Vengeful Spirit

[Conn Eremon]

And some have taken said statements as if they were Objective Truths of The Universe carved upon the Golden Tablets of Truth by an angel of Truth wielding a fiery sword of Truth.

And this has always been my issue about the 'Executioners' schtick. The people who absolutely loved that the Wolves were the bestest of the bestest and pointed it out at every opportunity whether true or not, and those who sat at the other end of the spectrum that loudly wail, rant and complain of the merest mention of the Wolves doing things, whether the schtick is present or not.

 

Fortunately, the annoyances of the former have been nonexistent of late. The latter has suffered no lessening of zeal, however.

[Kol Saresk]

so basically the wolves are capable of what the traitors happily do but what sets them apart is remaining loyalists and sane. works for me.

 

i have no issue with them viewing themselves as executioners or whether it's true or not. being an executioner isn't about being the best, it's about willingness and reliability in this case. i'll never understand the fuss.

Its more like they say they are the only ones capable of doing what the Traitors happily do and the only thing that separates them is they are lying about it. And they remained loyal. As for sanity, that is forever relative. If you want to call giant child-soldiers who running around killing men, women and child "because orders" sane, well that's your prerogative.

 

The thing about it that irked everyone(except the more rabid Space Wolves fans) was when the more rabid Space Wolves fans started using it as some sort of end all be all to pretty much everything. And it got real old, real fast.

 

The fluff has taken remarkable leaps and bounds to prove it as nothing more than personal bias of the Wolves carried around as a title to the point everyone is going "Great. Its the Executioners and their wagging tails." In a way, they've become the laughing stock of the Legions with their only saving grace is that like any dog, they will bite back if provoked enough.

 

Although that might just be an overly cynical and harsh view.

[Marshal Rohr]

Vengeful Spirit does a good job of making sure everyone knows that the 'Executioner' role is a view point held by the Wolves and Russ, with a few people who have favorable opinions of them feeling the same, but the majority see Russ as doing it of his own accord and sometimes overstepping the boundaries. By this point in the series it's clear the Wolves have made it their mission to stop Horus, but it wasn't a mission given to them. Malcador wants them on Terra for instance.

[Kol Saresk]

My question is how did they get back to Terra? Or more specifically, why did they go back if they were just going to leave?

 

Even the White Scars made more sense with the "We will go where we go, but call on us and we will be there."

[amaze07]

Just started it the other day, but all I can say is that it feels like they have finally started to get back on track as to what they had before, the series I felt was becoming a bit stale and stagnant!

[Marshal Rohr]

After the fight with the Alphas described in the new Bjorn story they went back to rearm and refit their gear before heading out again. The Raven Guard did the same thing IIRC. At this point it seems like there is some division in the loyalist camp. With the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Ultramarines pursuing their own agenda, The Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands pursuing revenge, the White Scars doing whatever they want, the Space Wolves going for Horus' throat, with only the Imperial Fists actually trying to defend Terra.

[Emperor's Furor]

Is there a story describing their fight with the alphas? the last I read was in Scars when they were forced to withdraw into a nebula. Vengeful Spirit suggests the Dark Angels turned up to rescue them, I'd really love to read that.

[Karthak]

@Scribe:

 

 

In a way, yes, I do appreciate the Executioner schtick, but not for the reason that might come to mind. Basically, the Wolves are representative of "that guy" who says he can do everything and do it the best, but is constantly proven wrong.

 

"We're willing to kill Space Marines."

 

Great, World Eaters, Night Lords and Word Bearers(if attached quote is reliable) have been there and done that.

 

"We're willing to do the jobs no one else wants."

 

So are Angron, Fulgrim(remember no one wanted to fight the Laer), Curze, and pretty much all of the Traitors.

 

"We play the savage so our foes think we're stupid."

 

Yeah, that doesn't work out all too well when the entire VI Legion attacks a homeworld with only 10,000 Astartes defending it and the turning point in the conflict was when the Flesh Change crippled the opposition. Besides, better to be silent and thought a fool then open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

That's how I look at it.

 

Now, just to be clear, I do not hate the SW. I'm pointing out the bluster-comedy of the Executioner schtick.

 

Only 10.000? If I remember correctly A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns were written before they decided to pump up the average Legion strength from 10.000 to 100.000. And Massacre mentions that as of the Dropsite Massacre the Raven Guard was the smallest Legion, with 80.000 Astartes.

[Scribe]

My question is how did they get back to Terra? Or more specifically, why did they go back if they were just going to leave?

 

Even the White Scars made more sense with the "We will go where we go, but call on us and we will be there."

 

 

After the fight with the Alphas described in the new Bjorn story they went back to rearm and refit their gear before heading out again. The Raven Guard did the same thing IIRC. At this point it seems like there is some division in the loyalist camp. With the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Ultramarines pursuing their own agenda, The Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands pursuing revenge, the White Scars doing whatever they want, the Space Wolves going for Horus' throat, with only the Imperial Fists actually trying to defend Terra.

 

So its the Bjorn audio that explains the Wolves at Terra?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

@Scribe:

 

 

In a way, yes, I do appreciate the Executioner schtick, but not for the reason that might come to mind. Basically, the Wolves are representative of "that guy" who says he can do everything and do it the best, but is constantly proven wrong.

 

"We're willing to kill Space Marines."

 

Great, World Eaters, Night Lords and Word Bearers(if attached quote is reliable) have been there and done that.

 

"We're willing to do the jobs no one else wants."

 

So are Angron, Fulgrim(remember no one wanted to fight the Laer), Curze, and pretty much all of the Traitors.

 

"We play the savage so our foes think we're stupid."

 

Yeah, that doesn't work out all too well when the entire VI Legion attacks a homeworld with only 10,000 Astartes defending it and the turning point in the conflict was when the Flesh Change crippled the opposition. Besides, better to be silent and thought a fool then open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

That's how I look at it.

 

Now, just to be clear, I do not hate the SW. I'm pointing out the bluster-comedy of the Executioner schtick.

 

Only 10.000? If I remember correctly A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns were written before they decided to pump up the average Legion strength from 10.000 to 100.000. And Massacre mentions that as of the Dropsite Massacre the Raven Guard was the smallest Legion, with 80.000 Astartes.

 

 

A garrison of ten thousand does not equal a Legion of ten thousand. As it was discussed with Laurie Goulding on First Expedition, there are ten thousand Sons on Prospero. If the XVII Legion was reprimanded for being slow, what do you think would happen if an entire Legion just stopped? The logical inference would then be that the ten thousand at Prospero are not the entirety of the Legion and the rest is instead found in the scattered defense fleets and various garrisons and Expedition Fleets making up the Great Crusade's frontline.

[Marshal Rohr]

I believe it is the Bjorn audio. I don't own it so someone else may need to fact check me. And Kol is right, from my understanding Magnis brought his closest advisors back to Prospero to complete the ritual that broke the Emperor's web way. While the others were elsewhere. It was only the remnants of those with Magnus that ended up on the planet of sorcerers. To be reasonable, FW has gone out of their way to show that even the legions most damaged in the fighting still had large complements of forces elsewhere so people can build armies of them to fight for either side. Something like 20,000 Iron Hands were not at the drop site. Several Thousand Salamanders escaped Isstvan and more were elsewhere. Only the Raven Guard was mauled to the point of under 10,000. But again someone needs to fact check me.

[Kol Saresk]

If Fulgrim is accurate, "only" the 52nd(I think it was called) Expedition Fleet of the Iron Hands responded to the Dropsite Massacre. Of course, since it was attacked by Fulgrim when Ferrus refused his offer, it responded in two waves. The first being the 10,000 Morlocks who attacked in the first wave, and then the rest of the Expedition that attacked in the second wave. IIRC, Massacre puts the entirety of the Iron Hands force around two-thirds of the Legion strength, which would leave somewhere around 38,000 not at Istvaan V.

 

As for the Raven Guard, I think it is something like 5,000 return to Deliverance(according to Extermination from what I hear; Deliverance Lost says only about two thousand were rescued and places the total around three thousand). As we can see in Angel Exterminatus and Unremembered Empire, these rescuees are not the only survivors. So it becomes a logical assumption that the true number is unknown. We just have an accounted for number, which is ~3,000-5,000.

 

When it comes to the numbers, a nice little "~" is required. Because sometimes its presented as "at this place we saw this many." And sometimes it is presented as "at this time, there were this many counted throughout the Crusade."

[DuskRaider]

I thought the Iron Hands had pretty much their entire Legion sans First Company (and Primarch, WOMP WOMP). 

[Kol Saresk]

Nope. Massacre says the totality of the 52nd Expedition was about two-thirds of the total Legion strength apparently. A serious blow, but at the moment the Iron Hands seem to be having the most survivors of the Massacre combined with the most amount elsewhere at the time.

[Emperor's Furor]

 

I thought the Iron Hands had pretty much their entire Legion sans First Company (and Primarch, WOMP WOMP). 

 

Nah they had their entire first company, Ferrus put them on the fastest ships and the rest of the legion would turn up later. Its shown originally in the index astartes to explain why they have few suits of terminator armour because they were lost on Istvaan, but that bit was retconned later on.

[DuskRaider]

Ahh, okay. Yeah, that makes the Xth Legion's predicament a bit worse than previously thought.

[Conn Eremon]

The most elite few went with Ferrus to Isstvan and suffered the massacre, but tens of thousands more were lost when the remainder of the 52nd caught up.

 

Edit: I believe it expressly says "tens of thousands," and no specific numbers are given. It looks to me like they suffered 1/2 to 2/3 losses.

[Sevatar]

I reckon, given the whole fleet battle, around 1/2 ~ survived.

[Plague Angel]

"Wolf's Claw" doesn't really describe anything.

 

Bjorn wants a lightning claw, Bjorn gets a lightning claw, Bjorn kills one (1) Alpha Legion guy with the lightning claw. The story ends.

[DuskRaider]

Sounds riveting.

[Emperor's Furor]

For 3 pound I wasn't expecting much, but I don't think I expected so little lol.

[Stonerhino]

so basically the wolves are capable of what the traitors happily do but what sets them apart is remaining loyalists and sane. works for me.

 

i have no issue with them viewing themselves as executioners or whether it's true or not. being an executioner isn't about being the best, it's about willingness and reliability in this case. i'll never understand the fuss.

There are laud voices that will claim from up high that being "Executioners" means being the best.  However it just means that they had the best skill set for the job.  The main part is a willingness to do the job in the first place.  Could other Legions do the job sure.  But it is the Wolves that not only could do it but would and against anyone the Emperor demanded.  Even when they themselves don't want to. 

 

It is shown very well in UR.  The lead SW tells Guilliman that even if the situation was unwinnable that they would try anyways.  The duty given to them was more important then their lives.

 

However that being said you really can't argue anymore about the Wolves being executioners.  Malcador says they are to Dorn and Constantine in Scars.  Then in Vengefull Spirit Malcador to the Emperor:

 

‘Russ is your executioner,’ said Malcador tactfully.

 

[Kol Saresk]

The question is, are they meant to be executioners, or executors?

[Scribe]

I guess I cant argue that it isnt said by others, as your quotes clearly illustrate StoneRhino, but does it add anything? Its still completely impossible for me to accept that if (pre-heresy) the Emperor said 'Hey World Eaters, go take out the Thousand Sons' they would have declined. Night of the Wolf makes it plain as day, they wouldnt have blinked, wouldnt have cared, and in the end probably would have enjoyed the process.

 

@Kol, hilariously well pointed out.

[Wade Garrett]

I really can't see Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists balking at a command like "Konrad's Legion needs to not exist anymore" either.

 

Of course, being the executioner is a rather daft thing to take pride in anyway.

 

"An execution is the murder of helpless prey. What you've committed to here, brother, is a fair fight!"

-Angron