Vengeful Spirit

[Wade Garrett]

He pulled a Thunderhawk out of the sky, possibly more than one if Khârn's rebuke to Angron ("He pulled gunshipS from the sky with spite alone...) is taken literally.

[Kol Saresk]

Lorgar psychically pulled a Thunderhawk out of the air during the battle for Armatura. I can't get the page reference since home is four hours away but I'm sure that should be enough for someone else to find it.

[A D-B]

 

Takes on a fighter, gets shot up, walks away like a boss. Best Primarch.

Lorgar took a plasma cannon to the face. O.O

 

In fairness, Lorgar took a plasma blast while psychically shielded. It's easy to argue he could've been entirely unharmed, as we've seen from kine shields and psyker powers many other times in the lore, but that would've bugged me.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think it just means the BL authors are fed up with flyers.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Takes on a fighter, gets shot up, walks away like a boss. Best Primarch.

Lorgar took a plasma cannon to the face. O.O

In fairness, Lorgar took a plasma blast while psychically shielded. It's easy to argue he could've been entirely unharmed, as we've seen from kine shields and psyker powers many other times in the lore, but that would've bugged me.

I'm fully aware. Its just kind of... Inane to say "best primarch because he got shot" when you have things like Lorgar getting shot in the face wiith a plasma cannon and stopping it with a kine shield. Sure he got contact burns, but still. Its awesome.

[depthcharge12]

So let me get this straight.

Legion: "That is all you get."

Vengeful Spirit: "One shot is all you get."

Betrayer: Primarch pulls plane out of the sky.

Vengeful Spirit: Primarch pulls plane out of the sky.

Is it just me or does something with the book see a pattern emerging?

 

A so so author borrowing from the two best authors for lack of imagination?

 

 

I will alert the hate police immediately!!!

[Scribe]

I like McNeill personally. ATS and Mechanicum are a few of my favorites. I think he just should have focused on the SoH, but I'm still trying to get through this book.

[A D-B]

 

 

 

 

Takes on a fighter, gets shot up, walks away like a boss. Best Primarch.

Lorgar took a plasma cannon to the face. O.O

In fairness, Lorgar took a plasma blast while psychically shielded. It's easy to argue he could've been entirely unharmed, as we've seen from kine shields and psyker powers many other times in the lore, but that would've bugged me.

I'm fully aware. Its just kind of... Inane to say "best primarch because he got shot" when you have things like Lorgar getting shot in the face wiith a plasma cannon and stopping it with a kine shield. Sure he got contact burns, but still. Its awesome.

 

Shut up. I didn't reply to the wrong person at all. I never make mistakes. Shut up, I say.

[DuskRaider]

I will not tolerate nay saying. I have declared the best Primarch, there are no backsies or rebukes.

[mc warhammer]

character is contradiction. the Primarchs are unfathomable demigods with all too human flaws to the point of juvinility.

 

we all act different according to the situation or people we are with. our mothers, our girlfriends, our colleagues or our children. we're almost different people depending on the circumstance. character should never be repetitive. there's a through line, a "spine" or worldview but not presenting the times that spine breaks or the worldview is hypocritical or weakens is boring and one dimensional.

[Scribe]

 

I will not tolerate nay saying. I have declared the best Primarch, there are no backsies or rebukes.

 

I DENY YOU.

[Fury_of_Fenris]

Got to say pretty dissapointed nothing really happened

[Greyall]

I get Veteran Sergeant's point, the Primarchs seem to be losing that 'larger than human' tone they had when they were but legends. Truth is, though, portraying the Primarchs' minds as more human helps heighten the Emperor's tragedy: in his strive to enlighten Humanity, he's probably not human enough to account for the human factor. He expects others to emulate him and follow him, forgetting that his mind is extremely hard to emulate for a good deal of humans and pretty hard to follow since it goes into paths not many can tread. Not even Primarchs. They're pretty extreme as it is, I think. And most of them pay a price for it (both mental and psychological) when things really stop being a walk in the park for them.

[Kol Saresk]

Here's an opinion on the Emperor:

 

He is humanity personified in a way nothing else is. He is our bloodthirst, our envy, our love, our mercy, our logic, our nihilism and our hypocrisy. Thus not only was he perfect, but his very perfection is what made him imperfect.

Basically, the Emperor is the perfect human personification. But because humans are flawed, imperfect beings, the Emperor himself is therefore a flawed an imperfect being. This is why at times we see him being a compassionate to Vulkan on one occasion, yet a cold, heartless master Angron on a different occasion. Why in one scene we see him sad, betrayed and melancholic that his own son has turned against him, but on another is cold and calculating towards normal humans who have strayed from his path. Why one hand he grants obliteration to Horus to let his soul rest in peace where the Chaos Gods can never have it, but on another has no problem sending millions to the executioner's block.

 

He has accounted for the Human Factor. The problem is that like any ordinary human, he never realized what kind of example he was setting until it was too late.

[Balthamal]

It's been frequently said that the Primarchs were the sum of Humanity magnified. if that's the case, what does that say for the Emperor himself? He is Humanity take to it's utmost pinnacle. But people tend to forget that he said himself, he can be all-knowing and all-powerful. Just not at the same time. In this case he's definitely all powerful - he made 20 demi-gods for his sons and made millions of their sons for his armies and conquered most of the known galaxy. Seeing where that leads the all knowing portion was taking a walk somewhere

[Greyall]

I think the Primarch's personalities were more or less designed by the Emperor in their basic traits. And at times he seems to simply expect his sons to stick to those traits without accounting for the effects their upbringing and background have on them. So I'm not really sure he accounted for the human factor. Much as he has observed Mankind throughout the ages...he's not a man, he's an avatar for a race. He's pure in his decisions because they seem driven by pure (literally, not pure as in 'good') emotions. That's not very human.

 

To me the best proof for his lack of understanding of individual behaviour and his intention to have the Primarchs (and Legions) embody a trait is that he pretty much let them roam around doing whatever they liked - at least until irrepareable extremes were met.

[Karthak]

 

 

Takes on a fighter, gets shot up, walks away like a boss. Best Primarch.

Lorgar took a plasma cannon to the face. O.O

 

In fairness, Lorgar took a plasma blast while psychically shielded. It's easy to argue he could've been entirely unharmed, as we've seen from kine shields and psyker powers many other times in the lore, but that would've bugged me.

Didn't that Warhound shoot him twice? First blast was entirely blocked by the shield, but the second overwhelmed it and partially fried him. Then the Warhound shot him a bit with its bolter, causing him to fall over.

 

That's actually one of the scenes that made me shout "ADB, you tease!" :D If that traitor Warhound had been just a little slower, both Angron and Lorgar would have been literally crushed by the loyalist Warhound.

[Greyall]

Back to VS: I assume Horus barely shrugs when he sees the new Fulgrim?

 

Also, do we have any indication of the Red Angel's power? Does he wipe the floor with the Blood Angels or is it just his Red Thirst effect that gives him an edge over the marines?

[Balthamal]

He literally overwhelms their sense of self with an aura of pure fury. Something to do with being bound by Erebus or some such keeps him from being truly unleashed. When Horus enters the Warp, the Red Angel is not constrained there and Horus does a pretty fine job of putting it in it's place

[Greyall]

He did seem pretty arrogant at the end of Fear to Tread. But man, that thing unleashed at the Siege of Terra would cause a lot of rucus.

[Kol Saresk]

Back to VS: I assume Horus barely shrugs when he sees the new Fulgrim?

 

Well, considering how in Aurelian while he did want to get Fulgrim back, he had no problem using the daemon in the meantime, my guess would be that since he[Horus] is the vessel for the Ruinous Powers by this time[3rd or 4th year of the Heresy], his sense of what he should and should not have a problem with is skewed. At best we can hope for a "I'm sorry this happened to you and Angron". At worst, "I'm sure your new form shall serve me well in the battles to come."

[DuskRaider]

Except with our power of reader's foresight, we already know that Fulgrim and his Legion are nigh useless on Terra.

[Balthamal]

No doubt, I'm looking forward to see how it's explained away the fact there's literally hundreds of thousands of legionnaires and countless daemons who can do all sorts of crazy stuff are kept out of the Imperial Palace by just 3 Legions and however many Titans are there (if ever there was a time to see how awesome Imperators are, it's right there)

 

There's actually a passage where Horus checks that Fulgrim is himself again and not puppeteered by a daemon. Although being honest I think it boils down more to him wanting a Fulgrim he's familiar with and is able to reliably exert some control over. He is slightly concerned about Perturabo though, needing him to take on Dorn and all that.

 

I think he's at the point now where he's looking past the things that might have troubled him previously. Fulgrim in mortal form or Fulgrim in daemonic form, both will be useful to him so he'll just get on with. He keep's Ferrus' skull in a box next to his throne so he's well into the realms of crazy by now

[Greyall]

@Dusk: Still subject to retcon, though. At the very least I can see Horus doing something about it. At the very very least I hope he does

Angron as a Daemon...I suspect that he'll be a bigger problem than Fulgrim, now, even more uncontrollable than before. Unless the transformation has somewhow taken the maddening effect of the Nails and made him just a melee lover, but whatever was lost with the nails should be replaced with Khorne-juju.

Where is Perturabo, by the way?

Also, I'd keep Ferrus' skull in sight, as well. Hell, I'd wear it on my armour, if I was Horus. Or does he...talk to the thing?

[Balthamal]

Maybe Khorne will exert some calming influence on him, since he is kind of invested in Horus winning and all that.

 

Given the fact Lorgar had to chain him to the hold of The Conqueror though I'd say his self control has taken a nose dive