow. Or turn there back on both sides, which, at then end of the day, will still result in them becoming renegades and thus CSM, in the eyes of the Imperium. Not really enough basis for that though. Te only Traitor we've seen switch sides is Narek, and he got taken in by Guilliman. Albeit as a prisoner. Malcador has taken in those from across all the Legions that he sees as necessary, which so far includes 2 XVI, one World Eater, one Salamander, one Ultramarine, one Death Guard, and a few others. With Loken being the last recruit. Unless I've missed a story, none of these have switched sides, but were Loyalists through and through. Partially one of the reasons I don't agree that Garro is Janus when Mortarion describes him[Janus] as seeking redemption. Garro has nothing to seek redemption for. He stayed loyal. Not to mention the whole "not a psyker" bit. What happened to the rest of Garro's bunch? He had over 70 Death Guard with him.Most of them died in the fight with Grulgor and the proto-plague Marines and those who survived were killed by Decius, judging by the parts in the audio where it says that his men are dead. Don't ask me when it happened because I was under the impression at least a couple survived Decius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600937 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I get the feeling there are a few more Knights Errant off Camera doing things, with a core of Deathguard ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Or they became part of something else, like more bodies to man the walls on Terra. No really reason for them all to soon the Knights-Errant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3600957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic of Dorn Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 The problem is that when a traitor switches sides the only person who will take him in is Malcador and only if he can be fitted into his little gang of men. I think there will be many traitors who will disagree with the way their legions are going but will have no choice to go with the flow. Or turn there back on both sides, which, at then end of the day, will still result in them becoming renegades and thus CSM, in the eyes of the Imperium.Not really enough basis for that though. Te only Traitor we've seen switch sides is Narek, and he got taken in by Guilliman. Albeit as a prisoner. Malcador has taken in those from across all the Legions that he sees as necessary, which so far includes 2 XVI, one World Eater, one Salamander, one Ultramarine, one Death Guard, and a few others. With Loken being the last recruit. Unless I've missed a story, none of these have switched sides, but were Loyalists through and through. Partially one of the reasons I don't agree that Garro is Janus when Mortarion describes him[Janus] as seeking redemption. Garro has nothing to seek redemption for. He stayed loyal. Not to mention the whole "not a psyker" bit. Here is a thought...What is Janus is Garro, seeking redemtion for the heresy his legion committed... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3603081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Cool. Now, I may sound pedantic, but is there a quote showing he is a psyker seeking redemption for his Legion? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3603091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic of Dorn Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Not that I am aware of, but then again, there is nothing saying that the Marines that Malcador was recruiting were all psykers either. They all have "Inquisitoral skills" (I think that what he called it in Flight of the Eisenstein). As of right now, there is no information on what Garro did or become after he collected Malcadors group and it is all in speculation. That is what makes it fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3603708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Didn't the DG apothecary stay on luna trying to find a cure for nurgles rot? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287138-i-need-to-get-this-off-my-chest/page/2/#findComment-3603720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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