Salamanders, 2000 points

[brojob]

I've been trying to come up with a Salamanders list, and here's what I have so far. I think I may drop the basilisks and add an executioner predator or a vindicator and a consul. Feedback would be greatly appreciated; 30K lists seem more difficult to make, IMO. 

rite of war 
covenant of fire 

HQ 
praetor with MC paragon, inferno pistol, iron halo, mantle, digital lasers, shield 205 

elites 
8 firedrakes with 4 hammers and shields, 1 heavy flamer, 3 combis and 4 power swords 480 


troops 
tactical squad with MC combi and rhino with heavy flamer 180 

tactical squad with MC combi and rhino with heavy flamer 180 

support squad with flamers and rhino with heavy flamer210 


heavy support 
artillery with two basilisks 280 

spartan 295 

sicaran with lascannon sponsons 175 

[Sanct]

Very much a rock list.  Not easy to crack (3++ with 2 wounds? ick) though the spartan could do with armoured ceramite in case of lucky melta.

 

Check your praetor and tactical squads point costs - they look low

[brojob]

Will do. How do you feel about using a vindicator or predator executioner and a consul in place of the basilisks? I'm not sure if I should drop the basilisks for favor of a fast advancing list, or keep them and hold back with my infantry for a couple of turns while the artillery hammers away. If I were to scale up to 2500, do you think a breacher squad would work well with the list? They seem very fluffy to me. 

[coloroutofspace]

I'm assuming the Praetor goes with Firedrakes in a Spartan? If so it's a 1000 points out of 2000 right there. Tbh, I faced such a list recently, but with Vulkan instead of a Praetor - the Spartan went down on turn 1 being such an obvious target, which left Vulkan and retinue foot slogging and out in the open and not much of a threat, which gave me plenty of time to get rid of 10-man Tactical/Support/Heavy squads. That said I believe Firedrakes are pretty capable on their own, without the Praetor, whom I'd rather attach to a different squad. Perhaps 2 Spartans/Land Raiders, one with Firedrakes, the other one with the Praetor + Despoilers?

 

Also, you're not using the RoW to it's best benefit - Move Through Cover. I'd rather drop the Rhinos and add bodies.

 

No AA and not enough anti-tank in my opinion. You have the Spartan (again, obvious target and it will go down quickly) and a Sicarian. Basilsks are fine, but in a list like this I'd rather go with Medusas or a Vindicator plus a few Rapier Destroyers.

 

Go big tactical squads instead of Breachers, seriously. Heresy you say? Nevermind which Legion you play, consider the amount of of shots a Tactical squad brings with Fury of the Legion? What's the best way to get rid of an enemy Terminator squad? It's not Plasma, not Medusas nor any dedicated CC units. It's that 80 bolter shots at half range from a 20-man Tactical squad.

[brojob]

I can't remember; doesn't the sicaran have skyfire or something? And yes, the praetor, firedrakes, and spartan are a pretty huge target. I don't like putting that many points in a unit, but if I'm going to take firedrakes, a spartan makes sense. Taking an additional spartan/landraider and tooling a unit for that to add the praetor would just be a load more points. How do you feel about the support squad? Should that go on foot as well? IMO, covenant of fire could work well with vehicles. Move through cover benefits them as well and they get a 5++. Still, I shouldn't count on a 1/3 chance to save and this is troop/MC/flyerhammer, after all. 

[infyrana]

When i first saw your list and saw how few troops you had, I thought it was a 40k list lol.  If you are using the basilisks with barrage weapons, surely you would want to add a few Nuncio-Vox's to your tacticals?

 

The single sicaran, even if it can take out air, is a single point of target, it'll die quick enough.

 

How many troops do you have in your support squad?

 

Remember you can always temporarily reduce the cost of your praetor and firedrakes (reduce models/gear) in order to play around with your list and up your tacticals.

 

Edit, personally I love the idea of breacher siege squads, but they are expensive and will force you to rethink your list accordingly.

[brojob]

Ha yes I am in the habit of 40K list making, and I was never good at making lists anyway. What specific changes would you make to the list? How would you revamp the troops and heavy support choices? I will probably drop the basilisks. What would you recommend replacing them with? And I have 10 models in the support squad. I figured I would have fun with it. 

[brojob]

Here is a revised list. I am not sure if I should keep the Spartan or use a Storm Eagle in its stead. It's not at 2000 points because I'm not sure how to round it out. 

 

rite of war

covenant of fire

 

HQ

praetor with MC paragon, inferno pistol, mantle, digital lasers, shield, iron halo

215

 

 

elites

firedrakes 5 with 2 DS/TH, 3 swords, 2 combis, 1 heavy flamer

315

 

 

dedicated transport for firedrakes

spartan

295

 

 

troops

tactical squad 20 with MC combi

265

 

 

tactical squad 20 with MC combi

265

 

 

support squad 5 with rhino with heavy flamer

150

 

 

support squad 5 with rhino with heavy flamer

150

 

 

heavy support

sicaran with lascannon sponsons

175

 

sicaran with lascannon sponsons

175

 

 

2005

[infyrana]

I like it better than the other list, even though it lacks any big guns apart from the spartan and single sicaran.

 

I like your tacticals, but where's your meltabombs and vexilla's ?  More tank killing options and read up on the Vexilla versus your lack of ATSKNF in 30k.

 

For one of your flamer support squads, you could, if you chose to, look at future options for changing them to - Apothecaries (for both tacticals), Rapier Las Destroyers, Contempter etc.  To do this if you need more points, just drop the tacticals to 15-18 troops instead of the 20.  Or you could use the points needed to make up 2k and get one or two of these options etc.

 

My words are theoretical in 30k though, having not had a game yet, so take it with just a big handful of salt ! :)

[brojob]

The leadership reroll for Salamanders may make a vexilla unnecessary, but I will read up on them to make sure. Meltabombs are a good idea. I was trying to fit apothecaries into the list, but as it is now, I need more big guns. I suppose I could drop a few tacticals to make room for them. My biggest problem is settling on heavy support. A spartan has a lot of nice anti-armor power, and the sicaran is nice as well (By the way, are sicarans considered cheesy? I liked the look of them when I first saw them and never really paid much attention to discussion about them.), but I would like some more heavy firepower that matches the Salamanders well. Maybe a predator or a vidicator if I drop a support squad? I am not sure. A contemptor would be fun, but I would want to run one with a multi-melta for fluff and I am concerned that it won't help much with the 24 inch range. Right now, I think heavy fire power is the key to making this a decent list. 

Again, thanks to everyone for their feedback. 

[Russ Brother 92]

In truth there really isn't a cheesy unit - it's all be tested against other 30k stuff equally...

 

I've so far not had the chance to play a proper 30k match as I'm the only one in my club with a heresy force, however I've found my anti-air does okay (considering it's only 1 contemptor mortis) and tanks really don't scare an all terminator army - however movement is the big problem and it's something your sallies can get around with the MTC rules - as other said, take advantage of that and go for big squads to push up the flank - perhaps take a medusa with phosphex and some nuncio-vox's and hammer them as your footsloggers run up the wings.

[brojob]

Why medusas and not basilisks? Medusas are far more powerful and a 36 inch range isn't bad, but it still isn't too hard to outrange. I forgot, can a barrage unit move and shoot in the same turn? It seems to me that basilisks would just be safer if I camp them behind terrain and take nuncio-voxes on my tactics for LOS. 

[infyrana]

Check out the posts by kitwulfen.  He has done a lot of very good work discussing with calculations on the various options of firepower.  If you are unsure and find numbers help you, his posts are an excellent place to go looking.  He has compared the Sicaran with the Contemptor Mortis pattern and the triple Predator platoons.  You can make good cases for each of them.

 

Personally, I have a second Sicaran on the table waiting for a wash and to be built.  I also have a second mortis contemptor needing to be built (have one of each built already).  They are personal choices.  I'm in need of a Spartan, and looking very tempted towards the Rapiers and Medusa's for variety.  Money is a factor for me, but the Sicaran's good looks just ripped that to shreds and I made a two-of exception.

 

If I were you, grab a copy of the book, pen and paper, write down the options for each type of unit (platoon of 3x predators, squadron of 3, or 2x2 sqdns of rapier laser destoyer array batteries, contemptor mortis with TLLC, medusas, or basilisks, or even phobos land raiders), jot down how many you can get for the points you have, work out how much money they are to purchase, work out how fluffy they are for your army list / ideas, work out each of their overall effective firepower per turn they can dish out, and finally, jot down the pro's and con's as you see it.  You will eventually make your own decision - and one you will be happy with.  If you are still in doubt - read some battle reports with your choice in and see how they did.

 

Edit: Medusa - Str 10 + AP2 ? mmm

[brojob]

I currently do not have the points for a predator platoon and I think they won't afford me the anti-armor I need. I'm somewhat cautious about a Sicaran for fluff purposes because of its speed, but it also has an awesome amount of firepower which is a hallmark of the Sallies. I will check out his posts and try to reach a decision. This is why I hate list building. 

 

Medusas have great S and AP, but the range puts me off. 

 

edit: A second Sicaran brings me right to 2005. It may not be as inspired of a choice for Salamanders as the vindicator or plasma predators / contemptors, but it fits my list rather well, IMO. A total of 8 lascannon shots (I'm counting the Spartan as well) and 12 rending autocannon shots seems rather powerful to me. 

[infyrana]

You have a pm, some B&C links that might provide interesting reading for you.

[coloroutofspace]

I had to re-read the rules for Salamanders. The second list looks better, but instead of adding a second Sicarian, I'd take a Contemptor Mortis. You want those dual TL lascannons for AA and anti-tank, and the model is sooo cool :) Or go with dual MC Multimeltas - the range is the same as Kheres, you get the twin-linked upgrade and it fits Salamanders perfectly. With the limited range it'll be important to find a good spot on the battlefield to position it, but if done correctly, it's a trap for zooming flyers or at least you create a no-fly zone 48" in diameter.

[brojob]

I've always wondered: can the Mortis attack in close combat? Does it just use its normal S?

Meltas sound fun, but I'm worried my long range anti-armor will be targeted early in the game and by the time the MM Mortis closes in, the enemy's anti-armor firepower will be able to focus on it. I would love to get a Contemptor in the list, I am just not entirely sure how. I would definitely want to magnetize the arms. 

[coloroutofspace]

Yes, it can and it uses it's normal S.

I admit the TLLC Contemptor is better, just more expensive. But there's always a lot of 'what ifs'. For example, last time I played, I destroyed a Spartan on turn 1 with one shot from the Shadowsword, never mind it was parked in cover and only partially visible - D-Weapon does that. But how many D-Weapons will your Salamanders face? On the other hand, what good would that D-weapon be if I faced an all-infantry force? A lot of what ifs.

There are some bad choices for a HH list (like Whirlwinds or Rotor guns :) ) but the Mortis is one of the better ones.

[Moonstalker]

Don't check out my posts.  They're long, rambling, and full of bias and opinion.

 

 

If you take a Sicaran, swap the hull heavy bolter for a hull heavy flamer.  The heavy bolter is pretty pointless for most of your shooting, and it's nice and roasty (as opposed to fluffy?) to have a S6 heavy flamer on there instead.  As a fast vehicle, it's also one of the few things in the list that can make good use of it.  This won't cost any points, but I don't think the Sicaran kit comes with a heavy flamer bit.  Shouldn't be hard to find one to swap in.

 

As for anti-air, two Sicarans is actually not so bad for it.  Even without skyfire/interceptor, they just throw so many shots (many of them ignoring Jink!) that they can handle flyers.  The Spartan can also have a go at shooting planes down - 4 TL lascannon shots will do that.  You're likely to get at least one hit, anyway.  The trouble is that the lack of interceptor will allow enemy flyers a turn to engage you unhindered.

 

If anything, I think you are too heavy on troops.  You have five scoring units between your four troops and fire drake squad.  I think you might be better off dropping the second support squad and using the points saved for some apothecaries for your tacticals or for more firepower.  Squads are cheaper, per model, as they get larger, so you could just save points by simply bringing a single 10 man support squad instead of 2 5 mans.  Nevermind the points you save by not buying two Rhinos.  Normally I wouldn't recommend it, but you're sticking with flamers on these guys, so the squad stays relatively cheap.  And cheap is good.

 

Earthshaker vs Medusa, I think the Medusa wins for two reasons: Strength and AP.  With AP2, it becomes an effective anti-terminator weapon, and with Strength 10 it is an effective anti-tank gun.  The shorter range is a non-issue.  Properly deployed the Medusa can threaten an entire 6ft by 4ft board if you really need it to.  Just being able to threaten anything out of the enemy's deployment zone is good enough - if they want objectives, they're gonna have to deal with the Medusa.  As was mentioned above, if you're going to bring an artillery element see if you can find points for some nuncio voxii.

 

You can trade some marines for apothecaries if you want.  15 marines and 1 apothecary vs 20 marines, 4 bodies for FNP for the entire squad.

 

I would look at cheapening up your Praetor a little bit.  As Salamanders, you're in the best position to make an absolute killer Praetor, being the only Legion that can give him EW and one of only two that can give him a 2+/3++ save.  So, I think it's okay to spend more than you might on a Praetor in any other Legion but 215 points might be a little much.  I would drop the Inferno Pistol, or the Digital Lasers, or both.

 

The single D6 reroll for Salamanders Ld tests is probably good enough.  You'll have to playtest and see how it is for you.  I'm paranoid about taking a handful of casualties and breaking off the table edge with a big, expensive squad, so I always recommend Vexillas for armies without some kind of Ld reroll in their special rules (like Salamanders or Iron Hands).  In my playtesting, I've actually had a couple instances where the Vexilla reroll saved my bacon, so I will continue to field them.  It just comes down to whether those points are worth it to you for rerolling two dice instead of rerolling one.  These are the rolls where you will fail Ld on Ld9:

 

5-5

6-4

6-5

6-6

 

For the worst case scenario, the 6-6, you reroll one die and have a 50% chance that it will come up as a pass instead.  For 6-5 and 5-5, one reroll will give you a ~66% chance of pass.  For 6-4, a single reroll will give you a ~83% chance of pass.  That's assuming you don't derp and decide to reroll the lower die result instead of rerolling the 6.  So, your for-free option will give you, at worst, a 50% chance of not-failing a failed Ld test.

[brojob]

Thanks for the post. I enjoyed reading your battle reports and I'm glad you brought your experience to the already helpful advice of the previous posters. One thing I've wondered about is if the vexilla allows me to reroll my LD and if I fail again I can reroll one of the die for my Salamanders rule, essentially giving me 3 chances to pass a LD roll. I considered a 10 man squad of flamers, but I was concerned that my poor strategy would have them end up somewhere where they can't do any damage. 2 squads gives me a bit more leeway. Still, it is expensive. I think I am finally happy with my heavy support (lots of anti-armor and a decent amount of anti-infantry). I didn't give much thought to heavy flamers on the sicarans, but since they're fast that wouldn't be a bad idea. I will have to playtest the Firedrakes. I don't want to go too heavy on the shields and hammers so I can have more I4 attacks, but I still want good protection. I will probably drop the digital lasers. With the 5 man squad of Firedrakes, the Praetor shouldn't need to worry about rerolling a couple of attacks. If I drop anything, it will probably be 5 tacticals from each squad for apothecaries and/or a support squad for a consul (points permitting, I can't remember the base cost of a centurion; I think a librarian, master of signal, or primus medicae would be good and while a chaplain would be fluffy, I don't think it would do much good outside of the Firedrakes). 

[Moonstalker]

Per the BRB, you may only ever reroll any die a single time.  You can't reroll an attack twice for twin-link and prescience, and you can't reroll with your Vexilla and your Legiones Astartes rules.  Sorry. =p

 

I would not worry too much about getting in I4 attacks with your firedrakes.  Those powerswords are going to be really pretty useless.  6 attacks, 9 on the charge.  Since you're in a Spartan we'll figure you get the charge.  So 2/3 will hit, so 6 hits, and then half will wound.  3 wounds.  If you fight terminators or the enemy throws those attacks onto an AA sergeant, you've done almost literally nothing with them.  An AA sergeant in a tac squad with an apothecary to back him up will laugh those attacks off.  Even if it's just a basic 20 man tac squad without anything fancy like that, you just killed 3 marines out of 20.  Those tactical marines will get their attacks off anyway, since they're going simul with you.  It gets even worse when you get further into the combat and don't have the charge bonus.  If you are fighting terminators like you want to, power swords are no better than hitting with your bare fists for Marines.

 

With hammers, you'd have 9 hammer attacks, 6 hits, and then 5 wounds.  Now, you are double-toughing and you are AP2.  So terminators must now rely on their Invul, AA sergeants don't snicker at you, and Apothecaries fall to their knees and cry wet, salty tears into the puddles of blood and gore that were once their brother marines.  If you can't find the points for the Thunderhammers then at least make the swords into axes so you can fight other terminators.

 

Centurions are cheap.  Primus Medicae or Chaplain are probably your best choices here.  I don't think the Master of Signal, as good as he is, really synergizes with your list.  The Medicae would give your expensive 2-wound terminators even more staying power, while the Chaplain would give them fearless and would let them reroll their attacks on the charge.  I don't think you need to worry about Fearless for this squad quite as much as for others, but it is good to keep in mind that without ATSKNF it is entirely possible that you will lose combat, break, and be overrun.  Don't underestimate the chaplain - if you send one of your tactical blobs forward, they might end up dropping the charge on another tactical blob.  With a chaplain attached, that's 20 marines with 40 rerolling attacks and fearless to keep them in the fight.  I would not use the Medicae in your Tactical squads, they can make due with a standard Apothecary.  The main benefits to the Medicae are being able to give FNP to terminator squads or having an Apothecary with a cheap HQ tax.  Your HQ is already fulfilled.  Sacred Trust is useless most of the time.

 

Librarians are expensive and only Ld9.  I'm pretty iffy on them.

[brojob]

Yeah I guess I may as well rock hammers and shields. 2 W termies will be hard to knock out, especially with shields. I should be able to last until I 1. My Praetor can get in some nice base I attacks anyway. A primus medicae and a chaplain are both equally tempting to me. Do you, or anyone else in this thread, think FW will make minis for the other consuls? 

[infyrana]

Who knows, they've only just released Khârn and the command figures for MkII and MkIII.  The apoths and MkIV command models have been out a little while.  If we do see them, it will not be that soon I don't believe.

 

If you want to make a medicae terminator, just magnetise the arms and use the GK or DA apothecary arm.  They do a Master of Signals and a basic Champion.  There are already lots of librarians and chaplains out there, Sevrin Loth being the main example that actually does fit the heresy armour era.

 

For my Moritat consul, I will just be using a Reaver squad model.

[brojob]

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1050246

I think certain parts of this guy's armor looks like Heresy Era armor. Notably, the upper part of his torso reminds me of the upper part of iron armor. I have a ridiculous amount of minis to paint, though, so I'm sure that FW will release the minis relevant to my list by the time I am ready to buy my Salamanders.