Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 ^^ Well Said Shab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 DiscipleofCalibianSgt: As always the Master has it. For the most part, yes....but not quite. Nobody is being forced to take Black Knights as a FAST ATTACK slot, so they do not necessarily compete with Assault Squads or anything else in the FAST ATTACK slot. That is because RW Black Knights are also available in the form of the Ravenwing Command Squad (an HQ choice which does not even use an HQ slot). Everyone should also note that RW Command Squad members cost 2 points less *each* than standard RW Black Knights do. Why? Because GW are morons, that's why! :lol: So, if we simply use the FOC in this way to take units that we want, and also get up to a 10-point price break when doing so (if you run Scouts without sniper rifles then this gives you back some of what you are paying for and not getting), we can still take three FAST ATTACK choices as well. Well I was not only talking about FOC slots : Like PyroX says, it's not they are bad, it's that they occupy a FA slot that is precious for including powerful units like knights... And once you've taken 2 units of knights you actually don't have any points to give to The 3rd FA slot as you need to purchase your troops/HS units...The problem is that, once you have taken your 150pts HQ + 500pts RWBK + 300pts troops choices... It leaves you few points to include an assault squad particulary considering you haven't chosen your HS yet! There's also a psychological aspect... RW units are units particular of codex DA. Assault squads are just assault squads... People are collecting DA because it allows them to play units different from vanilla codex... So of course, if they have the choice between 2 squads, of close efficiency, one is standard, the other one is emblematic, they will choose the emblematic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'm sorry I gotta take some of you to task here. If assault marines are so well received how come I see so little of them in lists people present in the lists section of this very forum, OR as suggestions to people's lists that don't naturally have them in there. It's one thing when I see them in the FLGS with other DA players, but another when they are almost never a part of the conversation online (an environment that moves much faster than a local shop). I've also personally never finished a game and thought to myself I really needed Assault Marines to deal with X, or that Assault Marines would have solved whatever problem I was having. The list that jumps out to me the most is some sort of Greenwing/Banner foot slogging list or thematic lists that are built around them, like a jump pack librarian/company master where they really just act as the ablative wounds to deliver our IC to the fray. When it comes to RW or DW lists, I don't really see a situation in which you'd say "oh i've got 85 points leftover", you'd most likely have to be making concessions to get them in there. The most effective use of Assault Marines I've ever seen have always come from BA players, D6 scatter with rerolls, FNP with a priest attached, expanded weapon loadouts all while being troops. It circles back to the fact they obviate the need to fill troops slots with other things and can just go right in there. We on the other hand have to spend it on tacs (if you're going to pod or rhino them we're talking at least 200 points) or scouts, or furthermore, bikes or terminators (to which we have spent a considerable amount to allow them to do that). Then on the xenos side you've got things like wraiths which are fast, fearless, and dish out a ton of hits and can easily wound. I don't want to poo-poo on people's take on assault marines, but I'm just not buying that they're as great a unit as people say they are when they're rarely being suggested outside of threads like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 SvenOne, the point is not assault marines being a no-brainer choice that you should see in every list like RWBK, command squad with dakka banner or whirlwinds... Assault marines are average... Not crap, not excellent but average If you analyze the army lists generally posted, you rarely see standard bikes taken as FA. When you see some, it's because you have Sammael. It's not bikes are bad. It's because they suffer from the concurrence with knights, points wise and slot wise. Taking them as troops resolve both the problem : 1- they don't occupy FA anymore 2- they can use the amount of points mandatory for the troops choice. It's the only reason why you see bikes. They are average as a FA choice. Now let's imagine someone not using Sammael. He has a free FA slot and 160pts left. He needs a mobile squad with 2/3 flamers... Do you think he will take 8 assault marines with 2flamers and a combi flamer or 5bikes with the same load out? Most of the time, he will take the bikes. Not because they are better, just because it's RW and RW is cool and is characteristic of the DA. That's why you don't see that much assault squad in the lists. Assault marines are just assault marines. Bikes are Ravenwing. I have "company list" consisting of Libby Techmarine with harness and combi flamer Tactical with combi flamer and flamer in a pod Tactical plasma ML Tactical plasma ML Tactical plasma PC 5 black knights 8 assault marines with 2 flamers 8 assault marines with 2 flamers Deva (10) with 4 LC Whirlwind Whirlwind Aegis defense line with quadAC This list works very well and always cause problem to my opponent because of a high model count I hardly see how to replace assault marines by anything else in this list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Fair enough and I can see the effectiveness of a list like that, color me convinced that Assault Marines can have their place. But when I look at lists or model entries I frame their context via the DA codex and using the things that make it unique. I would only say that looking at this list, while the RWBK are great and add a touch of DA, this list mostly looks like something you would see with a C:SM list, and can probably benefit from chapter traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 Yup probably it could... But without the RWBK it would certainly be more difficult. They are the center point of this list. Neglect them and you'll be in trouble. Take care of them, and my assault squads + poded squad will take care of yours. I actually fail to see what unit would replace them in a vanilla list. And the 2000pts list contains more DA units thanks to the dakka banner ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyfax Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 I think most has been said already, it's a decent unit and certainly has it's uses. From personal experience I find they work best for me at lower point battles, say around 1000 points or so. I usually pair them up with a Jump Pack Company Master with MoR and Artificer armor, and granted he does most of the heavy lifting, but the I find the combination of the two works really well at low point levels. Additionally they are excellent 'building clearers', especially at the point levels where you dont have the firepower to just blast everything out of the ruins. I also like them as interceptors, tie up the badass melee enemies so you can get your shooty units away / facing the right way. And what I like, but perhaps thats more a playstyle thing, it's one of those units where you don't die a little inside once you fail your armor save again...happens to me too often with terminators / black knights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 You know you can take an honest to god battle company in 1850, right? That'd include two full assault squads, and in that context, they'd be pretty useful, not to mention fluffy: HQ is company master with PFG (joining missile devs) and prescience libby with PFG (joins lascannon devs). Six ten man tactical squads, three of them with flamers, no other upgrades. two ten man assault squads with dual flamers in both squads. ten man lascannon devs and ten man missile devs. 102 MOARines for 1850. Now, dat's a green tide, and perfect comp scores to boot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamingDeth Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Haha, yeah, that's fun and surprisingly difficult to kill. I try to go with half companies at that point level though because I like to bring some toys with me. Can't go anywhere without a pair of vindicators! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 MasterAvoghai: There is no requirement to take both of the RW Command Squads though (it is just one of many options), and who says that one must take Heavy Support choices? There are effective Elites and Fast Attack choices one can take instead. How about taking 15 Land Speeder Typhoons? If I had 15 of them, I would have to field them at lest once, just to do it! Sure, not many will do that, but they need not do it anyways. There are many options in the army list, and I do like model variety, and so I often take Heavy Support choices for that reason alone. I get where you are coming from, but so far as building army lists is concerned, Dark Angels do not suffer much from restrictions. SvenOne: I don' think we see as many people talking about Assault Squads because of the new units/models which are *not* Assault Squads. Most people seem more than a bit fixated on the new shiny things. The Greenwing does have some adherents though, such as Stobz, who I hope has been bating peoples' faces in with his nicely painted Greenwing units. I bet that if there had been a new Assault Squad set released, especially one that either came with Dark Angels bits or that was prominently featured painted up in Dark Angels colors, more people would be using them/talking about them. People don't talk quite so much about Greenwing units, and usually focus more on what makes Chapters different from each other, not what is the same and so seen to be less interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Well I've already made the test list to play a DA company for a standard game. I don't manage to make it lower than 2000pts and it's not optimal as I'd prefer having combi flamers in my tactical and the standard if devastation. Also, this list hasn't room for the company chaplain or the company librarian as well as for the transport :( I think 2500pts I could make it Master Avoghai, company master with Lion's Roar and power sword 135pts Command squad with company banner and apothecary 130pts Tactical (10) Flamer/ML160 pts Tactical (10) Plasma gun/LC175pts Tactical (10) Plasma gun/PC 170pts Tactical (10) Flamer/HB 155pts Tactical (10) melta/ML165pts Tactical (10) Melta/MM 160pts Assault squad (10) 2 flamers180 pts Assault squad (10) 2 flamers180 pts devastator(10) 2 PC 2 MM : 190pts devastator(10) 2 LC 2HB :200 pts Total : 2000pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 You really need 2,500 points to run a full Company list, and even then it will be a bit light on things. 3,000 points is the optimal size to run such a list, as then you can put in all of the usual suspects, such as the other HQs, Dreadnoughts, and some auxiliary armored units. With those it looks like a real army. At 2,000 points, a demi-company looks really good. Funny thing is, I used to game with guy who built every army he had around a gimmick. He built 2,000 point lists, and gamed with them everywhere, with anyone. His Space marines gimmick was "foot-slogger bolter death", and in 2,000 points he fielded 101 marines (6 Tactical Squads, 1 Assault Squad, 3 Devastator Squads). I took that behemoth on with my standard 1,500 point army list, but with 500 added in the form of a Deathwing Squad and one or two other units. I can't remember it exactly, but it had all of the following: * DA Company Master with jump pack, power sword, plasma pistol, meltabombs* Librarian with jump pack, plasma pistol, meltabombs* 5 x Deathwing Terminators* 10 x Tactical Squad* 10 x Tactical Squad* 10 x Tactical Squad* 10 x Assault Squad* 10 x Assault Squad * Land Speeder Tornado* 10 x Devastator Squad* Whirlwind Most people we knew didn't field as much power armor as I usually do, let alone what he had in this army. We preceded to just plain butcher one another. I won the game partially because I took out his one Assault Squad and then got my own Assault Squads stuck in close combat where they couldn't be shot up, and where they had the edge. I really had to make a point of doing that after my Deathwing Squad took 12 wounds from bolters and heavy bolters, and three 1's for saves came up (this game was about 15 years ago, but I still remember that! ). The game was characterized by brutal exchanges of massed firepower, and a massive body count. Utter Pyrrhic victory, which makes it one of the most fun games I have ever played. People watched that game and enjoyed it just as much as we both did playing it. And now we have Overwatch back in the game, even if in a more limited form, so there is that too. I do like the "foot-slogger bolter death" list, but it does need just a little bit more ranged anti-armor to be effective against what many people bring to the table nowadays. Of course that ranged stuff can be swapped out for close combat stuff too. Every marine coming with krak grenades standard now doesn't hurt either. I would try out 6 Tactical Squads, 3 Assault Squads and one Devastator Squad. Ditch the Command Squad, put a jump pack on your Company Master (I would swap out Lion's Roar for something else too), and you might even be able to fit in a bare bones Level 1 Librarian with a jump pack too (though I would only do that as an afterthought). The strength of the list is in relying on what marines are better than average at, which is everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 How about: Master with power sword and meltabombs, command squad with company banner and apothecary five ten man plas/plas squads two ten man assault squads, naked ten man lascannon dev squad ten man missile dev squad 1850 on the nose with 96 marines...it's a full battle company with one tactical squad "serving as" the command squad...Realistically, you could do the sixth tactical squad in lieu of the command squad, and it'd be more powerful, but you really can't deploy a battle company without the company banner!!! And I almost have the models...ATM, I'd be short an assault squad, half a dev squad, and a few weapons swops... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyocum Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 All I need to make 3rd company complete is the 2 assault squads, plus the transports and maybe a D3 dreads. I plan to get those assault guys here and there as I can, though I'm not 100% sure about the loadout I'll be taking. And, I love the exact idea of a complete battle company coming to kick in someone's teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 For display purposes, I have one sergeant with a power axe (edit...and plasma pistol) and the other with a power sword, and then two jumpers each with flamers and plasma pistols...but for gaming, I'll have enough extra models...six extra naked jumpers, two extra flamers, and two extra plasma pistols, for maximum flexibility...takes 30 to make 20, lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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