Inquistion help?

[Inquisitor Fox]

I should elaborate my "Brother Captain Ferris" sometimes counts-as a Grand Master with a really nifty psycannon and Grand Strategy, but he's still a Brother Captain :)  I prefer to think of him as just really, really good. *winks*

[Valerian]

Aha! I knew it. Nobody, and I mean nobody fields a Brother Captain. Which is exactly why they should take my recommendation and give him a choice between TDA and Articifer Armour, then give him a +25 point upgrade option for a Personal Teleporter in our next Dex. Then maybe somebody which actually take one and then you might be able to actually make Interceptors a decent Assault Force.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Aha! I knew it. Nobody, and I mean nobody fields a Brother Captain. Which is exactly why they should take my recommendation and give him a choice between TDA and Articifer Armour, then give him a +25 point upgrade option for a Personal Teleporter in our next Dex. Then maybe somebody which actually take one and then you might be able to actually make Interceptors a decent Assault Force. 

No he's always going to be in TDA, that's tradition for the Chapter's officer corps. The only ones who don't wear TDA are the Bro Champs, and that's because they're technically just glorified bodyguards (they have no operational command at all). 

 

What they should do is give the Bro Champ a personal teleporter. He logically belongs with an assault unit, and seeing as he can't join Terminator squads (because he can't Derpstrike with them), Interceptors would really like his re-rolls and combat prowess. 

 

With the Brother-Captain, they should reduce both him and the GM by 25pts, then give the Brother-Captain 'Masterful Strategy', which is exactly like 'Grand Strategy' except it only applies to one unit, not D3. Then people would take the Brother Captain in smaller games, upgrading to a GM in larger games where you have more units to buff. 

[Valerian]

 

 

Aha! I knew it. Nobody, and I mean nobody fields a Brother Captain. Which is exactly why they should take my recommendation and give him a choice between TDA and Articifer Armour, then give him a +25 point upgrade option for a Personal Teleporter in our next Dex. Then maybe somebody which actually take one and then you might be able to actually make Interceptors a decent Assault Force. 

No he's always going to be in TDA, that's tradition for the Chapter's officer corps. The only ones who don't wear TDA are the Bro Champs, and that's because they're technically just glorified bodyguards (they have no operational command at all). 

 

What they should do is give the Bro Champ a personal teleporter. He logically belongs with an assault unit, and seeing as he can't join Terminator squads (because he can't Derpstrike with them), Interceptors would really like his re-rolls and combat prowess. 

I wasn't going to get into this, because we were discussing Brother Captains and not Brotherhood Champions, but offering Teleporters to Champions was one of the ideas that I had included in my old Fandex (now lost to the Warp) too.  It's definitely needed, as well as, giving him the option to Deep Strike (so he can join all units effectively).

 

With the Brother-Captain, they should reduce both him and the GM by 25pts, then give the Brother-Captain 'Masterful Strategy', which is exactly like 'Grand Strategy' except it only applies to one unit, not D3. Then people would take the Brother Captain in smaller games, upgrading to a GM in larger games where you have more units to buff. 

 

Just my opinion here, but that wouldn't make a bit of difference for most players in most games.  He's still going to be exactly like the Grand Master, but inferior.  Unless a player is really constrained with points, they are always going to spend the extra to get the GM.  That's the issue that you get when you've got two choices that fill the same role, and do/have the same stuff, the one that is better is always selected.  To make the Bro-Captain worthwhile, he has to be divergent from the GM in some meaningful way, otherwise he'll always be left behind.  We've seen this same outcome for years across multiple codices (Wolf Guard Battle Leader vice Wolf Lord, Company Captain vice Chapter Master, etc.).  When one choice is clearly better, players will almost always find the points to field the superior option.  The only way to make those lesser alternatives viable is that they have to do something different, yet relevant.

 

Which is why I recommend the option to trade TDA for AA (not the default wargear status, just an option), and then the option to then get a PT.  Providing a fluff-adjustment/justification would be easy and fairly unremarkable.

 

Regardless, I've been bad by continuing down a path that is probably going well off-topic, so my apologies for that.

[Quozzo]

Inquisitors should be given Psyker Mastery Level 1 which not only enhances their own performance in battle, but that of everyone else in their unit too, with prescience of course. If you're just using him with C:I then there is no need to take terminator armour as you get a free force sword when he's a psyker. If you plan on taking C:GK as allies (or even Red Hunters) then you might want to upgrade his armour to at least power armour so he can withstand the beating his unit will inevitably draw. Either way, sat in a unit of Plasma cannon servitors, Death Cult Assasins, Paladins, Purifiers or Tactical marines he will increase the units performance considerably and is still cheaper than a librarian, not to mention a GK libby. Ah, double checking it seems that C:I are battle brothers with all of the Imperium, how naive are everyone

With all the talk of teleporters, I always thought the idea of a chaplain would make a nice addition. In the old omnibus from Ben Counter, Alaric frequently talked to (and reminisced) about his chaplain. In the past I was against the idea of a psyker chaplain for the obvious reason that if he becomes corrupt he would inevitably walk the rest of the chapter down the wrong path, but with the advent of Ministorum Priests, they have pseudo psyker powers in the form of chants without the backlash. A chaplain would be the ideal candidate able to traverse the battlefield through the warp on a personal teleporter protected only by his faith. Chaplains could even be sourced from the purifier order to further shield them from the temptations of chaos.

[thade]

...with prescience of course....there is no need to take terminator armour.... *snip*

I don't mean to pick on you here, but your premises there are *very* common and I feel like I've addressed them in several other threads this week...so, I'm going to briefly once more.

"Prescience" is the psychic power equivalent of Coteaz, only it's endemic to all of 40k right now (not just us). If you're not playing in a tournie min-max game (or even if you are) it's still fine to NOT take prescience. Do so perhaps for the same reasons I caution against anything that's "auto-take"...to challenge yourself or just to shake things up. (I wish we'd start seeing tournaments flat out ban Prescience; or just give it to every Psyker, because - frankly - few aren't taking it.)

I feel similarly about dismissing termie armor for perceived points-to-power ratios; why not take it simply because it's thematically appropriate for the character you're building or just because it's awesome.

++ EDIT. Necessary clarifications. t++

[Quozzo]

I agree, prescience is not an auto include. Roll on the divination chart, see what you wanted and what you actually got, then take prescience.

 

I also don't like the way you paraphrased my sentences together. It could be misconstrued that my intention was make out terminator armour is irrelevant due to prescience, but actually it is not points effective if a force sword is free when taking the Psyker Mastery Upgrade, nor can inquisitorial warbands deepstrike and that crusaders are cheaper. If not taking prescience is "to challenge yourself" then it must be a good option to take, supported by the fact that so many are using it.

 

I also don't know what you're trying to say with that last sentence. You don't want people to take terminator armour because of it's (perceived) points to power ratio, because it's thematically appropriate or because they feel it's awesome. What else is left?

 

 

I realize this post may come across as aggressive, but that was not my intent.

[thade]

Apologies, I can see your confusion; a typo and exclusion on my part were at least partly to blame, so I've fixed those in-line above.

 

As I tried to emphasize, it's not YOU I was really aiming for there; it's the specific premise that "power-to-points ratio is everything" and its corollaries, such as "Telepathy is auto-take because Prescience is the best lv. 0 power" or "The only reason to take Terminator armor is if you get a points-to-power ratio benefit in doing so."

 

In answer to your question "What else is there?" my answer is just this: theme, art, coolness, to challenge yourself, for no particular reason since it's just a game.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Also note: There is nothing wrong with Hammerhand or Psychic Communion!!  In the right army lists, the melee buff to S for your DCA's and Crusaders is pretty brutal, particularly combined with a Priest.  If you have a lot of reserves, Psychic Communion is also a godsend.  It's all about what suits your playstyle.  Prescience is kind of a universal good power, and people use it like a crutch because it's "always there" and they can plan around it.  That doesn't mean other powers are no longer valid.

 

Having played Warhammer Fantasy for a long time (17 years or so) random "power" rolls really aren't that big a deal.  You tend to make your battle plan and figure your wizards will just be doing useful things to either help you or hinder your opponent.  Any plan that depends on one specific model getting one specific power tends to be a bad plan.  I prefer to consider my psykers and mages as gravy or sauce; they make a solid tasty meal even better, but they do not make the meal in and of themselves.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The problem is INP, 'Prescience' offers something we can get nowhere else. Re-rolls are extremely rare for Knight lists, it's basically Dreadnoughts (only certain weapons though) and Dreadknights (in melee). Strength buffs are nice but not essential, reserves bonuses matter little to us as we don't often have enough in reserve to worry about it (as we typically have small armies). Re-rolls make up for our lack of numbers, and further accentuate our melee and ranged superiority (at least at mid-range, we need Henchmen or Allies for long-range dakka). 

 

For other armies though, it's less clear. IG for example can twin-link using orders or simply with certain units/weapon options, so they'd rather have say 'Communion' to bring on Creed's Tactical Geniused squadron of LR Demolishers on an enemy flank via Outflank, and in IG blobs or on say Ogrn 'Hammerhand' is pretty amusing. 

 

'Hammerhand' and 'Communion' are both great powers, it's just that re-rolls are higher up the chain of 'stuff we need' usually. 

[Quozzo]

Oh I agree. Hammerhand and Psychic communion can be useful, as can the GK specific powers when picked by a librarian, because they are all sure things. I feel simarlarly with the daemon sword because although the effects are random they are all effective in melee combat.

 

Prescience is also a sure thing, one that enables failed rolls to hit, nearly doubling the effectivness of any weapon, but in both shooting and assaulting, and then again in their assault phase. For cheaper than a SM libby you get cheaper than super mastercrafted weapons on everything, and C:I or C:GK can take some sweet tech to make the most of it, including storm bolters and force weapons.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Re-rolls aren't doubling Sometimes in fact you're getting more benefit by the +1 to S (depending on unit).

BS 3 has a 50% chance of a hit, 75% with a re-roll (roughly).

BS 4 has a 66% chance of a hit, 87% with a re-roll (roughly).

Just from math, neither one of these is a double. But let's take a moment and examine application here. As this is a thread about Inquisition help as opposed to Grey Knight help, let's look at an Inquisitorial retinue situation that's likely to come up: Death Cult Assassins.

DCA vs Space Marine Equivs, re-rolls to hit vs +1S.

Hammerhand: 4 attacks on the charge at WS5, so hitting on 3's gives 2.6668 hits. Wounding on 3's gives 1.7779 wounds.

Prescience: 4 attacks on the charge at WS5 gives 3.5556 hits with re-rolls. Now wounding on 4's 1.7779 wounds.

Hunh, fancy that... it's just as efficient to have Hammerhand as Prescience with a DCA Now granted your best bet is Hammerhand, Prescience, and a Priest for re-rolls on the wounds.. (quite doable with a C: =][= list with 2 psychic Inquisitors, a retinue with some DCA's an a Priest, where only one of the Inquisitors needs to be in the unit)

Assuming all those rolls and activations go off, your DCA is boosted to:

4 attacks on the charge at WS5 with re-rolls for 3.5556 hits. Wounding on 3's with re-rolls for 3.1605 wounds.

It's NOT a gimp power. Also note that the Codex: Grey Knights version of Hammerhand is before things doubling like power fists (as opposed to the Codex: Inquisition version which is done afterwards). Both versions allow you to threaten or wound things you otherwise couldn't such as Monstrous Creatures, Vehicles, and Walkers (depending on weaponry involved). It's not just Prescience and done, it depends on what you plan on doing with the unit and where it's going.

To be fair, lets examine a bog-standard Grey Knight being boosed by Prescience vs Hammerhand. More of an academic curiosity since they can already Hammerhand themselves though.

Nemesis Force Sword

Hammerhand: 2 attacks on the charge hitting on 4's gives 1 hit. Wounding on 3's gives .6667 wounds.

Prescience: 2 attacks on the charge hitting on 4's with re-rolls gives 1.5 hits. Wounding on 4's gives .75 wounds

Here's the rub, let's also look at...

Nemesis Force Falchions

Hammerhand: 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 4's gives 1.5 hits. Wounding on 3's gives 1 wound.

Prescience: 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 4's with re-rolls gives 2.25 hits. Wounding on 4's gives 1.125 wounds.

What have we learned? What's so different between the DCA and the Grey Knight? Weapon Skill. The psychic powers make a larger impact giving the thing that the unit LACKS. The DCA is already hitting on 3's due to superior weapon skill, so the boost doesn't make as big of a difference for them. Hammerhand ups their S, making a 17% (roughly) difference on that die roll. The re-roll to hit when they were already hitting pretty well doesn't make as large of an impact.

Compare this to the Grey Knight, and the re-rolls to hit begin to make a larger difference because they aren't hitting as often to start with. It continues to factor down the line.

The point is we use psychic powers to fill the gaps that exist, and the gaps that exist are highly dependent upon your play style and units selected. It's just as important though to remember that Prescience only works ONCE. You cannot re-roll a re-roll. You CAN add Hammerhand and Prescience together. For a C: GK army Prescience becomes very useful because things already have Hammerhand. For a C: =][= army... it's much less clear, particularly since there are far fewer things that up your S in combat for things like Monstrous Creatures, Walkers, etc. and you are much more likely to have multiple Inquisitors with multiple instances of psychic powers (since our selection is relatively small).

EDIT: I should add that the combination of Hammerhand and Rad Grenades allows for some serious fun in certain situations involving insta-gibs and multiple wound models or monstrous creatures. FYI :)

EDIT 2: Clarified the difference between when Hammerhand is doubled since C:GK and C:=][= are different.

[Quozzo]

So it's a bit less than "nearly doubling" but hammerhand only works in the assault phase and only one assault phase so you would need to activate it twice per game turn, in your's and your enemy's turn. Increasing the chance of perils while reducing the ability to enable the force sword too.

 

What's really struck me is how effective hammerhand is. I never bothered crunching the numbers as I play GK so it's basically mandatory and prescience just increases that effectiveness, as you mentioned.

[Inquisitor Fox]

If you only had one psyker, and only planned on one psyker, I can see merit in Prescience overall giving a larger bonus to the majority of an army.

 

However, if you are playing Codex: Inquisition, you will in all reality have between two and four Inquisitor Psykers.  In that instance, having say, two of them with Prescience and one with Hammerhand begins to show a lot of merit.  If you insure that the psyker with Hammerhand is an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor who also is bearing Rad and Psychotroke Grenades.. well.. you get the idea.

 

Likewise, Psychic Communion is also useful if you are trying to Delay the arrival of certain reinforcement units.  It can be nice to have a unit or two drop in select spots after initial shots have been fired, something to keep them healthy and whole for late game reinforcements or maneuvers.  Again, it depends on play style and overall army composition or plan.

 

Prescience is a good power; it's useful and helps in a lot of situations.  Do not let yourself become blind to the other useful powers we have though just because Prescience is useful.

[Venemox]

...It's NOT a gimp power. Also note Hammerhand is before things doubling like power fists, and allows you to threaten or wound things you otherwise couldn't such as Monstrous Creatures, Vehicles, and Walkers (depending on weaponry involved). It's not just Prescience and done, it depends on what you plan on doing with the unit and where it's going... snip.

I don't believe this is correct. Way back in the base rule book, on page 2, under modifiers: It says mulitipliers, THEN additions/subtractions, THEN set values.

So, for powerfist and Hammerhand, it would be Strength x 2 (powerfist) +1 (Hammerhand). This would result in an odd number every time. This is important because it means Hammerhand cannot (on it's own) allow you Instant Death models you would not have already been able to. The remainder about being able to threaten MC's, vehicles, and walkers is still valid. In the case of ]I[ troops, Strength 3 doubled vs Strength 3 doubled +1 is being able to threaten Toughness 10 or not.

 

edit: spelling

[Inquisitor Fox]

I don't believe this is correct. Way back in the base rule book, on page 2, under modifiers: It says mulitipliers, THEN additions/subtractions, THEN set values.

So, for powerfist and Hammerhand, it would be Strength x 2 (powerfist) +1 (Hammerhand). This would result in an odd number every time. This is important because it means Hammerhand cannot (on it's own) allow you Instant Death models you would not have already been able to. The remainder about being able to threaten MC's, vehicles, and walkers is still valid. In the case of ]I[ troops, Strength 3 doubled vs Strength 3 doubled +1 is being able to threaten Toughness 10 or not.

 

edit: spelling

 

Ordinarily I would agree with you, however on Page 25 of the Grey Knight Codex, under the "Hammerhand" entry it specifically says the following:

 

"Note that this Strength bonus is applied before any other modifiers, such as for Nemesis Daemon hammers and so forth."

 

In other words, it works this way for Hammerhand because the entry for Hammerhand specifically says it does in our Codex.

 

We're cool like that ;)

[Venemox]

Hrm, interesting. That line is entirely missing from the Codex: Inquisition ePub. I just double checked. So... hooray for Grey Knights? No effect on Inquisitors not selected specifically from that Codex.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Hmmm... interesting... good to note though.  I was unaware of that difference.

[Venemox]

I just checked the most up to date iBooks version, and that difference between Hammerhand in C:GK and C:]I[ is still there. It's probably a misprint, but it is what is in the Codex.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I agree entirely.  I'll make an edit and correct the long post accordingly to point out the discrepancy.  It doesn't affect how I use my own personal warbands, but it's important to note.

[DinoDoc]

Is it possible to make a viable Assault Inquisition (based on either the GK or IQ dex) list?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

No. They're still just T3 humans with Guardsmen statlines for the most part. DCA and Crusaders are good in small doses, but you can't built an army out of them. 

[DinoDoc]

Aww. I was hoping there would have been a way to update this list for the current edition. It appealed to me.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

>YTTH

Not even once. Stelek exists on another plane. One where he is god and no one else can be right if they disagree with him. 

 

Sadly, 6th is all about the shooting phase. Melee is relegated to disruption and mop-up after close-range firefights. 

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've always found (even in prior editions) that an Inquisitorial Close Combat Retinue has always been better as a counter-attack unit than an attack unit.  DCA's are brutally awesome, and while Crusaders have a really good invuln save, they're all single wound T3 models.  Where they excel is as a "linebacker" unit (for those familiar with American Football) who's job is to stand right behind your front line of solid shooters (allied Stormtroopers, acolytes, plasma walls, etc) waiting for one of those units to get assaulted.  Once that happens, you enter the second round of melee with your counter-charge unit and annihilate it.  I had mine riding in a Land Raider for years, because the ride was durable enough to save the retinue for where I needed it.

 

It's hard to measure the "damage" or "kills" of such a unit, as it really depends on the target and how the game is going.  It works though, it really works.

 

I just wouldn't ever make an entire army out of it.  I mean, Tyrannids is an army of close combat and look how good they tend to do against a gunline ;)