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Going forgeworld - sell me the Horus Heresy

Silver fang

By Silver fang
in + AGE OF DARKNESS +

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E.G.J. Battle-Brother

E.G.J.

Posted
Posted

Ok, first off I don't have a dog in this whole 40k vs. 30k debate so take my two cents for what they're worth.  Also, I haven't played an actual game since ca. 1992 so I can't say anything regarding differences in rules etc, but based on what I've read here on B&C 30k has been a breath of fresh air.

 

That being said, perhaps someone could explain how 30k is more flexible in terms of modeling and fluff?  A couple of posts here have suggested the sky is the limit when it comes to designing your armies, but there are also a number of posts that indicate that one needs to chose one's army carefully in order to see what units/equipment they can take (if I am interpreting that right), which seems somewhat at odds with any notion of flexibility.  

 

So, can one design one's own legion in 30k or are players/hobbyists restricted to the 18 wherein they may choose from loyalist or traitor forces?  This is rather important since it does restrain creativity somewhat, at least in comparison to 40k where people can invent their own chapters and fluff.

 

In that same vein, we know some can be hyper-vigilant about what is appropriate fluff and what "traits" are acceptable for what successor chapters, but how does that play out in 30k.  How rigid are people out there, especially since armies seemingly need to conform to some aspect of the 18 legions?  I.e. would a hobbyist catch flak for creating an infantry heavy White Scars army or a speeder heavy World Eaters since both would deviate from the established theme of each legion?  The point being that if people react negatively to the above it is far less likely that the sky is the limit when it comes to one's army design.  

 

I ask these questions both for myself and because I think that anyone who's thinking about investing a lot of time and money into a new vein of the franchise deserves to have a nuanced range of opinion on what they are getting into, beyond "it is super awesome, come join us."

 

Personally I really like the idea of creating armies that would be compatible with both 30k and 40k.  It doesn't have to be one or the other.  It can still be both.  Can't it? 

 

  

Disruptor_fe404 Veteran

Disruptor_fe404

Posted
Posted

So, can one design one's own legion in 30k or are players/hobbyists restricted to the 18 wherein they may choose from loyalist or traitor forces?

 

There's a lot of scope and variability within 40k to do what you want with what you want. You can do a lot with any of the Legions.

 

But you are indeed limited to the original 18.

Which is one of the reasons I haven't started a Heresy-era force myself.

 

Mind you, if someone is playing 30k/HH, I imagine they're less interested in building their fluff completely from scratch anyway, and would much prefer to tell their own story within the constraints of the original Legions.

Jareddm Veteran

Jareddm

Posted
Posted

So, can one design one's own legion in 30k or are players/hobbyists restricted to the 18 wherein they may choose from loyalist or traitor forces?  This is rather important since it does restrain creativity somewhat, at least in comparison to 40k where people can invent their own chapters and fluff.

 

In that same vein, we know some can be hyper-vigilant about what is appropriate fluff and what "traits" are acceptable for what successor chapters, but how does that play out in 30k.  How rigid are people out there, especially since armies seemingly need to conform to some aspect of the 18 legions?  I.e. would a hobbyist catch flak for creating an infantry heavy White Scars army or a speeder heavy World Eaters since both would deviate from the established theme of each legion?  The point being that if people react negatively to the above it is far less likely that the sky is the limit when it comes to one's army design.  

It's important to remember that even the smallest legions have been increased to well over 50,000 marines (According to ADB, even the Thousand Sons will be enlarged to well beyond their original listing of 10,000).  This leaves room within each legion for dozens, if not hundreds of unique formations, quirks of personality and organization, and personal touches.  With very few exceptions, any possible character trait or organizational structure can be found among any of the legions.  Sure, the World Eaters were known for their close-combat berserkers, but they still had reconnaissance squads and heavy artillery when the need called for them.  Or the Ultramarines might have a single company among hundreds that was pushed a just little too far and took up the use of destroyer squads to rid themselves of a problematic conquest.

The legions were spread across thousands of expedition fleets and only a relatively small percentage of a legion would've actually been commanded by their primarch, let alone fought alongside him.  That leaves command of that particular element of the legion in command of someone else.  And that someone else could literally be anyone you can imagine.

Yes, legions have their specialties and stereotypes of personality.  But within each legion you have marines from Terra, you have marines who grew up alongside the primarch and you have marines who were picked up from a conquest along the way.  All three of these can have very different personalities and the distribution of each within "your" part of the legion is unique.  On top of that, depending on when during the HH timeline you want to set your legion can have a massive impact on it.  A Salamanders company from before Vulkan was discovered is a completely different beast from what the legion was made into after he was discovered.  An Emperor's Children army set at the height of the great crusade would feel significantly different from one set several years after Istvaan.

 

And then if you REALLY want to go crazy, you can even create the missing legions!  And it's perfectly alright!  This is the time period when they actually existed!

 

I guess all I'm saying is the legions are much larger and much more nuanced than I feel you're giving them credit for.

E.G.J. Battle-Brother

E.G.J.

Posted
Posted

It's important to remember that even the smallest legions have been increased to well over 50,000 marines (According to ADB, even the Thousand Sons will be enlarged to well beyond their original listing of 10,000).  This leaves room within each legion for dozens, if not hundreds of unique formations, quirks of personality and organization, and personal touches.  With very few exceptions, any possible character trait or organizational structure can be found among any of the legions.  Sure, the World Eaters were known for their close-combat berserkers, but they still had reconnaissance squads and heavy artillery when the need called for them.  Or the Ultramarines might have a single company among hundreds that was pushed a just little too far and took up the use of destroyer squads to rid themselves of a problematic conquest.

  

The legions were spread across thousands of expedition fleets and only a relatively small percentage of a legion would've actually been commanded by their primarch, let alone fought alongside him.  That leaves command of that particular element of the legion in command of someone else.  And that someone else could literally be anyone you can imagine.

Yes, legions have their specialties and stereotypes of personality.  But within each legion you have marines from Terra, you have marines who grew up alongside the primarch and you have marines who were picked up from a conquest along the way.  All three of these can have very different personalities and the distribution of each within "your" part of the legion is unique.  On top of that, depending on when during the HH timeline you want to set your legion can have a massive impact on it.  A Salamanders company from before Vulkan was discovered is a completely different beast from what the legion was made into after he was discovered.  An Emperor's Children army set at the height of the great crusade would feel significantly different from one set several years after Istvaan.

 

And then if you REALLY want to go crazy, you can even create the missing legions!  And it's perfectly alright!  This is the time period when they actually existed!

 

I guess all I'm saying is the legions are much larger and much more nuanced than I feel you're giving them credit for.

 

 

Oh I most definitely agree with you concerning numbers and nuance of the legions.  What I'm getting at is the fluff policing that some hobbyists impose on others.  Even in 40k, which is technically really open to doing whatever you want you occasionally get people yelling their beaks off about what somebody can and cannot do.  So I was more asking from that perspective.  Not what one can do, but how open people are to others getting creative.  I.e. how open-minded is the community that favors 30k over 40k?  I guess one can say it's not theoretically what is possible, but rather what is practically possible.  I don't know if that makes sense really, but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm trying to say.

KBA Veteran

KBA

Posted
Posted

E.G.J, anyone in the Heresy should feel free to use whatever they want in the Legion list up to whatever legal numbers should they so choose. And no matter the legion, it will remain fluffy IMO. The Legions aren't chapters of a thousand men. They're huge armies unto themselves, and while, individually, they may specialize in an area of warfare, they all still retain numbers of their minority aspects in greater quantity than what you'd field on the table top.

 

So an Iron Hands army entirely made up of assault troops would still be fluffy, and quite cool in a different sense to see.

Hyaenidae Venerable Brother

Hyaenidae

Posted
Posted

On the B&C, basically what the fine fellows above me mentioned. 99 times out of 100, you'll get nothing but support and constructive criticism here.

 

The better question is, what's you local gaming community like, and how open are they to the concept of 30k? Having a few like-minded individuals playing and painting with you can make it even more fun.

 

Or, if you're in the buttcrack of Nowhere like myself, how motivated can you keep yourself through making your own fluff, conversions, etc?

Adra'Melek Veteran

Adra'Melek

Posted
Posted
Personally I'm doing a legion based on an alternative universe, so effectively a DIY Legion (see link in sig). I only play friendly game against my brother generally and he has no problem with it. It effectively allows me to do whatever I want. I'm also planning on doing kill team sized forces for all/most of the legions.

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