Question : process of a Founding ?

[GreyCrow]

Hello guys !

 

I come to this hall seeking answer regarding the process of Foundings. I have scoured the Codex Astartes and the Interwebway for information, but what I have so far is very light and not sufficiently detailed for my appetite.

 

A few questions remain, and I hope I can find solace here ! Without further due, here they are :

 

1) Why is a new space marine Chapter created ? Is it for a specific purpose, or just to reinforce the ranks of the Astartes ?

2) If it is for a purpose, what are they usually ?

3) How important is gene-seed in the process ? Is it chosen for specific traits, or out of availability for cultivating enough for 1000 Astartes at the time ?

4) Where are the senior officers chosen from ? Are they from parent Chapters who join the new Chapter ? Are they elected from promising recruits and groomed for command ?

5) How is the training process done ? Mostly every new Astartes starts as a scout, so do they all start at the same time then are assigned to a company once they pass the trials ? Or is it done batch per batch, with the 1st company starting out as the eldest of the new recruits in a founding ?

6) How are heraldry and customs defined ? Is the culture passed on from senior members originally from other Chapters ? Or is it acquired over time ?

 

Thanks a lot for your time and answers ! There isn't much information available for the early days of a space marine chapter, and since I am in the process of creating my DIY one, I would like some thought frame so I can go in the right direction !

 

Cheers !

[auwombat]

Hiya Grey Crow

I have been searching for some of the same answers you seek, look at my post 2nd founding Q

I am particularly interested in the 2nd founding as i wish to build up my Ultra Marines Honour Company and am trying to put together the fluff that applies to it.

to answer your questions to the best of my know how and I am very new at this!

1 After Roboute Gilliman wrote the codex Astartes no single anyone was to have control of more than 1,000 SM to prevent a repeat of the Horus Heresy.So Iam assuming that as chapters grow and have more recruits than they can use/absorb they branch of into new chapters still closely related and I am sure closely allied to parent chapter. By the way it takes 55 years to produce enough Astartes for a new chapter. so no it doesnt happen over night.

2 no I dont think so

3 Gene seed is very important which is why Ultra marines have the biggest number of successor chapters as it is the most pure of all!

4 as I understand the fluff when a new chapter is created a core of officers and marines are sent to start their training and forge the new chapter, makes sense for any army in any time in history ( one of the few things GW got right IMO )

5 see above, but yes a core and build on that.

6 this is the best part, every chapter is formed by its core, its planet, and the battles it fights as is any unit in any army, so yes to both your ideas

hope this helps a little bit Crow :) 

[Brother Tyler]

1) Why is a new space marine Chapter created ? Is it for a specific purpose, or just to reinforce the ranks of the Astartes ?

2) If it is for a purpose, what are they usually ?

There are a number of reasons for a new founding. These range from bolstering the ranks of the Chapters after combat losses (numerous Chapters have been lost over the millennia) to a need to create a Chapter as a defense against a specific threat (whether a xenos race in a certain region of space or some foe that requires special training/equipment) to the Emperor's Tarot indicating that some threat will present itself in the future and that some as-yet-nonexistent Chapter can face it and defeat it. And then sometimes there are secret agendas and goals behind powerful institutions who secretly create their own Chapters for their own reasons (i.e., the Steel Confessors created by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Exorcists created by the Ordo Malleus). The Unforgiven appear to have been instrumental in the founding of several Successors, too, though they don't appear to ever have provided the real reason to the powers that be. And one unique Chapter is the Sons of Medusa, which was created from the outcasts of the Iron Hands Successors after the Moraie Schism (I hope I spelled that correctly ).

3) How important is gene-seed in the process ? Is it chosen for specific traits, or out of availability for cultivating enough for 1000 Astartes at the time ?

Gene-seed purity is always important. It only takes 55 years to develop enough to create a new Chapter, and the Adeptus Mechanicus draws a tithe from each of the Chapters in order to monitor purity, have reserve stocks on hand (for when the Chapter might need it), and have stocks on hand for the creation of new foundings. The exception/aberration appears to be the Cursed Founding in which we see examples of gene-seed being mixed (typically, each Chapter's gene-seed is isolated), gene-seed being tinkered with (the hubris of the Adeptus Mechanicus in thinking that they can improve upon the work done by the Emperor), and the possible use of forbidden gene-seed (that of the traitors is locked in stasis, never to be used). Of course, there's a reason that this founding is called "cursed" and each of the scions of that founding suffer gene-seed loss and degradation, each slowly dying out.

4) Where are the senior officers chosen from ? Are they from parent Chapters who join the new Chapter ? Are they elected from promising recruits and groomed for command ?

We don't know, and the actual answer is that it may vary from Chapter to Chapter, founding to founding. Two prevailing theories are that the entire corps of the new Chapter is created lock, stock, and barrel, including the officers. These might be trained by a cadre from another Chapter (which then returns to its parent Chapter) or they might be trained by members of other institutions that have the requisite abilities (the Adeptus Mechanicus training the techmarines and apothecaries, etc.). Another is that a cadre from the new Chapter's predecessor breaks away from the parent Chapter, joining the new Chapter as it's original leadership core. If the new Chapter's leadership comes from its own members (i.e., not from a predecessor), then it's likely that the meritocracy model is followed - the most promising and able of those that survive naturally ascend into the leadership roles.

5) How is the training process done ? Mostly every new Astartes starts as a scout, so do they all start at the same time then are assigned to a company once they pass the trials ? Or is it done batch per batch, with the 1st company starting out as the eldest of the new recruits in a founding ?

We don't know if the entire membership of the new Chapter is created at once or if it is incremental. It seems highly likely to me that it is incremental, with "batches" created and trained in overlapping sequence.

6) How are heraldry and customs defined ? Is the culture passed on from senior members originally from other Chapters ? Or is it acquired over time ?

The choice of Chapter name, badge, and livery varies. In some cases, the first Chapter Master chooses (and it would seem likely that others assist in advising during this process). In others, elements are given to the Chapter. The traditions of the Chapter's predecessor, if known, often have an influence; and this would be especially true if the new Chapter's initial leadership structure is drawn from the predecessor. This is why Successors often have names, badges, and livery that draw upon the rich traditions of the Legion from which they are descended. In cases where a new Chapter doesn't know its predecessor, however, the name is often less constrained and draws upon the Codex Astartes (without being constrained by a set list of options).

Note that I'm moving this to Liber Astartes as this is a subject that has come up many times therein and there will be plenty of feedback from other knowledgeable members. This is not really a topic about the Ultramarines, even if the Chapter that might be developed from it is descended from that legion.

[Beta galactosidase]

3) How important is gene-seed in the process ? Is it chosen for specific traits, or out of availability for cultivating enough for 1000 Astartes at the time ?

"Specific traits" are likely biological factors like low implant failure rate and low mutation rate.

 

The availability is very simple, because they only use take gene seed from storage to create one marine. They multiply that under lab conditions, so that they only have a single profile to check against for mutation.

4) Where are the senior officers chosen from ? Are they from parent Chapters who join the new Chapter ? Are they elected from promising recruits and groomed for command ?

Nothing strongly indicates that they are usually from "parent chapters."

 

Consider the point of the codex chapter. If someone becomes corrupt (e.g. Abaddon), he can come out immediately and be denounced by everyone in the chapter, or he can bide his time and appoint his friends to squad commands, to company commands, to command capital ships that just happen to be well positioned to obliterate the parts of his chapter that are not commanded by his friends. Preventing this from getting out of control is the entire point of having chapters instead of legions. If not just some, but the entire command staff of a new chapter comes from one chapter, then they can sell out the entire new chapter, and not just the three companies that erstwhile Sarpedons and Iktinos can co-opt. If people are outraged at the Ultramarines and Dark Angels having "secret legions" who support them, they should be furious that a chapter master from one chapter might be able to hand select the entire command staff of another, newer chapter.

 

On the other hand, the codex is designed so that chapters will work roughly the same way as each other, and they use that quality to work together all the time. It is much more helpful for a brand new chapter to learn directly from Dante and the Blood Angels at Armageddon or Logan Grimnar at the thirteenth black crusade. They even get support from those chapters' veteran companies and larger fleets, which leads directly to the next question.

5) How is the training process done ? Mostly every new Astartes starts as a scout, so do they all start at the same time then are assigned to a company once they pass the trials ? Or is it done batch per batch, with the 1st company starting out as the eldest of the new recruits in a founding ?

The sixth edition codex, and the previous ones too, say that "The Codex dictates no formal size for the 10th company, as the rate of recruitment is not fixed."

 

That indicates to me that if some of the other companies do not exist, say because they were destroyed or because the chapter does not have any marines qualified to be in battle companies, much less a veteran company, that the tenth company can be as big as three hundred or eight hundred or one thousand scouts. Since scout and reserve companies are used to support battle companies, it is very likely that a new chapter which only has reserve and scout companies can be most useful supporting the actions of another chapter that does have full battle and reserve companies. Probably, a new chapter spends several years with most of a ninth company, part of an eighth company, and many hundreds of scouts.

 

It is not really right to say that this is speculation, because it does not make anything up, it just gives an explanation for the explicit statements that Chapters are made from one thousand copies of a single set of zygotes, the legions were broken up to isolate corruption, chapters often cooperate under a senior commander like Dante or Logan Grimnar, reserve companies operate in support of battle companies, and scout companies have no fixed size. None of those things are made up.

[NightrawenII]

Brother Tyler is pretty much spot on. I have just few things to add.

 

First, there has been at least three cases when the nascent Chapter was trained, and possibly lead, by the cadre from parent Chapter. Namely Executioners, Marines Errant and Fire Angels.

Fafnir Ran, the first Chapter Master of Executioners was formerly captain of Rogal Dorn.

Eagle Warriors, the parent Chapter of Marines Errant, has been singled out for honour to sire a successor, which would indicate another factor in the selection of gene-seed and parent Chapter; reward for outstanding service.

Fire Angels has been trained by officers drawn from several Chapters.

 

Technically speaking, the Ultramarines gene-line is favoured by High Lords of Terra. Mainly due to its availability, purity and the fact that the selected primogenitor is most likely not adherent to some obscure and aberrant ideology. Still, it's the Admech who select the source of gene-seed.

 

The name and livery of new Chapter is chosen at its inception by the first Chapter Master. He is given list of already existing Chapters and forbidden names, so theoretically he is supposed to avoid duplication of name and livery.

 

+++++

@curvacious

- ???

 

 

~ NightrawenII

[Conn Eremon]

To add onto what NightrawenII said about how the first Chapter Master chooses the livery and name, Fantasy Flight Game's Deathwatch RPG source book 'Rites of Battle,' which includes rules and info on how to create Chapter, fluff and crunch, for the purpose of playing it in the game, has more information. Basically, it allows for some other possibilities. Some Chapters are formed, livery and name already chosen. Some Chapters are nameless, possibly even unpainted, until something happens to give them their name. I keep thinking there were more, but I don't have it with me right now.

 

But, that depends on your approach to 40k canon. If you organize it all into a hierarchy, such as the popular idea of putting Codices ahead of all else, then it might not be a reliable source. If you accept the Loose Canon Theory, then it is as valid a source as any other.

[Valkyrion]

This seems like as good a place as any to ask without starting a new topic...

 

Some Chapters seem to have a name that signifies a philosophy - e.g Altar Brethren, Venerators, Clerics of Steel which suggests a more religious background. 

Could a chapter be deliberately founded with an ideal in mind, rather than purely to combat/crusade/protect?

 

So for instance the Clerics of Steel may have been founded to Crusade in wilderness space, but at the same time preach that the Emperor is a God and so on, or that they may be formed with the express purpose of guarding shrine worlds or something?

 

The God Emperor is just an example - perhaps the Grief Bringers were created specifically to spread Grief, to scare rebellious worlds into submission - point being that could the philosophy come first and then a chapter is founded into that mould for that express purpose?

[Conn Eremon]

That might fall into the category of a Chapter taking its name only after it has forged an identity for itself.

 

But it is certainly possible that there is some intent put into their specific Founding. Some Administratum clerk, Mechanicum techpriest, or perhaps the parent Chapter or forwarded/seconded Marines, get it into their heads to project some sentiment or pattern of thought onto the newborns. Or maybe it is the newborns themselves, some common thread that refuses to be drowned out by heavy indoctrination.

 

I would say that the more personal the effect, like one's religious beliefs, the closest one should look for its origins. The clerks, techpriests, and maybe Chapter or seconded Marines that are personally involved with this specific Chapter's creation.

 

While the greater the effect, the more encompassing, like becoming a part of a group like the Astartes Praeses or Maelstrom Warders, if granted at Chapter Founding, then the higher up the food chain you should look for those who would make such a decision. Maybe the guy who is put in charge of the Founding, or his immediate subordinates, or their immediate subordinates.

[NightrawenII]

Actually, the aforementioned Executioners are exactly what their name suggests, the executioners of Emperor's foes and this philosophy of purpose futher shapes their behaviour and demeanour. So yeah, it's definitely possible. However, keep in mind how troublesome and expensive the creation of SM Chapter is, so the idea should somewhat justify the necessity to involve a band of psychopatic killing-machines in the process.

 

 

~ NightrawenII