Vengeful Spirit

[depthcharge12]

Lets not forget this is McNeill, his timeline adherence is suspect. :p

 

I see your mouth moving, but Wade Garret's voice coming out :P albeit less sarcastic.

 

 

I'm just glad that this book is at least moving the plot line along, but I have yet to read it. Who are the current surviving members of the knights errant?

[Kol Saresk]

@Scribe:

 

Russ is at Terra? I thiught he didn't make to Terra until after the Siege?

 

Well, AE and Betrayer happening doesn't necessarily mean UE has happened, but since the Imperium Secundus wasn't founded(technically) until the end of UE, it would have to be following that line of chronology.

 

Then again, it is McNeill so who knows?

[Veteran Sergeant]

I didn't mind it. It was just that, it seems McNeill keeps going for getting as any big names as possible into as small a place as possible.

One of the things about the Heresy is that its supposed to be huge. An entire galaxy's worth of stories. But so far, McNeill has seemed pretty comfortable with shrinking that scope. And honestly, while it was cool watching Sharrokyn give a smackdown to Lucius, the obvious OPness of his nature is rather hard to hide.

That's really been the whole series recently.

Abnett did it with Unremembered Novel (5 primarchs on one planet simultaneously)

ADB did it with Betrayer (3 in one place)

Kyme did it with Promethean Sun (3 in one place)

The reality is that the scope of the story has been shrinking because the storyline is getting stretched out. The series is basically starting to suffer from "sequel syndrome" with too many protagonists and antagonists mashed into every story. This was discussed last week, but we've left behind the "small stories" where we see the Heresy from the eyes of the "little" characters as they observe large events. The earlier novels focused on Remembrancers, and on individual Space Marines. And through them we got to see grand events unfolding from the ground level. At some point, there's been a conscious decision to "go big" in the series. Maybe it was consumer feedback or research that said the readers wanted more of the primarchs. Certainly there are plenty of comments here that gush over the newer novels, so maybe that's just the reality of it. GW's market strategy has certainly shifted to "sell whatever things the people will buy". Maybe the authors themselves have gotten caught up in the excitement of getting to write about the primarchs and other "big characters" that they've forgotten what made the earlier novels so good was that they used characters who could show the reader how the decisions of the galaxy's major players affected the people the reader could identify with. You cared when poor Solomon Demeter died. You cared when Prospero was razed. You cared when Torgaddon and Loken were cut down.

Can anyone tell me one single thing or character in Unremembered Empire that they cared about? Vulkan Lives? Deliverance Lost? Angel Exterminatus? I'm not talking about some "badass" action scene, or clever/dramatic bit of dialog. Or even if you just enjoyed the experience of reading it. I mean truly experienced some kind of visceral reaction to. Because if so, I missed it.

But any sense of "small stories in a big galaxy" seems to have been relegated to anthology short stories and audio dramas. The novels pretty much seem like they're going in this direction of "big characters doing big things". And it's definitely created a disconnect between the reader and the story. At least for me.

This looks amazing. Also, am I the only person who really liked Angel Exterminatus?!

So many Knights-Errant...

Seems rather fortuitous timing for the recent product line releases.

[Scribe]

Kol - Yep, Russ was playing super chess against Malcador and Loken on Terra, after escaping the Alphas in Scars, prior to Loken taking off to meet up with Dorn and form the Magnificent Seven Samurai Astartes.

 

Note, I dont know if it is seven, I really dont care about that plot line even a fraction of a percent, 11 are listed in the dramatus persone, but again, I wish the whole concept was dropped, like the :cuss TERRIBLE Wolves as Executioners garbage that is still being shoveled in this book.

 

Pardon me while I retch and then get back to reading. :p

[Scribe]

 

 

Can anyone tell me one single thing or character in Unremembered Empire that they cared about? Vulkan Lives? Deliverance Lost? Angel Exterminatus? I'm not talking about some "badass" action scene, or clever/dramatic bit of dialog. Or even if you just enjoyed the experience of reading it. I mean truly experienced some kind of visceral reaction to. Because if so, I missed it.

 

 

Out of those ones? Not really actually, not in a positive way.

 

I remember that UE had vastly :cussed levels of power between its characters.

Vulkan Lives was pure chaos to read through, and bounced all over some again very odd characterization.

DL, best left uncommented on. It was able to desicrate what little RG fluff existed from the IA articles.

AE, I felt bad for Pert, actually, and there where some interesting concepts going on.

 

Nothing like what ATS, TFH, or Betrayer did for me though, and I have'nt re-read any of them, while I have read ATS/TFH/Betrayer over 3 times each.

[Kol Saresk]

I liked Curze causing rampage and destruction throughout Macragge. :D

[Augustus]

The Lion is confirmed to be alive. He's just sleeping. .: )

[Hyaenidae]

I liked Curze causing rampage and destruction throughout Macragge.

The worst scene in the HH books to date. I understand that UE was meant as a 'set-up' book, setting the stage for the next part of the series, but I was nearly bored to tears. Narek of the Word was the only thing keeping me going in that book.

[Scribe]

And I think that speaks to what Veteran Sergeant is getting at as well. There is something to be said in seeing the actions from the ground, and for me especially, seeing it from a very specific cast of characters.

 

I love Primarch action, I love the dialog, but UE was seeing it from the eyes of a Primarch way too much, and that Primarch was left wanting. 10 Marines Rob? Ten?!

 

On the polar opposite we have Night "I am a Force of Nature" Haunter.

 

I dont know if Abnett actually said this or it was just attributed to him, but he seems to have turned UE into a book of Comic superhero's...it misses the point of the setting in this humble readers opinion.

 

Either way, I know what I like, and PARTS of this book are hitting the right cords for me, but a lot of it I could take a miss on, the Knights Errant of Malcador being part of it.

[Kol Saresk]

1000heathens, on 28 Apr 2014 - 01:36, said:

Kol_Saresk, on 28 Apr 2014 - 00:55, said:

I liked Curze causing rampage and destruction throughout Macragge.

The worst scene in the HH books to date. I understand that UE was meant as a 'set-up' book, setting the stage for the next part of the series, but I was nearly bored to tears. Narek of the Word was the only thing keeping me going in that book.

Tow-may-toe, tuh-maw-toe. Personally I found Narek uninteresting. Curious, as it is an Astartes who actually thinks he can kill a Primarch, but uninteresting. Meanwhile, we finally get a representation of the Night Lords not only causing terror but not running away in any shape or form and yet, it is the Night Lords fans who are most disappointed. Its like a Decepticon fan being upset when Megatron killed Optimus Prime in the Generation 1 animated movie. Or that the Decepticons tore through Chicago in Dark Side of the Moon, which was admittedly the only part of the whole movie I enjoyed aside from the visual depictions of all the proto-forms.

I'm sorry, but this was a singular scene where one of the possibly most vile creatures in all of 40K was able to fully 100% wreak the carnage he is supposed to be famous and despised for and I reveled in it. Nowhere else do the Night Lords get to do something they are famous for without it being just a hackjob of what everyone else does but somehow more horrifying just because its the Night Lords. The Primarchs are supposed to be the epitome of humanity; its very essence given form and made superior. You really wanna tell me that I'm supposed to believe the Primarch who grew up in Hell and made everyone it his is supposed to be physically incapable of making another Primarch's world feel terror for one night? Ye-nope. Not buying it. A villain finally got to have his day and I for one enjoyed my poop-free cornflakes.

[Adra'Melek]

The only thing I didn't like about the rampage was Curze's ability to be Nic Cage from Next. So his visions don't always come true? Or is he seeing himself dodge and then realising he needs to dodge? It 'cheapens' his 'gift' IMO. The idea of him running amok is fine and appropriate.

[Balthamal]

<p>Finished reading it last night and let it digest before putting some thoughts out there. So on that note:</p>

<p> </p>

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</p>

<p>It's good to see the timeline of the HH moving forward. It was getting beyond frustrating having to constantly jump back and forwards in the narrative, especially around Istvaan V. Whether that was due to a lack of planning or the fact that some stories leapt out compared to others when it came to decided in which order to tackle what we'll never know but at least in the previous few novels there's been progress. As of this point, we're now 3-4 years into the HH </p>

<p> </p>

<p>Horus' portrayal was spot on. His motivations and actions were entirely in keeping with his evolving character. The only thing I found slightly off was his desire to have Loken back amongst the Legion after attempting to ensure his death on Istvaan III. Maybe it's some of those traces of regret he has buried in his mind but time will tell. </p>

<p> </p>

<p>Mortarion was....interesting. Whilst I liked the majority of his scenes I still can't reconcile his behaviour with Fulgrim and his actions in the gene vaults. Given his previous actions regarding the warp and the things he does to ensure Grulgor's rebirth, it just jars too much with me. If it's true the Death Guard are getting a full novel before then to explain some of his change of heart then I could live with.</p>

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<p>The Knights Errant were a good element to the story however I think a few of them needed a more thorough explanation. Loken, Qruze, Varren and Severian have had plenty of light shone on them elsewhere and I just think that the remaining members deserved the same thing. They were portrayed as the Magnificent Sevan so to be successful in that each character needed to be laid bare.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I was surprised to see the Emperor have a conversation with Malcador. More for the things it revealed rather than it taking place at all. How he's certain of the Lion's loyalty despite past events, how he knows about Gulliman's plans even if he can't see into the Five Hundred Worlds himself and how he's troubled by the Khan's loyalty after Russ' reports of the Scars. I kinda like how the V Legion are something of a completely wild element in all of this. Be very good to see how they eventually return to Terra.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>The battle scenes on Molech were excellent, very believable when you pitch two contrasting forces against each other. The Blood Angels were a bit of a let down truth be told but given the ironic slap in the face they gave Horus by dying instead of slaughtering their allies I could live with it.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>The way the corruption of House Devine was dealt with were unexpected and a good twist. After all the build up of just how much of a :cuss the one son is, to have him reject Fulgrim's temptations and then be murdered by his half brother who gives in wholeheartedly to the corruption and basically ensures the ground war is lost was a clever way of working it.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Really? ANOTHER Imperator Titan dies. I mean come on, just once, can we see these things lay waste to entire armies like they're SUPPOSED to?</p>

<p>

</p>

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah Imperators are only included in stories to die.

[Karthak]

Can anyone tell me one single thing or character in Unremembered Empire that they cared about? Vulkan Lives? Deliverance Lost? Angel Exterminatus? I'm not talking about some "badass" action scene, or clever/dramatic bit of dialog. Or even if you just enjoyed the experience of reading it. I mean truly experienced some kind of visceral reaction to. Because if so, I missed it.

Plenty of stuff I liked in those books, but the scene that got the biggest reaction from me was when Curze confronted Roboute's mother.

 

Another was this: "You don't know my dreams, brother. Nobody ever cared enough to find out."

[Greyall]

@Veteran: Dealing in absolutes is how you don't want to discuss a book, mate. I did get that visceral feel, here are a couple of examples:

 

 

 

 

a) When the Lion was about to stalk Curze

 

b ) When the Ultramarine Captain and his Dark Angel counterpart were ambushed by Curze

 

c) When Pollux fought Curze

 

d) Guilliman's reaction when the Lion arrived

 

e) Everyone's reaction when Guilliman and the Lion appeared, armed and ready to confront Curze - by then I'd already read the spoilers for the whole book, so I knew Curze would 'win' that fight. It was still awesome to witness that Big Damned Heroes moment.

 

f) The first moments of Vulkan fighting Curze and later, when the Perpetuals fought both.

 

 

 

 

Mileage does vary...

[Emperor's Furor]

I genuinely found it funny when Vulkan just kept getting up and beating Curze down and Curze would go "Why won't you die!".

[Wade Garrett]

Can anyone tell me one single thing or character in Unremembered Empire that they cared about?

Roboute Guilliman.

 

No, really. I've said this elsewhere, but Rob's depiction in Know No Fear (a statue carved to represent stoic dignity that speaks Action Movie: "Whatever does not kill me is not trying hard enough!", "Lorgar, I will find you, I will kill you, and I will cast your toxic corpse into the mouth of Hell!") left me fairly cool on the Battle King.

 

Getting into his head in UE, seeing him jealous of the Lion, mourning Konor (and Horus), the fact that he truly loved his foster-mother, worried about how history would remember him..we got to see the man inside the myth, and I liked that.

 

It reminded me a lot of how David Gemmell wrote his legendary heroes, never shying away from showing the feet of clay.

 

Now, I do understand that some people like an "unknowable demi-god" depiction of the Primarchs, and if that was my preference then yes, I can see how reading UE would be akin to being repeatedly waterboarded.

 

But I was asked for my subjective opinion, and I have given it.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Guilliman's mom was one of the lesser parts of that novel for me. She was just so out of place, and she made Guilliman act out of character. All of the decisiveness we saw in KNF disappeared in scenes when his mother was around. He, quite literally, became an entirely different character to suit the needs of the narrative. I'd liken it to the radical character shifts we saw in the show Mad Men when the writers decided in Season 3 that they wanted to shift Betty Draper out of the picture and make Don a more empathetic character to build attachment with the audience. I mean, what good would the character of Guilliman's mom be if she doesn't have some sagely wisdom to offer a troubled Guilliman? She'd just be a figurehead. So instead of the calculating, decisive man of action we saw in KNF, he became self-doubting and irresolute, simply because that was what the narrative needed him to be in order for his mother to serve a purpose in the story.

This is a character who has been crusading on his own for over a century, leading massive armies and empire-building, then surviving a treachery so vast that anything other than the quickest and most well executed decision making would have led to a loss. And yet the second he comes home, he's looking to his mother for advice because he's not confident of his path? It's out of character. His mother needed to play the opposite role. Where she questions his actions, and then Guilliman explains his rationales. Or, even better, she just never be a character at all, and instead it's a discussion with a trusted equerry or one of the Tertrachs. Either way, we get to see what Guilliman's doubts are, but we also see how he's dealt with them in the same calculated-risk-measurement he has done everything else (except for bafflingly brashly pursuing Angron and Lorgar to facilitate Saturday Night Primarch Fist Fights!). I mean, whether or not you empathize with decisive characters like Guilliman, that's the kind of character he is. Lorgar doubts, Lorgar whines. Because that's his character, and his doubting and whining is why he became the first pawn in the Chaos Gods' chess match. Guilliman has never really existed in the narrative as a character the reader should identify with, because that's not the kind of personality he is. Guilliman's weaknesses have always lied in his attachment to duty. It's why he wasn't the ideal Warmaster. It's why he was able to be tricked at Calth and never suspicious of Lorgar's motivations. It's ultimately going to [well, should be, if it's written correctly] be why he chooses to step down from the High Council after the Scouring and reject his place as Emperor II. The audience isn't supposed to identify with Alec Baldwin's character in Glenngary Glen Ross. They're not supposed to identify with Leonardo DiCaprio's character in The Wolf of Wall Street. Nor George C. Scott's Patton. Guilliman's a character we're supposed to understand and observe through effective narration, even be fascinated by, but not really one that too many people are going to identify with. History is rife with characters like Guilliman who were effective men of action, because history doesn't remember too many of the people who weren't. Like Achilles said in Troy when the kid says he'd be too scared to fight the giant Thessalian champion, "And that is why no one will remember your name."

You can't really pigeonhole the primarch in the manner where they're all "unknowable demigods" nor even classify there being a desire for one or the other, because that's not how they work. Even Guilliman isn't "unknowable"; he's just the least knowable. Which also explains really why he gets so much flak from fans, for the very reason that he is the kind of character that isn't immediately transparent. A common criticism of Guilliman is that he's too perfect, or has no flaws, but in reality it's just that most people don't understand his character, nor the role he plays in the universe, so they don't understand where his character traits fit into the greater dynamic of the storyline. 40K needs a character like Guilliman in it to serve as a foil to all the others. It's a storyline full of Primarch characters who branch out to extremes, so Guilliman being the extreme rationalist and pragmatist just puts him in the exact same spectrum, if albeit less of a firebrand and a somewhat less "spectacular" character.

Some of the other actions and insights we got into Guilliman's character were interesting. His assessments of the Lion and Horus, for example, and his calculation of how his decisions to build a secondary empire would be viewed. Those are more believable actions and thoughts for Guilliman. We've seen him repeatedly analyze his peers in that manner. So I agree with you there though.

[Greyall]

You are comparing how outsiders see Guilliman to how someone inside his private chambers and even his mind would see him. Once you enter a pragmatist's personal space you see the doubts appearing (and they ought to, if said character is human and intended as believable), had Guilliman been made an extreme rationalist and I doubt he'd be any interesting as a main character.

 

Dorn is supposed to be the most adamant in his dedication to duty, and even he broods and almost despairs...

[helterskelter]

However I find guilliman probably wouldn't be able to take constant avenger mega bolter to the face like mortarion does in vengeful spirit and back to the correct book now :p

[Greyall]

How literal is 'to the face'?

[Scribe]

He's a sitting duck and gets shot up big time. If thats what your asking.

[Veteran Sergeant]

had Guilliman been made an extreme rationalist and I doubt he'd be any interesting as a main character.

Maybe he's not supposed to be then.

 

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. Guilliman isn't supposed to be that character you want him to be. And he's also not human, so he doesn't need to be believable as a human character. But again, people aren't always what you're describing as "believable" anyway. You're projecting an unrealistic storytelling expectation here. Basic creative writing courses will suggest that there are certain "must dos" when it comes to creating "believable" characters. But the problem is, all you're doing is following a formula for creating a person rather than creating a real person. And the reason why those things get harped on to beginning writers is that not everyone automatically develops the sophistication to write believable characters with non-standard personality traits. That's why some books end up as Twilight, and other books end up as A Game of Thrones. There's a reason why Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark are different kinds of characters. Because their motivations and fears are different. and their methods for overcoming those fears are different. Tywin Lannister is cold and calculating, whereas Ned Stark is far more emotional, selfless, and idealistic. However nobody suggests that Tywin Lanniser isn't a believable character because he's a ruthless, pragmatic jerk much of the time. Guilliman is just the rationalist, the planner, the pragmatist of the 40K story. Dorn is actually much different from Guilliman. Whereas Guilliman is an application of the aspects and limitations of the Roman Virtues, Dorn incorporates instead the classic Temperament of Melancholy, where he is an introverted perfectionist (as opposed to Fulgrim's extroverted perfectionist who falls to the classic Deadly Sins of Pride/Hubris/Lust etc).

 

Abnett writes very formulaic, heavily borrowed stories. So I can see where he'd resort to pastiche when it comes to writing facets of Guilliman's character. Why does Abnett remind so many people of other things? Because he's imitating those things, lol. Prospero Burns is a 40K adaptation of The Thirteenth Warrior, right down to the space-going, techno-barbarian Space Wolves for some reason needing a fish-out-of-water dude with an Arab name to draw sounds for them because they can drive tanks and operate spacecraft, but written communication is beyond them. Abnett's popularity in the realm of license fiction is no surprise. It's the same reason Hollywood's lack of originality and overabundance of sequels, remakes, and derivative material hasn't hurt the film industry.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

Pretty much directly in the face, The Iron Hands Commander, Meduson left a going away present for Horus, the Mournival, Mortarion and Fulgrim, in the form of three fire raptors who appeared and obliterated an ancient library on Dwell that they were in

 

[helterskelter]

he catches an iron hands fighter like a fish with his scythe and chain, and holds onto it, whilst attempting to pull it in, while its letting rip at him. Constantly. Until horus pretends he's in 300, leaps through the air and smashes it out the sky. And morty is still there bleeding from all the new holes he's been given. Should be less alive, than the less alive beating he got in scars.