30K Tactical Gear

[Marshal Rohr]

How plausible would it be for Legionaries to be equipped with things like optics and fore grips on their bolt rifles? I just placed a very, very large order from FW and I'd like to 'get it right' the first time I build these guys. 

 

I've seen many people talk about envisioning their models as if they were movie or comic book characters, with heroic posing and unhelmeted heads. Personally, I prefer the look and feel of building models as if they were real. Meaning, If a legionary would carry 240 Rounds of ammunition into battle, I want to model him with 6 magazines. If his rules say he carries a Bolt Pistol, I want to model it and two spare magazines. Same goes for Frag and Krak Grenades. I even have found the IG medic bag to be the perfect size for a buttpack.

 

 

Which brings me to the next logical question. Would Legionaries even use this equipment? A D-B had mentioned that the wars of 30/40K are not modern wars like we think of them, things soldiers use in Afghanistan would be out of place in 30/40K. 

 

For me, it begs the question, how much is too much? Sure a small scope looks cool, they appear in the Tactical box. There is even a Celestial Lion with a fore grip attachment mounted on his bolt rifle on the cover of the Armageddon anthology. We read stories where A D-B's Night Lords filter through thermal and night vision with their added predator style Preysight filters for their helmets. We know the Legions made use of grenade launcher attachments for their rifles (even with the damn rules). At what point does modeling a Green Stuff 3pt sling move beyond the World War 2-esque vibe of 30/40K? 

 

Brother Heinrich, Dan the Daemon, CavPathfinder, and others have all made armies with lots of tactical gear modeled onto them to absolutely stunning results.

 

So, ultimately, would Legionaries use tactical gear? Or is that not the correct interpretation of what a Legionary is?

[Veteran Sergeant]

3 point slings are for boots with too much money to spend at the PX. They're cumbersome and get tangled on everything. A well made 2 point with a quick release is a far better option. Can hang it cross body with the muzzle down and it's automatically positioned to be shouldered. Plus if you end up needing to get at a pack or something, or switch sides to fire it off-handed, it can be disengaged and pulled free really easy, and then clipped back together when you want to sling it again. 3 points were cool back in the long-long ago of like 2004. They were cool at the time, until you realize how obnoxious they are to actually use in practice. Something will always be on top of them, or they will be on top of something you need to get off, like a pack or a radio. Less straps, less mess. Not all of these will really be relevant to Space Marines.

 

I figure a 1 point "rig" harness might work for Space Marines too. The main reason that 1 points were never really in favor with operators is that they tend to hang down where you don't want them to (ie, smacking you in the junk, lol) and flop around too much compared to a 2 point.

 

In the end though, the concept of mag-locked gear for Space Marines makes slings somewhat anachronistic.

 

Of course, my feelings on the other question (tactical gear) is fairly well known, lol.

[Blindhamster]

Well, boltguns are single shot or semi auto weapons, 28 rounds to a clip, i expect the average marine carries 4 spare clips and their pistol which may or may not also have a spare clip. I imagine beyond that they carry a selection of grenades, a member of the squad would have a long range radio (nuncio vox), beyond that they dont need too much, but thats still a number of pouches etc per model, the odd marine may also carry other bits of gear based on personal preference.

[Marshal Rohr]

3 point slings are for boots with too much money to spend at the PX. They're cumbersome and get tangled on everything. A well made 2 point with a quick release is a far better option. Can hang it cross body with the muzzle down and it's automatically positioned to be shouldered. Plus if you end up needing to get at a pack or something, or switch sides to fire it off-handed, it can be disengaged and pulled free really easy, and then clipped back together when you want to sling it again. 3 points were cool back in the long-long ago of like 2004. They were cool at the time, until you realize how obnoxious they are to actually use in practice. Something will always be on top of them, or they will be on top of something you need to get off, like a pack or a radio. Less straps, less mess. Not all of these will really be relevant to Space Marines.

 

I figure a 1 point "rig" harness might work for Space Marines too. The main reason that 1 points were never really in favor with operators is that they tend to hang down where you don't want them to (ie, smacking you in the junk, lol) and flop around too much compared to a 2 point.

 

In the end though, the concept of mag-locked gear for Space Marines makes slings somewhat anachronistic.

 

Of course, my feelings on the other question (tactical gear) is fairly well known, lol.

 

Did Mark II/III Have magnetic locks on the thighs though? I never understood why FW made those nifty holsters if they had no purpose. Also, I was thinking the one point rig system would work, like you pointed out, with the Phobos ammo pouches on the left thigh, and the phobos pistol and holster on the right. 

 

Blindhamster, Im thinking of it in terms of what FW has provided that I can work with. They have 3 Phobos Bolt Pistol Magazines in pouches, 2 Phobos Rifle Magazines (I can cut away the pistol mag) and I'll make a GS mold for the buttock. But would all of that stuff cross to far into the realm of 'Halo-marines' for 30K VII Legionaries?

[Grotsmasha]

Early mkII/III did not have magnetic attachments, but some we're retrofitted post mkIV, iirc. In regards to you Q's, I say, Hells Yes!!!

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

I've always been under the impression that Bolters and Bolt Pistols often have interchangeable ammo (i.e. a sickle-mag from an Ultima Bolter can be loaded into a sickle-mag styled Ultima Bolt Pistol). As such, Space Marines with matching Bolters and Bolt Pistols wouldn't need to carry as much ammo and one with say, a Tigrus Bolter and Ultima pistol.

[Citation Needed]

[Excessus]

WW2 feel? Heck, sometimes I feel it's more a WW1/Napoleonic wars era feel to it all. Rows of marines lined up and firing volleys, cavalry(bikes) swooping in from the flanks and assaulting/harrassing the flanks...

[depthcharge12]

I mean rule of cool and all but I personally think that making realistic marines will take away from them. And it will clutter up all the beautiful armor that FW makes.

 

 

For my sense of sanity I don't imagine Space marines having Y or H load bearing harnesses full of as much bolter rounds as they can carry in their pockets, drop bags, NODs, cleaning gear, and etc. It would be just clutter on the model and have too much going on.

 

 

The closest I can say that looks good is Elmo's dismounted Ravenwing guys that have pouches and etc but he uses non GW models.

 

 

Just my opinion

[Marshal Rohr]

DC think more along the lines of a space marine version of an LBE, rather than a chest rig. All the gear is on the thighs, with minimal space of the armor taken up. Mostly the belt.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah that wouldn't be too bad and I mean the tac pouches on the hips aren't too bad.

 

I just can't see any sensible marine slapping countless magazines of 40mm grenades to his chest without worrying about someone hitting it :D

[A D-B]

I like a little bling. Monastic-bling, bionic-bling, ammo-bling, or cultural-bling - I'm usually in favour of it. What few Marines I've got done so far always have at least two extra bitz, be it grenades + pouches; pouches + holster; bionic arm + grenades, or whatever. 

 

I tend to prefer huge bionic eyepieces on a helmet too, even if a helm's autosenses are perfectly capable without it. 

 

I just like a little bit of... stuff.

 

Vet Sgt. makes some absolutely beautiful conversions on the "realistic/tactical" end of the spectrum, and they look great. I find (bizarrely?) that the more "realistic" Marines look, the less they feel like mythical future Dark Age warriors to me, and the more they look like sci-fi soldiers, which throws my perceptions off a bit. I like tabards and faulds and chains and bionics and ornate nonsense rather than too many spare magazines, but I'd never say it was wrong. Even if it's not for me, I still think it looks dead cool.

 

Regarding helmets, warriors have fought without helmets throughout history, despite how fantastically unwise it is. I get the madness of it, but I'm fine with Marines doing it. There's a beautiful moment in Virtues of War where Alexander leads the Companion Cavalry into the Persians, and when he loses his lance he tears his helmet off to use as a bludgeon. The moment he lifts it up high, ready to hammer it down on some poor goon's head, all of the Macedonians cheer because it looks like he's hailing their victory and being so ludicrously brave that he'll fight in the middle of an enemy regiment with his helmet off. Every Space Marine is a hero (or a mind-wiped automaton of war) on that level of bombastic battlefield might. Many of them are indoctrinated into a culture where glory - glory on a scale we can only imagine - is one of the few currencies in their lives. So I'm fine with Marines, uh, nutting up rather than shutting up, on that score.

[Marshal Rohr]

I like a little bling. Monastic-bling, bionic-bling, ammo-bling, or cultural-bling - I'm usually in favour of it. What few Marines I've got done so far always have at least two extra bitz, be it grenades + pouches; pouches + holster; bionic arm + grenades, or whatever. 

 

I tend to prefer huge bionic eyepieces on a helmet too, even if a helm's autosenses are perfectly capable without it. 

 

I just like a little bit of... stuff.

 

Vet Sgt. makes some absolutely beautiful conversions on the "realistic/tactical" end of the spectrum, and they look great. I find (bizarrely?) that the more "realistic" Marines look, the less they feel like mythical future Dark Age warriors to me, and the more they look like sci-fi soldiers, which throws my perceptions off a bit. I like tabards and faulds and chains and bionics and ornate nonsense rather than too many spare magazines, but I'd never say it was wrong. Even if it's not for me, I still think it looks dead cool.

 

Regarding helmets, warriors have fought without helmets throughout history. I get the madness of it, but I'm fine with Marines doing it. There's a beautiful moment in Virtues of War where Alexander leads the Companion Cavalry into the Persians, and when he loses his lance he tears his helmet off to use as a bludgeon. The moment he lifts it up high, ready to hammer it down on some poor goon's head, all of the Macedonians cheer because it looks like he's hailing their victory and being so ludicrously brave that he'll fight in the middle of an enemy regiment with his helmet off. So I'm fine with Marines, uh, nutting up rather than shutting up, on that score.

 

The balance Im trying to strike is between how I built my Black Templars (chains, tabards, candles, prayer scrolls) and Veteran Sergeant's guys. Half-future knight, half-soldier. I lack the creativity to figure out what that balance is though. 

[Excessus]

I usually fill out the waists of mine, as much as I have room for and so it still seems logical and practical. Pouches, grenades, holsters and such are all there. Most things though are scaled too large to actually look good there, so I just skip them.

[captain Angel]

I always thought that there was cavities in the armour, which the Marines stored grenades, ammo, etc.

 

But that is because i like a sparse model and like to keep the clutter off.  

[infyrana]

A D-B's comments remind me of William Marshall, a knight who often fought in tournaments around the 12th century.  For outstanding prowess he was to receive a reward, but they could not find him.  When they did, they found his him kneeling with head on an anvil having his helm removed by the blacksmith.  He had received so many blows to the head that he could not remove it.  Those tournaments are a very interesting read for those of you who want more insight into how the SM's might conduct themselves in 'realistic sparring' competitions.  Yes, helmets get knocked off or removed to increase visibility and movement, but in the world of bullets and hi-tech 360 vision and range finding etc, not something you want to lose too quickly.

 

Anyway, back to the topic.  A little kit-bling can go a long way, too much and it kills the look and makes them too bulky.  I like the idea of using maglocking for the marines, clean and sci-fi thinking with minimal clutter.  For food, meds and the small things, don't their suits contain some of the basics for short term use?  In which case, long term use would likely require they see an armoury to repair, power up, and resupply their suit.  For ammo and grenades, a certain amount on their person for sure, chances are high if they are using that much then they will see melee all too soon, resorting to picking from the dead or re-supply from drop ships or the back of their transport/other tanks.

 

If your troops are jump troops, you might want to consider the full pouch idea for safe keeping during air-time, maglocking for the ground marines, and pouches perhaps for those that will see less immediate action combat (ranged dev's, comms, recon).  Anyone expecting immediate melee probably doesn't want to be festooned with masses of leather mag pouches that clutter movement as well as make it more challenging to access.

 

For slings, you could use a simply 2-pt sling, strapped front and back for the marines that have other uses for their hand (comms, commanders, special weapons, vehicle crew when outside the tanks etc).  Or you could forgo the sling with the excuse of a Marine not needing to worry about weight, and with the marine only being employed when he will need to use it, so why would he ever sling it, and in addition, if you've run out of ammo and resorting to melee - you are either going to want it free to swing at someone or drop it so you can melee without obstruction.  1-pt slings do make rifles hit you in the 'junk' as said above, terrible thing, but shortly slung single point 'rig' slings are far nicer for temp storing whilst using your hands for other things (hanging with handle just around the chest/armpit area) and prob fit marines better, along with the maglock option.

 

Grenades, meltabombs, phosphex, sure!

 

If in doubt, the metal Death Company marines (2nd/3rd ed era) had a nice soft mix of grenades and pouches.  Just be sure to give the right size mags to the wearer - nothing worse than seeing someone wielding a tommy gun only to find they sport nothing by 5-round rifle clip pouches and empty pockets.

[infyrana]

I always thought that there was cavities in the armour, which the Marines stored grenades, ammo, etc.

 

But that is because i like a sparse model and like to keep the clutter off.  

 

You could do a robocop thing if you had bionic legs, that's what you have me thinking here !  Though I always wondered how bad that would affect the structure and strength of the leg holding an extended 93R where his thigh would be.  Yeah, I like less clutter, and it is rare to see any of my marines with anything extra on - but that does make me feel that I need to go back and add the odd grenade or pouch to a few.

[Sothalor]

Might I also suggest that this may vary based on the culture of the Legion in question?

 

Even during the Great Crusade, it's evident that the different legions adopt different outlooks, attitudes, beliefs, and paradigms towards making war. I could easily see astartes like the Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion using equipment that seems more "modern tactical" to us, whereas the Emperor's Children or Space Wolves, maybe not so much.

 

That said, the individual legions are large enough that I'm sure there's all kinds of variance within them.

 

So... at the end of the day... whatever you like and think looks good, go for it.

[Marshal Rohr]

Space Wolves would be easier to strike the balance I mentioned earlier. Some furs, pistol mag pouches, an empty holster, a slung rifle, with bolt pistol and axe in hand. The added gear says 'soldier', the axe and furs says future-viking-soldier. 

 

Chaos is similar in this regard. You can have all the things that say 'warp tainted', and all the things that say 'I've got enough ammo for this mission', on one model. With loyalist legions without a strong cultural influence like the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard (the only two without one), what helps balance it out?

 

 

If you will allow me to move the conversation into a slightly different direction. With Legions like the Ultramarines, it is easy to have a balanced 30K appropriate model, with the simple addition of a cingulum militare. The Dark Angels have the robes from the HH art books. One-Eye's white scars are the inspiration behind this discussion for me, as I find that to be the exact right balance, and the V Legion has obvious accoutrements that make them blend. The Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Iron Hands have their respective visual cues. The Raven Guard, to an extent, have the benefit of being able to include feathers and the like to blend their motif with their military aspects.

 

But where does this leave the VII Legion. What 'future warrior' motifs are unique to the Fists?

[Excessus]

Can always use something like this:

 

http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/product/rifle-strap-x5-1-1

[Brother Tyler]

...

But where does this leave the VII Legion. What 'future warrior' motifs are unique to the Fists?

In an era of warfare conducted by giant walking machines with the firepower to level cities, ship-to-ship battle across the vastness of space, robotic warriors piloted by the cerebral remnants of human beings hardwired into battle machines, and personal warfare conducted by augmented transhumans kitted out head to toe in power armour, every member of the VII Legion carries a sword into battle. Okay, sometimes it's a knife, relatively speaking; but in the hands of us regular peeps, it would qualify as a sword. You can keep your sissy chainsaw sword - real men fight with knives.

Switching back to the main question (because I thought long and hard about it), if I was going to drop from space onto a position held by a hostile enemy, with resupply uncertain for the immediate future and the likelihood of having to fight my way to a tenable position and hold for reinforcements, I'd want to have as much ammunition as I could carry. Knives and the lot are sexy and all, but killing the enemy at range by putting a .68 caliber hole in their forehead (and blowing them apart from the inside out) is so much more satisfying (and probably a bit more safe, especially when facing gribblies with lots of claws and big fangs).

The Adeptus Astartes don't generally need scopes and radios and what-not (optics in their helmets, targeters integrated into their bolters), and the systems built into the armour and inherent survivability of the average Adeptus Astartes render first aid kits much less important than they are in modern real world warfare, and the ability of the Adeptus Astartes to survive in hostile environments on whatever they can shove down their gullets make rations irrelevant. But you can never carry too much ammunition. You can keep your robes, your tabards, your chains, your wolf pelts, your fancy crested/winged helmets, etc. I'll take more ammunition (and grenades) any day.

Speaking of ammunition and how it is carried, and because my OCD kicks in at the oddest things, a quick lesson:

Clips are nice and all, but you'd better have some magazines to insert the ammunition into when you want to use it the way it was intended. Refilling a magazine is challenging when lead (or splinters, or shurikens, or projected energy, or whatever) is coming your way. It's much easier to just drop the empty mag, insert a new one, and send your enemies to meet their Maker.

Disclaimer: Brother Tyler doesn't expect to be conducting a vertical insertion by drop pod any time soon.

[depthcharge12]

Lol Tyler

 

I get OCD about it too and I don't even own one ;)

 

 

Somehow I feel like Space Marines would love taking more ammo into battle than anything, and the guy humping the heavy bolter across the battlefield gets a perverse pleasure out of just aiming and letting that thing go crazy on some heretics/orks/nids.

 

I know if I had to carry one of those damnable things around, the most ignominious death would be dying without letting that puppy go on full auto....

[Marshal Rohr]

Maybe I could scratch my own pouches out of plasticard and GS, then cast them for multiple copies?

 

The problem I see, model wise, is the thickness of the Bolter mag, but maybe shrinking it down to a more proportional size would be possible given the whole sculpture perspective thing (think David's hands, but with a magazine pouch). 

[Hyaenidae]

As an Iron Warrior player, my approach to tactical gear is simple. Find some cool Geardo bit, and make it primitive.

 

Fabric cloth? Bah, Leather. Old, soft, brown leather.

 

Ballistic Plastic? Nay, steel, I say. Or brass. Or, if I'm feeling really frisky at the painting table, wood. Something warm and alive, like oak or cherry.

 

Pro-Mask? Pfft, better be kicking four tubes, at a minimum. And a canister hanging from the waist.

 

Try it out, in your head. Look at an M4, and replace everything with Great War level tech. Anything you can't replace within logic, add a touch of Steampunk.

 

*shrug* Works for me.

 

EDIT: Well, I'll be damned. Found a Steampunk carbine...

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs44/i/2009/147/1/0/Nerf_Steampunk_Rifle_by_sonic_reducer.jpg

[SpecialIssue]

But where does this leave the VII Legion. What 'future warrior' motifs are unique to the Fists?

 

For the more gritty legions/chapters like the Fists, I don't imagine them having too many 'soft' embellishments like tabards, robes and purity seals. It'll all be metal icons, chains, script carved/embossed into armour plate, extra ablative protection etc. The only major exception would be flags - in the heroic GC era, I can imagine a proud martial legion like the Fists having a plenitude of heraldry waving in the air on backpacks and staffs as they advance. In fact, I might go and say that this is perhaps their main visual for me. Dozens of flags rippling back with the surge of advance, being shot up, scorched, torn. It resounds of greatness.

 

I also like the fusion of pragmatic tactical and medieval knightly visuals inherent in Marines. I kit em up heavily around the waist and sometimes lower leg, but like to keep the chest free for the important double-headed eagle and other heraldry. On the helm, combine advanced flip up bino-optics with studs, script or a golden double eagle.

 

The good thing is that 40/30k is all on a sliding scale. You can envision your marines as being as knightly or as 'tacticool' as you want. I'm sure between the massively disparate deployments of the Legions, and even more in the chapters of 40k, there will be good examples of both ends of the scale.

[Marshal Rohr]

Now all I can imagine is an M4 with a wooden stock and foregrip with and old timely long scope that goes all the way down the barrel and a massive blunderbuss grenade launcher underneath :P