Deathwatch or Grey Knights

[Relic of Dorn]

So the Sigillite recruits Garro and Half-heard to become part of the ____.  No body can say for sure because Malcador is a cryptic old fart and there is nothing new on the Garro series.  So what do we know so far?
 
(If my references are off, please feel free to correct me.)
 
Garro is the "Grey Knight", who carries Malcadors sigil of the =][=.  At least that is what I got from

Oath of Moment

.
He is the Knight Errant for Malcador, on mission to recruit individual that have an inquisitoral nature. - Last chapter of

Flight of the Eisenstein

.
All of the Grey Knights are in some fashion a Psyker, not all of Garro's crew are Psykers.  In fact the only 1 for sure I can think of is 

Rubio (Oath of Moment)

,  and another possible is the Imperial Fist Librarian from

Burden of Duty

 

Members of Garros group are formed from all pre-exsisting chapters (both loyal and traitor).

 

Now lets skip forward in time a little bit.  Both the Deathwatch and the Grey Knight technically fall under the Inquisition, one Malleus and one Xenos.

Grey Knights are raise the same as any other Space Marine chapter, although they are pickier about who they allow in. (i.e. Psykers)

Deathwatch is comprised of all Loyal Space Marines from all chapters.
 

Anyone have any thoughts or predictions on where the Garro storyline is going?

 

-RoD-

[RuggedJam]

garro is gonna be a grandmaster grey knight but i feel loken is more suited to deathwatch if he still lives

[Relic of Dorn]

So are you thinking that the 8 the Garro collect splits between pskyer and non psyker to form each?

[Perrin]

I don't think the Deathwatch was formed from the Heresy. I can't find any dates but Lexicanum says that it was formed after the Apocryphon Conclave of Orphite IV, which was an Inquisitorial Conclave of Ordo Xenos Inquisitor Lords. They didn't have the separate Ordos till way after the Heresy, and I'm not sure they'd have had Inquisitor Lords either, as the organisation was too small.

 

Also, xenos weren't a threat until way after the Heresy, at least in comparison to Horus' army. Why waste these special individuals when their talents would be better suited fighting the gravest threat, aka Chaos.

 

The Lexicanum article also starts with "Centuries ago..." and the only known battle dates given are M41. I'd guess they were formed just after contact with the Tyranids/Tau/Necrons.

[Relic of Dorn]

Well even looking at the latest Matt Ward version of the Grey Knights, non of their noted battles where listed until well after the heresy as well...

[Perrin]

Yeah, but we know the Grey Knights have been around since the Scouring, numerous sources say so. I'm not an encyclopaedia but the only references to the Deathwatch that I've read or heard of are modern, M40-41. 

[Relic of Dorn]

True, I don't think GW even knows where they came from

[Balthamal]

Given that the Inquisition first arose in power directly after the Heresy, and that it's been established that the Grey Knights were founded at this time as well, it makes sense for the Deathwatch to have their origins too.

 

We know that from the Garro series, that there's a fairly large group of marines available but given that there can be only 8 Grand Masters of the GKs and it seems that a decision was made to have them all be psychic so the leftovers wouldn't be suitable for anything other than training etc.

 

Since the GKs were adopted as the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that the Ordo Xenos decided they needed one too. Hence the birth of the Deathwatch

 

I think it interesting that the GKs went for a bright colour and the Deathwatch a dark

[Perrin]

Given that the Inquisition first arose in power directly after the Heresy, and that it's been established that the Grey Knights were founded at this time as well, it makes sense for the Deathwatch to have their origins too.

 

We know that from the Garro series, that there's a fairly large group of marines available but given that there can be only 8 Grand Masters of the GKs and it seems that a decision was made to have them all be psychic so the leftovers wouldn't be suitable for anything other than training etc.

 

Since the GKs were adopted as the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that the Ordo Xenos decided they needed one too. Hence the birth of the Deathwatch

 

I think it interesting that the GKs went for a bright colour and the Deathwatch a dark

 

Not really. The Inquisition was a small organisation for at least a while after the HH and throughout the Scouring, and didn't even split into separate Ordos for a long time. The threat from xenos in comparison to the threat from traitors and chaos was miniscule. I doubt that for the first few centuries there were any Inquisitors devoted to wiping out the xenos at all, because with the aftermath of the Heresy there was simply too much to do.

 

The Orks and Eldar had been mostly destroyed during the Great Crusade, the Dark Eldar have never been a real threat to the Imperium, and the real xenos threats won't emerge for another ~10,000 years, there really wasn't much point for a dedicated anti-xenos space marine force, especially considering the resources it would take.

[Relic of Dorn]

I can't remember if I actually read it or not, but I think that I read that once the Heresy turned around and headed for Terra, that the xenos forces started moving in to the areas where Horus' army pulled out of. 

 

Like I said I can't remember if I read it or just fabricated my own story arc...

 

But if that was the case then as soon as the loyal forces turned the traitor legions back and started fighting back then they would have eventually seen the grower xenos threat coming up from behind the dwindling chaos threat. 

[Balthamal]

 

Given that the Inquisition first arose in power directly after the Heresy, and that it's been established that the Grey Knights were founded at this time as well, it makes sense for the Deathwatch to have their origins too.

 

We know that from the Garro series, that there's a fairly large group of marines available but given that there can be only 8 Grand Masters of the GKs and it seems that a decision was made to have them all be psychic so the leftovers wouldn't be suitable for anything other than training etc.

 

Since the GKs were adopted as the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that the Ordo Xenos decided they needed one too. Hence the birth of the Deathwatch

 

I think it interesting that the GKs went for a bright colour and the Deathwatch a dark

 

Not really. The Inquisition was a small organisation for at least a while after the HH and throughout the Scouring, and didn't even split into separate Ordos for a long time. The threat from xenos in comparison to the threat from traitors and chaos was miniscule. I doubt that for the first few centuries there were any Inquisitors devoted to wiping out the xenos at all, because with the aftermath of the Heresy there was simply too much to do.

 

The Orks and Eldar had been mostly destroyed during the Great Crusade, the Dark Eldar have never been a real threat to the Imperium, and the real xenos threats won't emerge for another ~10,000 years, there really wasn't much point for a dedicated anti-xenos space marine force, especially considering the resources it would take.

 

Are there any sources for that? Not being argumentative, genuinely curious to read it 

[Perrin]

Only Pandorax. Very minor spoilers below.

 

 

One of the characters is a Scouring-era GK. He doesn't know what the Ordo Malleus is and that when he was around the Inquisition numbered about 150 people

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: The rest is theory, opinion and common knowledge. The Orks and Eldar not being a large threat anymore is mentioned in various HH books, the Dark Eldar not being a threat is opinion, etc.

[Balthamal]

Very interesting thank you

[Relic of Dorn]

Indeed.  So perhaps the Grey Knights were the original models and then once the Ordos were split the Deathwatch came around?

[Jareddm]

The Lexicanum article also starts with "Centuries ago..." and the only known battle dates given are M41. I'd guess they were formed just after contact with the Tyranids/Tau/Necrons.

I wouldn't consider that a fair argument, as I could refer to an event that happened in the year 500 BC and say it occured "hundreds of years ago" without it being incorrect in any way.

 

As for their origins, the Deathwatch timeline has Watch Fortress Erioch operating as far back as 267.M35, when the first Deathwatch death was recorded, so they've certainly been around for the better part of the history of the Imperium.

[Perrin]

 

The Lexicanum article also starts with "Centuries ago..." and the only known battle dates given are M41. I'd guess they were formed just after contact with the Tyranids/Tau/Necrons.

I wouldn't consider that a fair argument, as I could refer to an event that happened in the year 500 BC and say it occured "hundreds of years ago" without it being incorrect in any way.

 

As for their origins, the Deathwatch timeline has Watch Fortress Erioch operating as far back as 267.M35, when the first Deathwatch death was recorded, so they've certainly been around for the better part of the history of the Imperium.

 

Except that no one would refer to an event that happened 10,000 years ago as "centuries ago".

 

But regardless, my mistake. Considering the kind of operations that Deathwatch operatives deal with though I think it would be fair to say that they were founded around M35, as I doubt they would have gone long without a single death.

 

But that's still 4000-5000 years after the Heresy.

[Jareddm]

 

Except that no one would refer to an event that happened 10,000 years ago as "centuries ago".

 

But regardless, my mistake. Considering the kind of operations that Deathwatch operatives deal with though I think it would be fair to say that they were founded around M35, as I doubt they would have gone long without a single death.

 

But that's still 4000-5000 years after the Heresy.

I agree, 10,000 is pushing it. But I don't think one decimal place removed is too unusual.

 

Also, I should've been clearer. that's not the first death in the Deathwatch. That's the earliest recorded death at one particular Watch Fortress, of which we have no idea if there were older records or not.

 

I also never said that I felt the Deathwatch was founded right after the Heresy, alongside the Grey Knights. On the contrary, I'm in agreement that the Ordo Xenos would've had to have been firmly established first before the Conclave of Orphite IV could've occured. To me, this sets them long after the Scouring, but still between 6,000 to 8,000 years old.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Except that no one would refer to an event that happened 10,000 years ago as "centuries ago".

 

But regardless, my mistake. Considering the kind of operations that Deathwatch operatives deal with though I think it would be fair to say that they were founded around M35, as I doubt they would have gone long without a single death.

 

But that's still 4000-5000 years after the Heresy.

I agree, 10,000 is pushing it. But I don't think one decimal place removed is too unusual.

 

Also, I should've been clearer. that's not the first death in the Deathwatch. That's the earliest recorded death at one particular Watch Fortress, of which we have no idea if there were older records or not.

 

I also never said that I felt the Deathwatch was founded right after the Heresy, alongside the Grey Knights. On the contrary, I'm in agreement that the Ordo Xenos would've had to have been firmly established first before the Conclave of Orphite IV could've occured. To me, this sets them long after the Scouring, but still between 6,000 to 8,000 years old.

But we should also remember that one of the hallmarks of the 40K Imperium isn't that it doesn't always remember. The only organization that does not "forget" is the Mechanicus, but even it will sequester information.

[Perrin]

Except that no one would refer to an event that happened 10,000 years ago as "centuries ago".

But regardless, my mistake. Considering the kind of operations that Deathwatch operatives deal with though I think it would be fair to say that they were founded around M35, as I doubt they would have gone long without a single death.

But that's still 4000-5000 years after the Heresy.

I agree, 10,000 is pushing it. But I don't think one decimal place removed is too unusual.

Also, I should've been clearer. that's not the first death in the Deathwatch. That's the earliest recorded death at one particular Watch Fortress, of which we have no idea if there were older records or not.

I also never said that I felt the Deathwatch was founded right after the Heresy, alongside the Grey Knights. On the contrary, I'm in agreement that the Ordo Xenos would've had to have been firmly established first before the Conclave of Orphite IV could've occured. To me, this sets them long after the Scouring, but still between 6,000 to 8,000 years old.

My mistake again, I thought you meant the whole Deathwatch

My reply was to the whole thread, not directed at you. My apologies if I came across as blunt

[Adra'Melek]

I think the answer is "We don't know". They'll probably put a cool twist in somewhere because twists are cool.

[RuggedJam]

but the biologist order was around during/before the heresy and they studied xenos. so it wouldn't be a unfair assumption that they had there own guards and soldiers who captured them maybe not sm not yet any way but there was certainly something that went looking for xenos

[Jareddm]

I'm pretty sure that's a branch of the Mechanicum, which puts it in a whole seperate category.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm pretty sure that's a branch of the Mechanicum, which puts it in a whole seperate category.

 

It would make sense, however, even if it wasn't part of the Mechanicum, that they'd work with members of Magos Biologis. 

[Relic of Dorn]

but the biologist order was around during/before the heresy and they studied xenos. so it wouldn't be a unfair assumption that they had there own guards and soldiers who captured them maybe not sm not yet any way but there was certainly something that went looking for xenos

 

In complete agreement.  Deathwatch is SM and basically are to the Ordo Xenos as the Grey Knights are to the Ordo Malleus, correct?  But didn't every "department" of the Imperium have it's own special security?  So if it was specially trained guardsmen pre/direct post heresy timeframe, they could have just upgraded their security from acquisition to extermination after the xenos threat came back into the fold. 

[helterskelter]

i hold in my bag a copy of vengeful spirit i will spoiler a list of all listed knights errant in the dramatis personnae if so desired :)