Abaddon vs Sigismund

[Kais Klip]

 

Like sire like squire. Isn’t that the nature of the VII; to stand lone against the tide and be dragged down out of the light? 

 

Besides, Argel Tal didn’t die to Sanguinius, so who says Dorn has to be the golden son thats brought down by a hacking mob?

The background that says he died to a hacking mob says he dies to a hacking mob. Besides, nowhere did it say Argel Tal would die to Sanguinius. He was told he would die under the shadow of great wings. Everyone, including Argel Tal, just assumed it would be Sanguinius after 1.)he survived being under Corax's shadow and 2.)Lorgar saw a future where Argel Tal would be at Terra.

 

I was aware of that, was trying to phrase it neater (and encourage BL to do it neater) than “Ollanius Pious.”

[Wade Garrett]

This whole idea that all of Sigmund's accomplishments, all the heroism, the glory, the honor, the lifetime embodying the ideals of the Great Crusade, all of it is rendered meaningless if he loses one fight against Abaddon...I'm sorry, I don't see it.

 

If George Foreman came out of retirement tomorrow to box a Klitscho brother and lost, that doesn't take any luster off his previous career.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Kol, I said the Imperium is as 'as unified as it can be'. Of course there will be strife, but it's not anywhere near Age of Apostasy levels. And that kind of giant dust up is exactly what did happen back before the clock was rolled back on the 13th Crusade. The showdown in the Cadian system between Abaddon's fleet and Admiral Quarren that resulted in Macharia being destroyed, Kasr Partox scoured by a Blackstone (which also killed all the Chaos Marines on the Planet), but the Chaos Fleet was routed, the Planet Killer crippled and lost, and Cadia still stood.

 

From BFG armada:

"Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset of the war, they soon stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets...and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unvreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. From this strong regrouping, Admiral Quarren was more than able to launch his counter-attacks against Abaddon's chosen targets"

I'm pretty sure Chaos won the 13th crusade. Decisively.

[Kais Klip]

Neither do I Wade, but I see how one may; Sigi is the Imperial Fist champion, the Imperial Fist champion, and given that the Imperial Fists are the Emperor’s praetorians it can be said that it is Sigismund (because it definitely is not Dorn) that is the Emperor’s Chamion, in all meaning of the word. And if the Champion of the Imperium loses to Abaddon… well, we used to let our champions decide the whole outcome of the war for posterity. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

You said that there were no threats from within the Imperium. There are always threats from within the Imperium. Period. That's the setting. There is always someone breaking away. The Segmentum Obscurus stands strong against Abaadon, doesn't mean the rest of the Imperium does.

Yes there are always threats from within the Imperium. But there are no great schisms dividing the Imperium like there had been in previous ages, hence 'unified as it can be'. Generally the two gravest threats of the 'Imperium ending' scale are the 13th Crusade in the galatic north, and the Hive Fleets in the south/east. Abaddon is Obscurus' problem, while the nids are a problem for Tempestus and Pacificus.

 

I don't say that there are no threats from within, only that this time the major threats are external invasions, rather than apostasy from within. So it could be argued that the Imperium is in a better state to repulse these invasions than it has been in the past, when a significant portion of its strength was dedicated to fighting itself.

[DuskRaider]

I think Abaddon would be able to handle Sigismund just fine. The main issues rules-wise from what I see is, FW seems to have been more conservative with their Special Character rules in Betrayal compared to the following two books. Even then, Khârn seems like he'd be a match for Sigismund. Rules-wise and background-wise.

[Kais Klip]

If we’re speaking rules-wise, I’d rather FW calm down on the instant death/eternal warrior arms race that GW is so keen on. HQ duels should take 2/3 turns, thats where all the suspense and fun is at, now yes, don’t send out Centurion No. 31,000 against Sevetar, but there’s not much choice unless there’s eternal warrior in every legion (a scenario which I despise almost as much as ID) and when pride is at the hands of little resin paragon blades. 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Kol, I said the Imperium is as 'as unified as it can be'. Of course there will be strife, but it's not anywhere near Age of Apostasy levels. And that kind of giant dust up is exactly what did happen back before the clock was rolled back on the 13th Crusade. The showdown in the Cadian system between Abaddon's fleet and Admiral Quarren that resulted in Macharia being destroyed, Kasr Partox scoured by a Blackstone (which also killed all the Chaos Marines on the Planet), but the Chaos Fleet was routed, the Planet Killer crippled and lost, and Cadia still stood.

 

From BFG armada:

"Where Imperial defences had been overstretched at the outset of the war, they soon stood reinforced by dozens of neighbouring battlefleets...and soon the Imperial Navy stood as an unvreakable circle of iron around Abaddon's forces. From this strong regrouping, Admiral Quarren was more than able to launch his counter-attacks against Abaddon's chosen targets"

I'm pretty sure Chaos won the 13th crusade. Decisively.

Not exactly. While it is rumoured that the GW staff fudged the results to prevent a Chaos whitewash. I can't really comment about that.

 

From the published results in White Dwarf 287:

 

"AND THE RESULT IS...

Victory for Chaos! Not a complete victory, the forces of Order have held the line in many places and Cadia itself still defies the Arch Warmaster Abadon"

 

For specifics, while some individual planets and systems were lost, most of the major gate fixtures aside from the Cadian System were held by the loyalists (Cadian Sector, Scarus Sector, Thracian Primaris, Nemesis Tessera, Agripinaa Sector and system, Belis Corona Sector and system, Medusa, Scelus and Caliban). To be honest, looking at the nymbers, I never quite understood how the Imperium holding most of the gate counted as a minor Chaos victory.

[marshal seanisi]

This whole idea that all of Sigmund's accomplishments, all the heroism, the glory, the honor, the lifetime embodying the ideals of the Great Crusade, all of it is rendered meaningless if he loses one fight against Abaddon...I'm sorry, I don't see it.

If George Foreman came out of retirement tomorrow to box a Klitscho brother and lost, that doesn't take any luster off his previous career.

It's a very rare occurrence, but I agree with Wade on this! It has to be done right, but if it is written correctly he (Sig) can still keep all his glory yet have an ending befitting the greatest champion the Astartes have ever known. I don't see Abaddon just going against Sigismund one on one. I imagine him coming in after Sigismund has dispatched Abaddon's guards and still being beaten to within a inch of his life, needing all his gifts of Chaos to finally finish the battle worn Champion

[b1soul]

But wouldn't that just be copying Dorn's death?

 

He died like his primarch...even more badass (and probably desirable for him)

 

Anyway, he doesn't have to be brought down by a mob. Could just be several enemy champions or ramming his ship into a traitor ship or sacrificing himself in some other way...I'm sure a writer could come up with something that's not (A) losing in a duel and also not (B) being swamped by a hacking mob. I mean seriously, those are only two options out of many.

 

...or a Greater Daemon kills him or a powerful Chaos psyker or a bombardment by a Traitor Titan...just not an enemy champion in a 1 on 1 sword fight. I don't know what would be the point of that other than to prove that even the unlikely sometimes happens. Wouldn't make for a very fitting ending though

[Karthak]

 Because when all is said and done, the Long War will end in a Chaos victory. It is utterly inevitable. The one chance there was to come out on the other side died with Horus and the Emperor at Terra.

 

That's what makes 40k so engaging. Everyone knows how it will end eventually, but it's that little bit inbetween the now and that then, when the very best and the very worst of human nature meet, that is rich in story telling potential.

Why is a Chaos victory inevitable? They and the Imperium aren't the only powerful forces in the galaxy after all. The 'nids might very well eat Terra long before Abaddon gets there, and if all the Necron Dynasties wake up, everyone else is pretty much screwed.

[WGXH]

I have a singular beef with Abaddon.

 

He's like Dan on Alan partridge in this linked clip. No matter what happens, he has an answer for why whatever he did works. All the time, for everything.

 

Fathers dead? Never liked him anyway! Running away from Terra? Legs needed a strech!  Every Black Crusade that didn't wipe out the Imperium? My goal isn't to wipe it out after all!

 

After a while it starts to strain credulity, and that is why I personally think the Failbaddon meme has arisen. The man either needs a good, solid and unambiguous victory- but he also needs to see some defeats. No character remains interesting if he is constantly untested and unchallenged.

 

Maybe somebody needs to get his kids, too?

[DuskRaider]

The reason why Abaddon hasn't succeeded? Because if he did, Warhammer 40K would cease to exist. Let's look at it logically, kids.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

 Because when all is said and done, the Long War will end in a Chaos victory. It is utterly inevitable. The one chance there was to come out on the other side died with Horus and the Emperor at Terra.

 

That's what makes 40k so engaging. Everyone knows how it will end eventually, but it's that little bit inbetween the now and that then, when the very best and the very worst of human nature meet, that is rich in story telling potential.

Why is a Chaos victory inevitable? They and the Imperium aren't the only powerful forces in the galaxy after all. The 'nids might very well eat Terra long before Abaddon gets there, and if all the Necron Dynasties wake up, everyone else is pretty much screwed.

Because Chaos itself cannot be beaten and even if they fail to conquer the Imperium, time will eventually make it easier to destroy. Additionally, Chaos has conquered most of Segmentum Obsucras (Eye of Terror Campaign) and Segmentum Pacificus (Night of 1000 Rebellions) and almost destroyed the Imperium during the Horus Heresy. Because of this they have a better track record than all the other non-Imperial races combined.

[reckoning]

Ive never viewed the ultimate destruction of humanity, or any other chaos influenced race, as a victory for chaos. Correct me if Im wrong, but dont the deeds of humanity and similar races fuel the chaos gods? Why would they want to lose that? Seems kind of counter productive to me...

[Sanct]

This whole idea that all of Sigmund's accomplishments, all the heroism, the glory, the honor, the lifetime embodying the ideals of the Great Crusade, all of it is rendered meaningless if he loses one fight against Abaddon...I'm sorry, I don't see it.

 

If George Foreman came out of retirement tomorrow to box a Klitscho brother and lost, that doesn't take any luster off his previous career.

 

I did like his grills.  

 

 

Ive never viewed the ultimate destruction of humanity, or any other chaos influenced race, as a victory for chaos. Correct me if Im wrong, but dont the deeds of humanity and similar races fuel the chaos gods? Why would they want to lose that? Seems kind of counter productive to me...

 

Because they are emotions made manifest? I don't think they really have a logical harvesting and maintenance plan for species.

[A D-B]

I have a singular beef with Abaddon.

 

He's like Dan on Alan partridge in this linked clip. No matter what happens, he has an answer for why whatever he did works. All the time, for everything.

 

Fathers dead? Never liked him anyway! Running away from Terra? Legs needed a strech!  Every Black Crusade that didn't wipe out the Imperium? My goal isn't to wipe it out after all!

 

After a while it starts to strain credulity, and that is why I personally think the Failbaddon meme has arisen. The man either needs a good, solid and unambiguous victory- but he also needs to see some defeats. No character remains interesting if he is constantly untested and unchallenged.

 

Maybe somebody needs to get his kids, too?

 

You've got that a little bit the wrong way 'round. Much of the sense of Abaddon saying "Actually, I won that..." was in response to the Failbaddon meme, where he did little but consistently lose. I think the trick is to avoid both as much as possible. Sometimes, though... It's war. It's a matter of objectives and goals. There will be plenty of times where Abaddon plainly does want to achieve X, and does so, even if the Imperium thinks he was after Y. Similarly, there'll be times he straight-up loses. The key is avoiding hyperbole.

 

And on the meta-point, if Rogal Dorn can be killed by nameless humans in a no-name Black Crusade, I think it's fair for Sigismund to die to the Antichrist of Warhammer 40,000. There'll always be spilt milk and broken cookies with some readers, and legitimate grievances with others, but a story that cool, with that much possibility, with that much on the line, and with that much general consensus, isn't something I'm going to shy away from. He'd be a thousand years old, heroically facing the Lord of the End Times Who Is Destined To End The Imperium. It just doesn't get any more knightly and heroic than that. Literally, it doesn't. 

[depthcharge12]

I think this thread has reached it's course.

 

Nuke it from orbit

[Emperor's Furor]

But we don't know if Rogal Dorn was killed by nameless humans, we don't even know if he's dead now since in the latest codex it only states the recovery of a single fist. Personally I prefer some mystery rather than confirmation all the time and I'd rather all confirmation stays away from Sigismund, I want the Imperium to have some heroic figures that we don't know what happened to them.

[A D-B]

But we don't know if Rogal Dorn was killed by nameless humans, we don't even know if he's dead now since in the latest codex it only states the recovery of a single fist. Personally I prefer some mystery rather than confirmation all the time and I'd rather all confirmation stays away from Sigismund, I want the Imperium to have some heroic figures that we don't know what happened to them.

 

As as ludicrously conservative as I am on the Heresy team, and as much as I desperately say things like "We don't need to answer every mystery" and "We don't need to subvert everything" and "Our lives aren't made better by knowing Darth Vader was a little kid who built C3-P0" - in this case, I'm just not going to agree, dude. And I think I've made a good case for why, as has pretty much everyone else in this thread.

 

I don't see this as a diminishing factor in 40K's mystery. If it was a pointless/uninteresting/unthematic/gratuitous death, sure. But I like this one a lot. Some answers, thankfully, are great. This isn't the Lost Legions. It's a main character in the license, these days. If I don't touch it, you can guarantee someone else will. We know he dies, because all Space Marines die. Now we probably know how.

 

It's 8,000 years or so before the Dark Millennium, so they'll likely have forgotten it anyway. Depending on context.

[Kol Saresk]

Like Graham McNeill or Gav Thorpe? Sure, they have their moments but for the most part...........

 

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbg6zdDXqy1r79k9c.gif

[Rain]

Eh, I can actually see this working. The whole "last stand of an old warrior" thing really works for the knightly crusader type, and it's literally as glorious a death as one could ask for. In my opinion the whole "getting shot by a titan so that he is undefeated until the end" thing is actually more ignominious as it just feels cheap and anticlimactic. Especially as he is still undefeated during his hayday, plus it's not like he's being killed by an author's pet character, he is getting killed by a major driver of canon.

 

As far as diminishing mystery, what annoys me is the demystification of the ultimate fate of Garro. I much preferred when it was possible that he either led some kind of LotD type strike force in the original colors of the Death Guard or even ultimately fell to Chaos rather than becomes the founding GM of the Ward Knights. Ugh. Oh well.

[Scribe]

But we don't know if Rogal Dorn was killed by nameless humans, we don't even know if he's dead now since in the latest codex it only states the recovery of a single fist. Personally I prefer some mystery rather than confirmation all the time and I'd rather all confirmation stays away from Sigismund, I want the Imperium to have some heroic figures that we don't know what happened to them.

 

And I want them all to be confirmed dead, as fits the setting.

 

...whatever happens, you will not be missed.

[WGXH]

 

I have a singular beef with Abaddon.

 

He's like Dan on Alan partridge in this linked clip. No matter what happens, he has an answer for why whatever he did works. All the time, for everything.

 

Fathers dead? Never liked him anyway! Running away from Terra? Legs needed a strech!  Every Black Crusade that didn't wipe out the Imperium? My goal isn't to wipe it out after all!

 

After a while it starts to strain credulity, and that is why I personally think the Failbaddon meme has arisen. The man either needs a good, solid and unambiguous victory- but he also needs to see some defeats. No character remains interesting if he is constantly untested and unchallenged.

 

Maybe somebody needs to get his kids, too?

 

You've got that a little bit the wrong way 'round. Much of the sense of Abaddon saying "Actually, I won that..." was in response to the Failbaddon meme, where he did little but consistently lose. I think the trick is to avoid both as much as possible.

 

 

I couldn't agree more. It doesn't matter if it cropped up before or after, it leads to the same road- same as doing a full 360 degree turn, no matter if you turn left or right, always end up straight onwards- in this analogy, Abaddon not having a hell of a lot of respect.

 

And with regards to Dorn, well, all men must die. but Abaddon is no mere man. That'd be a hell of a way for him to get some street cred.

[Failbaddon]

So, these guys are the two greatest Space Marine warriors of their faction (loyalist and traitor). If these two ever came head to head who do you guys think would win?

Fluff Wise:

Abaddon would be the stronger fighter

 

Crunch Wise:

(INCOMING MATHAMMER. Each character uses their strongest weapon and this does not factor in charge bonuses)

 

Sigismund First (I5)

4 Attacks, Makes 3 Hits

Deals 3 wounds (Rounded up)

Abaddon makes 25% of saves (must re-roll successful invulnerable saves)

Abaddon is Insta-Killed 75% of the time

 

Abaddon Second (I1 With Power Fist)

4 Attacks, Makes 2 Hits

Deals 2 Wounds (Rounded up)

Sigismund makes 50% of saves

Abaddon deals 2 wounds 50% of the time

 

Sigismund absolutely decimates Abaddon