Assault squads, worth it?

[Buster]

I'm currently building my compnay (6th reserve) but started thinking of adding some variety. Since im focusing on greenwing I'm looking at the assault squad. Does anyone have experience using them?

 

And I do know they dont fit in with a tactical reserve company, just looking for some advice on the unit. Thanks!

[Pyro X]

they are not bad for the cost (85 for 5 guys base), but we have other units that are better really for the fast attack slot. I could see them being viable if your running DW or RW with them. Most armies don't have room for them because 6th is mostly very shooty and they have pistols or flamers / plasma. Still I could see them working out if given a nice combo to assist other units.

[Gunny333]

If you're looking to have a backup when the SHTF and you are too close to shoot those 2 attacks in CC are nice. I enjoy rolling them up to Tau in a Rhino and laugh at the slaughter

[Fallen11]

If you plan to use them in drop pod, they seem great and cheap for 2 flamers in free pod ;)

[Master Avoghai]

I usually play a 1850pts "battle company list" with 4 tactical, 2 assault squads and one devastator supported by 2 WW and 5 knights and it does work very well.

With 2 flamers each and a vet sgt with power sword they provide a nice counter attack force and don't lead the knights alone when it comes to get a line breaker point or engage enemy units.

 

Like PyroX says, it's not they are bad, it's that they occupy a FA slot that is precious for including powerful units like knights... And once you've taken 2 units of knights you actually don't have any points to give to The 3rd FA slot as you need to purchase your troops/HS units...

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

As always the Master has it. I guess I am one of the few in the Forum who runs Assault Squads regularly. I often take two squads with JP and will set one up as the HQ retinue/escort. While expensive I give them Three Plasma Pistols and either a Powerfist Sgt or Power Sword with Melta Bombs.

 

What you have to do with Assault Squads is think of them a bit different than other units. They aren't ever going to hose a Dedicated Assault unit from other codeci. They do however do awesome at wiping out troops or Devastator type units. I like to think of mine as a QRF (Quick Reaction Force). I usually have four Squads of Tac's so what I do is let the Assault squads sit back and then move up to either counter charge or act as a speed bump if they don't have a Character in them. They are great because they can go completely over terrain. Hammer of Wrath I find to be rare but sometimes it works and is nice. I always attach either a Libby or a Reclusiarch and sometimes a Chapter Master with them. Expensive but it works well for me after you figure out what units to put them against. The other thing to remember is sometimes you need a sacrificial unit (or in my case I always need one) so they do some damage and let you get into position and if they survive they have the movement to get into more than one melee per game.

 

I like them if you can't tell and use them often during THE MOMENT. You know the one. Around turn two or three when you've figured out your opponent is way smarter than you and unleashes their diabolic plan that you didn't see coming. I look at it and say to myself "Self..........you have a problem. I need to tie that up or move something over there." Then the epiphany hits and I have my Assault Squad sitting behind cover being ignored because.............'They're just an assault squad only the BA ones work.' Along this vein they are also excellent as running up a flank and once again they get ignored because they are just an assault squad. Then I get a good game and the Reclusiarch and Company roll up half the opponents army and I get the  'I will never ignore Assault squads again.' Speech.

 

Anyway I suggest using them and try different loadouts and tactics. Drop Pods, Rhino's if that's your shtick, try Jump Packs and see how they do. I fell for them when I had a squad with Chaplain wipe an entire Nobz squad with Doc and Big mek HQ. It was nowhere near normal and I was very lucky with some rolls however using them to react to your opponent is the best way I've found for them to get a good result. Sometimes not their points back but often enough a vital tool to be used if you are running mostly greenwing.

 

I love DW and RW and run both and Dualwing but some days I need nothing but greenwing and Assault squads give me a great showing every time.

 

But remember "What the Master says is the way of inner circle."

 

DoC

[captain sox]

I think the above posts nailed it. They (like everything in our Codex) do have a use. Are they worth it? If you are building a list/army with just the Flavour of the Month (Black Knights, Standard of Devastation, and all the other bag of tricks stuff) then no, they have have no use / value. IF you do however want to build an army that is flexible and fun, then they have lots of value. All depends on what YOU want.

 

:)

[FlamingDeth]

I don't use them unless I'm running a fluff battle company list, or if I want them to escort an HQ with a jump pack. Having them paired with a company master or chaplain of some variety (or both) is always fairly killy, and as opposed to bikers, can actually get up stairs. The two assault squads I have in my battle company are the cheap one - just flamers and a meltabomb, which usually accompanies a barebones chaplain with JP in low point games, and the expensive one - plasma all around and power axe on the sergeant, which usually accompanies a fist/claw JP master around. He also carries an auspex, because there are worse things than shooting plasma pistols at guys with reduced cover.

[Master Sheol]

Assault squads are the Second weakest entry in FA section after the flyers but they are decent...

My only regret is that they lack some of the options Assault squads have in SM or BA codices...

They are still a copy/paste of the old Assault Squads from the bad 4th codex and this is a pity...

[Cactus]

Assault squads are the Second weakest entry in FA section after the flyers but they are decent...

My only regret is that they lack some of the options Assault squads have in SM or BA codices...

They are still a copy/paste of the old Assault Squads from the bad 4th codex and this is a pity...

 

Not quite. They're a copy/paste plus flamers.

[Master Sheol]

 

 

Assault squads are the Second weakest entry in FA section after the flyers but they are decent...

My only regret is that they lack some of the options Assault squads have in SM or BA codices...

They are still a copy/paste of the old Assault Squads from the bad 4th codex and this is a pity...

Not quite. They're a copy/paste plus flamers.

You are right... They added flamers... My only regret is that Vetock could have tooled better For the CC the Assault sergeant with SS and things like that...

[SvenONE]

I echo others' feelings that they are just a weak entry that doesn't really do anything bikes or deep striking terminators can't.  The one good thing about our Assault Marines is that they are stubborn, so they're much harder to shake than your standard tacticals, especially if you have a banner nearby to re-roll the offchance you fail a LD.

 

I would say though if you were really bent on having them, I'd just run BA as allies.  It will cost you more, but you'll be getting better options and I think results.  You'd also get to keep your FA slot free.

[Master Avoghai]

It's funny because I remember a v3-mid v4 time when RW bikes used to cost 40pts and assault marines 22pts and I was the first to say I fail to see something the bikes do that the assault marines can't for less points... :rolleyes:

[FlamingDeth]

I'm not sure who you're echoing, most of the people in the thread are saying good things about them. For what they do that bikes and terminators can do instead, how about having twice the amount of attacks for the same price? They can also redeploy faster and easier than terminators, and get on to the second level of ruins that bikes can't. They aren't bad, it's just dependent on how you're building your list.

[SvenONE]

I combined 2 thoughts without realizing, sorry about that I agree with others that they are weak when compared the Fast Attack slot they take up compared to our other entries.  I also think that they are extremely situational and don't fall into the same general purpose that bikes and terminators do (tough, ranged and melee options).

 

Also, in all my games running RW, I've never felt hampered by models on 2nd+ levels of of terrain, maybe that's also because I run flamer bike squads pretty regularly.  If a pack of wolves chases you and you climb up a tree, are you really that safe?

 

As I say with almost all of our sort of 2nd tier codex entries, they aren't bad at all, I'd just rather spend points on something else.

[Master Toddius]

I've been playing Dark Angels since the first codex and I haven't used my assault squad in more than 4 or 5 games. The Deathwing and Ravenwing do it better imho. And now that we have vets and black knights i just don't see a point in taking assault squads at all.

Black Knights have more attacks, can move across the battlefield at almost double their speed (depending on your run roll) WITH cover saves, and have better firepower + hit and run.

[Master Avoghai]

I've been playing Dark Angels since the first codex and I haven't used my assault squad in more than 4 or 5 games. The Deathwing and Ravenwing do it better imho. And now that we have vets and black knights i just don't see a point in taking assault squads at all.

Black Knights have more attacks, can move across the battlefield at almost double their speed (depending on your run roll) WITH cover saves, and have better firepower + hit and run.

Points wise you have 5 assault marines for the price of 2 knights so it's not really fair to compare them squad by squad... Their size makes them easier to hide and they have more A to compensate the -1S.

 

Of course it's hard to stand the concurrence of the knights but comparing to the standard bikes, they don't have to be ashamed.

[Polythemus]

Here is my take on the assault squad. they are not the same power as the terminator or black knight but thats not really comparing apples to apples. the assault squad is a unit that really is competeing with bikes. these days people run the bikes as troops and so the competition is lessened even more. the assault squad certainly has novelty appeal and is good for clearing troops or mobile units that are not cc specialists (warp spiders, guardians, kroot, firewarriors, guardsmen, pink horrors, cultists, CSM, ork boyz, necron warriors (although i always encounter these in those damn night sycthes) . they work well in a greenwing list due to the reduced price of the other elements of the list and so their is more room to justify points expenditure on them. more so if they are accompanied by a 2+ jump pack independent character. 

 

like the knight in chess they are best used as a harassment unit. they will not likely win you the crown, but may contribute to the solution in a meaningful way due to there unorthodox movement and unpredictability. the combonation with whirlwinds is particularly effective when your opponent has exposed troop squads.  spreading out the troops will protect them from the blast, but leaves them more exposed to being pulled into cc.

[Master Toddius]

 

Master Avoghai, on 26 Feb 2014 - 13:44, said:

Master Toddius, on 26 Feb 2014 - 11:25, said:
I've been playing Dark Angels since the first codex and I haven't used my assault squad in more than 4 or 5 games. The Deathwing and Ravenwing do it better imho. And now that we have vets and black knights i just don't see a point in taking assault squads at all.
Black Knights have more attacks, can move across the battlefield at almost double their speed (depending on your run roll) WITH cover saves, and have better firepower + hit and run.

Points wise you have 5 assault marines for the price of 2 knights so it's not really fair to compare them squad by squad... Their size makes them easier to hide and they have more A to compensate the -1S.

Of course it's hard to stand the concurrence of the knights but comparing to the standard bikes, they don't have to be ashamed.

Black knights are more expensive, granted. But what you gain in force multipliers is well worth the point costs above and beyond what assault marines have to offer IMHO. They come fully equipped.
Assault Marines are 85 points base. Then you add in a flamer, a PW, plasma pistols, ect ect:

Serg: Plasma Pistol / PW / Vet

Flamer 

Plasma Pistol / CS

Bolt Pistol / CS  

=145pts

=3.45 Black Knights

 

Take it a step further and run a 10 man assault squad:

Serg: Plasma Pistol / PW / Vet

Flamer 

Plasma Pistol / CS

x7 Bolt Pistol / CS  

=230pts

=5.4 black knights

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm finding my bikers of all kinds are having difficulty with Markerlight firers on 2nd and third floor buildings (we often play with multiple 3-4 story buildings).

My WW only hits the top and by bikers can't assault them leaving sitting nice and close and shooting up into the building as my only achievable option. Whilst there I have almost NO cover saves due to the lights until they are dead so my so called tough bikers die like an assault marines to Ion cannon and massed rifle fire.

I am seriously thinking about including at least one squad in my next list vs.Tau just to get the meaty force multiplier bits of the enemy out of the way.

Assault Marines are absolutely made for Kill Team though, cheap and nasty and mobile (unless you kill yourself with insanely poor DT rolls :devil: )

[Master Toddius]

I'm finding my bikers of all kinds are having difficulty with Markerlight firers on 2nd and third floor buildings (we often play with multiple 3-4 story buildings).

My WW only hits the top and by bikers can't assault them leaving sitting nice and close and shooting up into the building as my only achievable option. Whilst there I have almost NO cover saves due to the lights until they are dead so my so called tough bikers die like an assault marines to Ion cannon and massed rifle fire.

I am seriously thinking about including at least one squad in my next list vs.Tau just to get the meaty force multiplier bits of the enemy out of the way.

Assault Marines are absolutely made for Kill Team though, cheap and nasty and mobile (unless you kill yourself with insanely poor DT rolls )

I'm that beardy jerk who runs the 3 Riptide army with lots of pathfinders and in this instance the best way to kill pathfinders outside the realm of WW's is mass tyhoons IMHO. HB's and Frag rounds. Have the Black Knights out flank and try and catch a rip tide on the flank or crisis suits.

Hard to pull off at times but its a pretty effective tactic.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Typhoons certainly were my other option; maybe I'll do both as most Typhoons sit in the Troops slots for us leaving Aslt Sqds, RWBKs and maybe a RWSSqn for more Typhoon love. :D

[march10k]

Wait...did someone say they're situational? I couldn't agree less. Tactical squads are said to be the swiss army knife unit...but that's only true in the list building phase. Jumpers are the true flex unit once dice drop. They can get where you need them and do something to help the situation. They basically do the same thing as a RAS, except that they show up with more wounds and trade some shooting range (and get no melta option) for more melee swings. Situational? They're the polar opposite of situational!

[Solly]

I haven't had a large effect with my assault squad in a game but i include it (them, when i make the second one) as im trying to re-create the 4th company (with dw+rw armies added on) and it fits the fluff. i also think they look really nice.

 

even though they might not manage to achieve much i use them as i enjoy doing it. I tend to play for the fun of the game though rather then competition wise.

[shabbadoo]

DiscipleofCalibianSgt: As always the Master has it.

For the most part, yes....but not quite. Nobody is being forced to take Black Knights as a FAST ATTACK slot, so they do not necessarily compete with Assault Squads or anything else in the FAST ATTACK slot. That is because RW Black Knights are also available in the form of the Ravenwing Command Squad (an HQ choice which does not even use an HQ slot). Everyone should also note that RW Command Squad members cost 2 points less *each* than standard RW Black Knights do. Why? Because GW are morons, that's why! So, if we simply use the FOC in this way to take units that we want, and also get up to a 10-point price break when doing so (if you run Scouts without sniper rifles then this gives you back some of what you are paying for and not getting), we can still take three FAST ATTACK choices as well. And so we can do something like this:

HQ- Some guy

HQ- Some other guy

(HQ)- 5 x RW Command Squad

(HQ)- 5 x RW Command Squad

ELITES- Some unit

ELITES- Some unit

ELITES- Some unit

TROOPS- Some unit

TROOPS- Some unit

TROOPS- Some unit

TROOPS- Some unit

TROOPS- Some unit

TROOPS- Some unit

FAST ATTACK- Assault Squad: Vet. Sgt. w/power weapon & meltabombs; 2 x flamer

FAST ATTACK- Assault Squad: Vet. Sgt. w/power fist; 2 x meltagun

FAST ATTACK- RW Support Squadron; 3x RW Land Speeder Typhoon w/ multi-melta

HEAVY SUPPORT- Some unit

HEAVY SUPPORT- Some unit

HEAVY SUPPORT- Some unit

...or whatever.

I can take those Assault Squads, or pretty much whatever else I want to. The point is that we have really great choices as to how we can build army lists. We can get these (HQ) units, but we are not forced to build them with standard bearers and apothecaries, and can instead build them just as if they were standard units of Deathwing or RW Black Knights (and treat them just like that in-game). We are a bit spoiled in the (HQ) section by having access to three veteran units with different platforms- power armor, bikes, TDA. This is extremely useful with regard to list versatility. We can take up to 2 x 5 Deathwing or RW Black Knights without even touching the ELITES or FAST ATTACK slots, leaving us free to take the other units from those sections. Very useful, that. It also allows us to run up to 40 Deathwing or RW Black Knights in one FOC without fielding any special character whatsoever. Not that we will be able to do that in smaller games anyways (that many RW Black Knights would cost 1660 base [and $700!], and the Deathwing even more), and if we wer to fiel that many then the game would be large enough that you would get two FOCs anyways. In effect, we can take 5 ELITES or 5 FAST ATTACK choices in *any* Dark Angels list without any special character needing to be taken. That is a *standard* feature for us, and it is pretty dang awesome if you ask me.

And so the Assault Squad is not robbing us of anything. The only army it can rob is one that wants to have lots of Bikes/Land speeders/Fliers...but which, for some reason, does not include Sammael. The FAST ATTACK choices are supposed to mostly be rare, and so they are, but we can still take tons of them if we want to (i.e. if we take Sammael). As it is, with Sammael we can include all but one existing RW unit in a legal army, and using only one FOC. Maybe that just means that they included one too many Ravenwing units in the new codex though. I never really considered this before, but not including the HQs, there are 3 Deathwing units, *8* Ravenwing units, 10 Greenwing units (including the tanks/transports that is), 1 Scout unit, and 4 other units that can be for Deathwing/Greenwing (the Dreadnought and Land Raiders). This is not Codex: Ravenwing, but it is not very far from it.

And the Assault Squad prices have dropped by 5 points per model. It was hard to justify using them previously, but I still used them as mobility and close combat could be big deciding factors in games. While they are still not any sort of uber unit, it is much easier to justify taking them at their current price. It also helpful that Sergeants have combi-weapon access now too. Assault Squads have good armor, equipment, and abilities (just as all marines do), but they also have good movement options at a low price. Jump packs equivocate to good movement all game long, while the Drop Pod equivocates to immediately being able to get them where you want them and not having the unit count toward the total number of units you can hold in Reserve (i.e. they go well with Deathwing Assault). Oh, and a 5-man unit effectively gets a 15 point discount on their Drop Pod, but I really do prefer a 10-man unit for the staying power, and the capability to wreak havoc that staying power allows for. People often poo poo Assault Squads, and Dreadnoughts for that matter, but they are two units that I like, and i enjoy finding ways to make them useful during games (especially against people who think they are crap).

I hope I didn't run off on too much of a tangent there.