Dataslate Formation and Ultra Chapter Tactics

[UnkyHamHam]

Its a simple question, that I feel like I already know the answer to, but would like some more opinions.  It starts with taking the Reclusiam Command Squad Dataslate with Ultramarine chapter tactics, alongside a primary detachment of Ultramarines.

 

According to the Dataslate rules, Formation Dataslates count as a special type of "seperate" detachment, not part of the primary.  And then according to the chapter tactics of the Ultramarines, models in the "detachment" gain the following combat doctrines.

 

So the question is, do you have two seperate sets of Ultra Combat Doctrines? One set that applies to your primary detachment, and one set that applies the the Reclusiam Command Squad?  

[Gentlemanloser]

That's a very good question.

 

Should you be able to use a dataslate formation that has the same Chapter Tactics as one of your Detachments?  If you do, shouldn't by Codex rules, that dataslate now 'count-as' part of the actual detachment, and not a separate 'formation' of it's own?

 

I think this is something GW need to address, I don't feel we are given enough information to draw a conclusion here.

[SvenONE]

It's interesting because the squad was released with the C:SM without any rules, basically a command squad with a dedicated transport and a chaplain HQ.  However the dataslate is a bit of a difference.

 

C:SM does say this detachment, where "this" = primary, the dataslate is entirely separate and is not a part of the primary detachment.

 

However the thing that allows you to use chapter traits is in the special rules of the profile entry.  I don't know the language but looking at the Digital site it says they are chosen from Codex: Space Marines, which would mean that since the chaplain and the command squad are come from that codex, they come with the chapter tactics special rule.  

 

While it basically seems like you would be allying with yourself, because of the way dataslates are handled you aren't.  Which means you could run 2x ultramarines, or you could run Fists, Black Templar, Iron Hands, or heck even the FW chapter traits.

 

Conventional wisdom would say that you CAN'T run 2 separate of the same chapter tactics, but I don't think there is a case against it.

[Ming]

Weird as it is, it seems the dataslate is a separate formation, that would also follow the Ultramarines traits, and seems could declare them separately from the main detachment.  Same other rules apply?  Handle it exactly as an ally.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you handle it as an ally, then they must be different Chapter Tactics.

 

If you handled them like two separate primary detachments, it's *possible* you could have them both the same.

 

We're not told how to treat Formations though.

[SvenONE]

If you handle it as an ally, then they must be different Chapter Tactics.

 

If you handled them like two separate primary detachments, it's *possible* you could have them both the same.

 

We're not told how to treat Formations though.

 

That's the thing, formations just are, they completely ignore FOC/Allies.  But you can only take formations provided you can ally with the parent codex.  So, Chaos can't take them.  But here's an excerpt from the stormwing one:

 

“Independent Formation: The Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing Formation does not benefit from the Chapter Tactics special rule, but units from Codex: Space Marines that are included in the same army can begin the game embarked on the Stormraven Gunship, and can embark on it during the game.” 

 

So here we have a situation where it specifically says that there are no chapter tactics at all.  I don't see anything that says that the detachment would follow Ultramarines Chapter Tactics, it's entirely possible that you could be running a White Scars army.  So unless it says something specific you would just go ahead and decide which CT you want them to follow with no restriction.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

I am not replying to the thread. I am simply adding another question to the thread as it pertains to subject heading.

 

q. when selecting any of the formation from strike force dataslate ... are we forced to use smurf chapter tactics only?

[Kristoff]

Does it say to use only Ultramarines Chapter Tactics? If not, then no, it does not. However, it cannot be used with Angel or Wolf Army Rules, just "Codex" Tactics.

[Morticon]

All marines have the "Chapter Tactics" rule -ergo they would have whatever Chapter Tactics you want them to have unless it specifically says they cannot.  I'm sure the storm wing is just to prevent us raiding the poor Iron Hands' flight deck for all their flyers. 
 

Removing that special rule breaks a rule.  Keeping it does not. 

[Venemox]

Formations are detachments, and each is it's own separate entity.  The C:SM was FAQ'd so that every C:SM detachment selects a set of Chapter Tactics; and you can take an Allied Detachment also from C:SM, with the caveat that it must not be the same Chapter Tactics as your Primary Detachment.  That is all.  End of line.

 

As for who can ally with who; anyone can ally with anyone else, applying the rules as set forth in Levels of Alliance.  So your Reclusiam Command Squad with Black Templar Chapter Tactics can join a detachment of Crimson Slaughter, as long as they deploy more than 12" away and keep One Eye Open (for example).  View it as one group taking advantage of the presence of the other to accomplish their own goals in the face of mutual enemies.  Nothing, if not pragmatic.

[Gentlemanloser]

How was the FAQ worded?  Can you take two Codex: SM CADs with two different Chapter Tactics?

 

Does it mention formations at all?

 

If your Primary Detachment *isn't* Codex: Space Marines, can you take a CAD and an AD with both the same Chapter Tactics?

[Venemox]

Space Marine FAQ

 

The relationship between formations and detachments is in the BRB.  Formations are a type of detachment, with the added bonus that unbound armies can take them.

 

The restriction on AD's is that they cannot (normally) be the same Faction as your Primary detachment, contain your warlord, or be your Primary detachment.  The CAD does not have to be your Primary detachment.  A CAD is not required at all.  It is just the classic 1 HQ and 2 Troop choices we are all familiar with.

 

Outside of Primary detachment and Allied Detachment relationship, there are no limitations regarding detachments and Chapter Tactics.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah and actual FAQ.  For some reaosn I was thinking of an e-dex update. ;)

 

Can't get to BL site at work. :(

 

Unbound aside (as that still causes problems with Chapter Tactcis, unless specifically reference in the FAQ), can you now take an Ultramarine CAD and a Salamanders CAD?

 

Regardless of what detachment is your Primary detachment.

[Kristoff]

Ah and actual FAQ. For some reaosn I was thinking of an e-dex update. ;)

 

Can't get to BL site at work. :(

 

Unbound aside (as that still causes problems with Chapter Tactcis, unless specifically reference in the FAQ), can you now take an Ultramarine CAD and a Salamanders CAD?

 

Regardless of what detachment is your Primary detachment.

Yes, points and game setup allowing.

 

As for Unbound, they word it really weird. They say that you can't take detachments, and their Command Benefits don't work, but Formations are allowed, which I think just means they can keep their bonuses. You are also required to take a Primary Detachment because of Warlord.

 

So, to me that just means that all units are still in a detachment of one size or another in Unbound, just not part of any organized FOC.

[Gentlemanloser]

And you can take multiple ADs for different Chapter Tactics, as long as none of them share the same Chapter Tactic as your Primary (assuming your Primary is Faction: Sapce Marines)?

 

The issue with unbound remains that all Faction: Space Marine units form up in a single Detachment (assuming the Warlord is Faction: Space Marine) and as a single Detachment can only have one Chapter Tactic, which *must* be the same as the Warlords.

 

Was this covered at all in the FAQ?

[Kristoff]

And you can take multiple ADs for different Chapter Tactics, as long as none of them share the same Chapter Tactic as your Primary (assuming your Primary is Faction: Sapce Marines)?

Correct, and so long as none of the ADs are the Primary (obviously).

 

The issue with unbound remains that all Faction: Space Marine units form up in a single Detachment (assuming the Warlord is Faction: Space Marine) and as a single Detachment can only have one Chapter Tactic, which *must* be the same as the Warlords.

 

Was this covered at all in the FAQ?

No, it doesn't, exactly. The problem is that what if you have Marneus Calgar and Pedro Cantor in the Unbound army. They are both different Chapter Traits and cannot be in the same detachment. Not to mention, Chapter Traits are only assigned when a unit is put in to a detachment. So if Dante is your Warlord, but you run Sternguard, Calgar, and Pedro, do the Sternguard have a Chapter Trait or no? To me, Chapter Traits is a way of operating a "faction within a Faction", so Chapter Traits are assigned by detachment, even if that detachment has no FOC.

 

It may be House Ruling, but it's the only way I can wrap my head around it without a critical fault error happening.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well at least Battle Forged works now. :)  Even if Unbound is still a cluster :cuss!

[Ishagu]

I've come across this before with the Tyranic war veterans dataslate (the one with Cassius, the vets and the turn 1 Stormtalon spam).

 

If the units in the detachment have the same chapter tactic then they certainly benefit from it fully in terms of synergy with the rest of the army - you only get one set of doctrines across the whole lot.