Jolemai Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 With the imminent release of the Super-heavy Walker, there is a good chance that you will face one of these in the near future. How do you plan on defeat it? [Disclaimer: This is in the Tactica sub-forum, so please be constructive with your replies] Stand practice on taking out a super-heavy vehicle is getting into close combat with it. Generally these are idle meaning you will auto-hit them on the rear and even Krak Grenades will have a chance of glancing them down. However, this is a different prospect with a Walker. Super-heavies are no longer affected by the first five results on the vehicle damage table meaning that in combat, you will always be striking their front armour (often AV13), suffer retaliation from a D-strength weapon at initiative and then be stomped on at I1. One could feed them Vanguard Veterans with Melta Bombs, but there is surely a more cost effective method. Melta Gun Honour Guard? Combi Melta Sternguard? Another source? How will you be doing it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Flyer attack to the rear. Ground Melta attack with good spacing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602206 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 There's actually a couple of hint's in the latest WD on this. I'd say drop a squad of sternguard/command squad in a drop pod with plently of melta. If you position your squad so you're covering at least two sides then your opponent can only stop half the shots with his ion field. Or ally in some basilisks? ;) Or use the stronghold supplement and include an aquila macro cannon or vortex missiles :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 The main problem with the/a flyer strike is that targetting the rear is unlikely. All the same, you'd have to attack it with two units at once - something which is difficult to do with a flyer and, say, a Drop pod full of melta weaponry. Dual flyer perhaps? Take a Blood Angel's Stormraven. That's a Multi Melta shot, four Assault Cannon shots and two Bloodstrike Missiles (AP1) from either side which whilst being a potent combination, you will only get one chance at this. It's also more than 400 points of your force to take down something of lesser points cost... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 It's funny you mention the Stompa, as the first thing I thought of when I heard of Knights was as a counter... I think it's a difficult one, it's expensive and tough not to mention dangerous so taking out will require a concerted effort and plenty of points throw in. For Knights their Ion shield is something that must be taken into account, to drop in with a single unit might not be enough as half your shots ping off the shield. Ideally you'd force your opponent to choose the "lesser of two evils" when positioning the shield but to have more than one side threatened isn't going to be easy. As you said Jolemai, how many points should you dedicate to taking it down before it starts getting silly? I think the best thing may be a compromise of sorts, for example build a dedicated unit (or spread the points across two to try and foil the Ion shields a bit) with lots of melta and hope that they do enough damage for the rest of your big/nasty guns to finish the job? What about a bit of Grav to plink Hull Points as a backup/support? I will be very interested to hear how things go when people start getting table top experiences against them! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Forgive the naive question, but how would the effect from the Grav weaponry interact with the Ion Shield? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 How about a squadron of land speeders with multimeltas? You might be able to space them out enough to threaten two facings, reducing the need to coordinate with a second unit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 True but that's not enough firepower to bring it down. Hell you'll have trouble with just 1 squad of vets in a pod. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602373 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Bracket it with lascannons whilst a Drop Pod comes in with some melta guns. I'd go cheaper and use a simple Tactical squad with melta and combi melta to strip off a few HPs for minimal cost. Meanwhile hitting it with lascannons from Predators will hurt the thing and still give you shooting options for later on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
greggles Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Volume of melta or high str weaponry, which almost nobody has in their lists anymore...probably the whole reason it's a cheap, non lord of war, scoring superheavy that everyone can take. Just ally orks in once they get their new codex and get the ability to flip all sorts of vehicles and superheavies around to face the other way, then shoot them in the back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 You could always whack it with the D-strength chainsword on your super-heavy walker. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Knights engaging each other is asking for mutually assured destruction. Fast melta is the way to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uberlord Gendo Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I'll first admit that I'm a Magos first, Archon second, and Brother Captain only third or so. Even, then, my marines are in some variant of midnight clad, or setting up plans within plans within plans, so what the Sons of Dorn will reply I cannot say, but here's my thoughts: If you've got a mobile army, odds are you've got things mounted in Razorbacks, in which case, you're good. Worst case, take some extra Predator Annihilators with Lascannon sponsons. If you're more static/infantry based, Devs are a reasonable option, as are centurions. I might try a mortis dread or something to keep pressure on. If you're a bunch of drop pod loonies, like Raven Guard or Salamanders, meltas to the rear seem to be standard. Above all, keep your weaponry spaced out so that it cannot be taken out at once, since a knight is more than capable of doing that. Guardsmen don't care, for them an AV13 superheavy is just like a monstrous creature, just keep shelling it and it will go down eventually. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Knights engaging each other is asking for mutually assured destruction. Fast melta is the way to go. True but I bet it'd be awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602881 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Agreed, as cool as two giants clashing would be it should ideally be as part of finishing off a damaged one to try or as a last resort to prevent it charging/destroying something more valuable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Aye, as cool as it is, facing off a Walker with yours isn't the way to go. Ideally, you don't want a fair fight Just out of interest, has anyone math-hammered out how a Destroyer weapon wounds? Only I would be tempted to let someone like Mephiston finish the job seeing how he can take the odd Destroyer hit... Bracket it with lascannons whilst a Drop Pod comes in with some melta guns. I'd go cheaper and use a simple Tactical squad with melta and combi melta to strip off a few HPs for minimal cost. Meanwhile hitting it with lascannons from Predators will hurt the thing and still give you shooting options for later on. Perhaps toss in a Multi Melta and combat squad it to throw two Krak Grenades if facing the rear? Agreed it would chip away at the HPs but it's not a great deal... Question: Would a Vindicare's Shield Breaker round destroy the Ion Shield? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602933 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 You don't want to be in combat with it really unless you can be sure you'll take it out before it strikes back or have the numbers to take casualties. Too risky I reckon, shooting is the best way to take it out. Doesn't the Vindicare's shield breaker round remove the save if it is granted by a piece of wargear? Without seeing the specific wording for each it seems to suggest that it would work on the Ion Shield? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3602949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodEmperorOfMankind Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Hmmm, I'd say yes but no. To Clarify. Yes: The Shield breaker ammo states that when a wound is allocated to a model that model loses any invunerable save granted by items of wargear immediately and for the rest of the game, and the ion shield is listed as wargear in it's rules. But.. No: Is a glancing/penetrating hit classed as a wound? And more to the point, can you glance/pen with that type of round at av12 minimum? The sniper rifle is strength X? EDIT: So the sniper rule means it has strength 3 against vehicles, with rending. So if you roll a 6 for amour pen, you could POTENTIALLY glance the side/rear of a knight and take out it's ion shield, if you were to roll another 5-6 for the D3. ignore the matter of if you can allocate wounds to vehicles. Good job it's not a MC if you ask me. On a side note, must get me a vindicare to take out riptides and wraithknights EDIT EDIT: Getting my facts straight Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3603033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Yes a glancing/penetrating hit is classed as a wound. This has been debated before in the OR section. A Sniper Rifle/Exitus Long Rifle can get a total of 12 should it roll a six to hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3603038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 I'm not sure he's a great choice for other reasons though, being relatively squishy. He'd probably be best off picking off specific models rather than bouncing off tough vehicles or MCs? I don't think there's an out and out "winner" with regards to countering a Knight, so combined arms is the way to go. As has been discussed that's mostly a case of lots of big/nasty guns, with a few tricks thrown in like tag teaming to partially negate the shield and podding to get in quick. What remains is personal preference mixed with your army, for example my Guard will be best off dropping big shells on it. So maybe we should be talking about this in terms of army/codex? For example listing possible units and their applications for taking a SH walker out? What about a general run down of what a SH walker is capable of and that you need to be aware/careful of? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3603101 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Yes a glancing/penetrating hit is classed as a wound. This has been debated before in the OR section. A Sniper Rifle/Exitus Long Rifle can get a total of 12 should it roll a six to hit. ... no TO I've ever met would agree with that first statement, and I sure as Hell don't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3603133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Is there a way to increase the initiative of assault centurions via psychic powers? If so, they are an excellent choice in killing knights. If not, then they strike simultaneously with the knight, which means both units will die horribly. Horde armies will be able to handle the knight easily in cc. A unit of nob bikers, and a warboss with power claw took down my knight in a round of cc, and it didn't even have the decency to explode on them :p I'd be especially weary of facing IG. They have numerous ways of killing knights in and out of combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3603157 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Mob it with chaos cultists or fenrisian wolves, let it spend four turns doing nothing but trying to kill a 75pt unit? Yes a glancing/penetrating hit is classed as a wound. This has been debated before in the OR section. A Sniper Rifle/Exitus Long Rifle can get a total of 12 should it roll a six to hit. No, it really isnt. Its the equivilent for whether or not a unit is allowed to take a save, and only for that purpose. GWs even chimed in on such- but we havent established that it goes anywhere beyond that. I see no reason that shield breaker would work RAW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3603310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 26, 2014 Author Share Posted February 26, 2014 Thanks for the input Grey Mage. If anyone else wants to discuss the merits of the Shield Breaker Round then it's up for discussion here. So maybe we should be talking about this in terms of army/codex? For example listing possible units and their applications for taking a SH walker out? What about a general run down of what a SH walker is capable of and that you need to be aware/careful of?In my opinion, we should keep it general. If we want army specific, we can always use our respective sub-fora Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3603811 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kierdale Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Snow speeders and tow cables? ;) As has been mentioned the IG have many answers: 1. Our artillery such as basilisks and manticores (drop your blasts on whatever facings the ion shield is not protecting and since ordnance hits from the center of the template his shield means naught), 2. A blob of IG with at least one commissar or Inquisitor to keep them in the fight, and tarpit that walker. I dare say a squadron of Vendettas could do a nice number on a Knight too. Edit: speaking generically: Ordnance Ordnance Ordnance Cheap tarpit Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287210-defeating-a-super-heavy-walker/#findComment-3604360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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