The_son_of_Dorn Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Clear victor in the combat or was a fair fight kinda thing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Was a draw, Khan was all over Mortarion but he just soaked up the damage then Khan lost focus, think Mortarion told him Ferrus was dead and then Mortarion was all over Khan, eventually Mortarion got a message saying Khan's fleet had opened up on their fleet and he withdrew. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Finished one read through...couple of points to make: Thought the setting of this is just after Scars and originally that also in time with Unremembered Empire but a couple of references to Calth has thrown me a bit, based on Malcador's conversations with Russ and then the Emperor. Got a view that Mortarion doesn't like the concept of making deals with daemons, prefers to control them....that he distinguishes between someone saying words according to a "spell" and someone opening up to the warp....sorcery vs psykery type thing. Will give it another read in the next couple of days though think it has to be considered the start of the last act of the HH due to Horus's outlook at the end Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666011 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Cheers Guys, Nice to read, glad Mort kept his rep as a punishment sponge. Hats of to Khârn to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Cheers Guys, Nice to read, glad Mort kept his rep as a punishment sponge. Hats of to Khârn to. It was a good read, the author playing up both of their strengths and how they complemented each other. The Khan, mercurial and fluid, a whirlwind of attacks impossible to hold at bay. The Reaper, stolid and implacable, a mountain to weather any storm no matter how fierce. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Believe it or not, I'm liking the fact that two years into the Heresy Horus hasn't grown a mustache to twirl yet. McNeill's grasp of arcane subjects is really self evident, and it makes this feel more 'real' to me. I haven't finished the book yet, but so far I am actually very impressed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Liking the Sons of Horus, and the portrayal of Horus a great deal. The rest, far less so far. It feels like it would have been a better book if it was more focused, like Mechanicum or Thousand Sons but I think I'm only half way through. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666024 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 only problem with the hh books is it leaves out the primarchs to much, allot needs to be fleshed out. End of the day though they are just mortals who will find their end. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Well....some of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Well....some of them. Not really. They all find an end to the mortal coil. Some through death, some through more....... unnatural means. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 A philosophical question I suppose, but I doubt any of the ascended Primarchs see it as an end. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 A philosophical question I suppose, but I doubt any of the ascended Primarchs see it as an end. :p I doubt any of their previously mortal incarnations would look upon their future selves as a continuation or extension of their lives as they currently view it either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I'm curious about the pronunciation on 'Luperci.'I've always pronounced 'Lupercal' as "Lew-per-kal' rather than 'Lew-per-sal.'But is it 'Lew-per-kai' or 'Lew-per-sigh?' Depending on how close imperial gothic is to Latin... It should be loop-er-kee, or loo-per-kee. C in Latin is never soft, and given how much imp goth mirrors Latin, that's how it ought to go. It's a made up language, in a made up setting, though, so imagine it however you want "Luperci" is a real word, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Personally I pronounced it Lup-er-ki. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 A philosophical question I suppose, but I doubt any of the ascended Primarchs see it as an end. I doubt any of their previously mortal incarnations would look upon their future selves as a continuation or extension of their lives as they currently view it either. However it is a continuation. They retain their memories, their sense of self to a degree. Fulgrim is a good example of this in Vengeful Spirit. He's clearly at Daemon Prince levels, and still has his connection to the past. 10,000 years is a long time granted, but thats like saying that your adult self is not a continuation of your infant self. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Is a butterfly a caterpillar? Is a caterpillar a butterfly? The answer is both yes and no. They are the exact same organism. If it lives a full life, it will be both. But we do not refer caterpillars as butterflies because they are two different states of existence for the creature. But that actually wasn't my point. My point was that all of the Primarchs ceased being mortal. Period. Whether it be because they died or because they became "no longer mortal", they all left the mortal coil. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 So how long into the Heresy is VS? I thought it was 4 years, occurring just after UE and 2 years after Scars. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 In the early part of the book its right after Scars, as Mort's repairs are still fresh, and the Ruinstorm is also very very current. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Scars was one year after the Heresy. And if the Ruinstorm's eruption is also a recent event, this would line with Betrayer and be, again, one year after the Heresy. So while picking up where Scars, Betrayer and AE immediately left off, it would only still be one year after the Heresy started. Most likely starting into the second year. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666244 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 What about the events of UE? That's at least 3 years into the Heresy and is mentioned by the Emperor and Malcador in VS. Damn, I thought I had a handle on the HH timeline Bit disappointing to find out that we're only in the 2nd year if this is true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Lets not forget this is McNeill, his timeline adherence is suspect. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 A philosophical question I suppose, but I doubt any of the ascended Primarchs see it as an end. I doubt any of their previously mortal incarnations would look upon their future selves as a continuation or extension of their lives as they currently view it either. However it is a continuation. They retain their memories, their sense of self to a degree. Fulgrim is a good example of this in Vengeful Spirit. He's clearly at Daemon Prince levels, and still has his connection to the past. 10,000 years is a long time granted, but thats like saying that your adult self is not a continuation of your infant self. I would not liken the ascension to the transition from childhood to adulthood. At all. The comparison I was trying to make would be like if that caterpillar had no idea of its fate to become a butterfly, and would committed genocide on whatever people the person who tells him of that fate belongs to. Yes, they are the same person, and the latter is created by the actions and choices of the former. But it isn't all that cut and dried. The change is so extensive that the Primarch might as well be dead, for all difference it makes. The Primarch that is, is now an entity whose only connection with the Primarch that was is the memory of once being that former self. The Primarch that was is gone, as completely as if it did experience a death. Not like how the infant I once was is gone, because elements of that time remain an important aspect of me and who I am. Not so the Primarchs who become Daemon Princes. They didn't simply switch classifications. Everything they once were was replaced by something new and different. So yes, there are no living Primarchs. They were either slain, or ceased to exist in the process of ascending into something else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 What about the events of UE? That's at least 3 years into the Heresy and is mentioned by the Emperor and Malcador in VS. Damn, I thought I had a handle on the HH timeline Bit disappointing to find out that we're only in the 2nd year if this is true. Prince of Crows was the first to breach the three-year barrier. UE happened after Prince of Crows, as evidenced by Curze living in the bowels of the Invincible Reason. But as Scribe pointed out, this McNeill we're talking about. Chances are it is another Outcast Dead that will no doubt have a Wolf Hunt counterpart that explains the discrepancy. What events are referenced, if I may ask? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 What about the events of UE? That's at least 3 years into the Heresy and is mentioned by the Emperor and Malcador in VS. Damn, I thought I had a handle on the HH timeline Bit disappointing to find out that we're only in the 2nd year if this is true. Prince of Crows was the first to breach the three-year barrier. UE happened after Prince of Crows, as evidenced by Curze living in the bowels of the Invincible Reason. But as Scribe pointed out, this McNeill we're talking about. Chances are it is another Outcast Dead that will no doubt have a Wolf Hunt counterpart that explains the discrepancy. What events are referenced, if I may ask? Going solely on what people have posted here and on other forums, it is mentioned that Guilliman is building a new empire and the Emperor isn't surprised. I'm not sure if UE explicably states that Guilliman's plans are public knowledge, but by the end Sanguinius is crowned so it must be. I also have no idea how the Emperor/Malcador knows anything that happens within the Ruinstorm, so it could be after UE and the information leaks out through events we haven't yet seen, or they're simply that powerful, or just an off-screen "This happened because it did" moment. We also need enough time for Russ and his Wolves to be rescued by the Dark Angels contingent from the events in Scars, and to get back to Terra. This also happens off-screen as far as I know. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666287 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 28, 2014 Share Posted April 28, 2014 Cormac, I disagree vehemently, but I feel its not something either of us can prove at this point. I think back to the Daemon Prince in Wrath of Iron, who very very clearly retained a sense of history, and self, and in VS (Vengeful Spirit) Fulgrim is still Fulgrim despite his transcendence. Its not a topic I'm willing to derail the thread for however. :] As for the timeline of the book. Spoilers on the items in the books. 1. Scars has happened, concluded, and Russ is at Terra, I never read scars so am not sure on the timing of that event. 2. The Emperor is aware of Imperium Secundus. 3. The Emperor has his doubts about The Khan. 4. The Last Remembrancer has very recently happened, unless Dorn just likes to chill at the pleasant prison they have going there, and Qruze's task seems to be hanging out there as well and taking part in that interrogation. 5. The Ruinstorm is in effect and the Five Hundred Worlds are burning. 6. AE has happened as well as Betrayer, so it would seem likely UE has as well. If 6 has happened, then the DA/NL arc has happened. If all of that is true, VS would be 'current'? EDIT: I'm also only about half way through the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/10/#findComment-3666316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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