Vengeful Spirit

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

man, I dislike the majority of SW fans...okay, thats a stretch. I dislike the vocal "Russ rulez we r awesome space vikings werewolves on crack"

 

The Emperor's GIft and Night of the Wolf are amazing additions to the saga of the Rout.

 

WLK

[Plague Angel]

People read Know No Fear and put it down and thought "yup, that sure was an Ultramarines victory alright"?

 

I mean, I'm still kind of weirded out that people are keeping score to begin with. But if that's the sort of points that are tracked, I'm doubly unsure of what the point of that is.

[Kol Saresk]

People read Know No Fear and put it down and thought "yup, that sure was an Ultramarines victory alright"?

 

I mean, I'm still kind of weirded out that people are keeping score to begin with. But if that's the sort of points that are tracked, I'm doubly unsure of what the point of that is.

The Word Bearers either ran away with their tails between their legs, died or ascended(in the case of M'Kar). While pyrrhic, it was a victory.

[Plague Angel]

And the Ruinstorm opened up. The Ultramarines basically succeeded, sure, but they succeeded in not going extinct.

 

It's as Pyrrhic as it gets, and can be counted a victory or a loss for either side.

[Balthamal]

If you count a win as not dying to the last man then yeah Calth was a victory. In every other measurement it was a crushing loss. A vital world, in terms of it's infrastructure industrial output and it's symbolism - irradiated past the point of lethality.Tens of thousands of Astartes killed, a warp storm buring a hole through a good chunk of the galaxy. Not exactly ahead on the score card there.

 

As for the whole "lulz us wolves are teh executioners so dat means we must be da most OP spahsse mehreeens evah!!" trash, if you read pretty much all of DA's work, each Legion sets itself at the top table. It's natural, it happens with the fans of most sports teams always insisting that if they're not the undisputed number 1 then they're very close. The Sons of Horus did it for obvious reasons, the Alpha Legion were a bit more circumspect with it but they still viewed their modus operandi as superior to the rest (else why the hell would they persist with it), the Ultramarines did it and no doubt throughout the rest of the series we'll see all the rest hold that view point at some stage or other. Only the Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard won't because they've been shown they're NOT - they were gutted so hard to maintain an air of superiority when you're brought to the edge of extinction.

 

As for something Kol touched on, in terms of temperament, plenty of the traitors would have been adequate as a sanction amongst the Legions. In terms of their actions? Not so much. Case in point, The Night of the Wolf. Would the Night Lords have stuck around when they were being killed by the World Eaters? Not a chance - these guys run from anything resembling a fair fight. Could the World Eaters themselves be trusted to only go to certain lengths? No - the nails would drive them further and further on. 

 

Think too many people get caught up in the whole "executioner" blurb. What a lot aren't thinking about is maybe, just maybe, it isn't so much about executing a defeated enemy (since that doesn't fit, execution is the killing of a defeated enemy, it doesn't say anything about having to defeat them in the first place) but more about executing orders to their fullest and complete intent - again Night of the Wolf, whether told by the Emperor or not, they went to smack down the World Eaters, and they died, lots of them, but they still pushed on to the very end - they had Angron under their guns even if it cost them a lot to achieve it, they saw it through to it's conclusion.

 

Really hate having to have this debate every time something appears with the VI Legion in it, always seems to bring the fanboys out of the caves although to be fair there's plenty of SW players/fans who are not afflicted by the stupid sense of righteous entitlement that some of the more rabid display on a frequent basis

[Stonerhino]

I guess I cant argue that it isnt said by others, as your quotes clearly illustrate StoneRhino, but does it add anything? Its still completely impossible for me to accept that if (pre-heresy) the Emperor said 'Hey World Eaters, go take out the Thousand Sons' they would have declined. Night of the Wolf makes it plain as day, they wouldnt have blinked, wouldnt have cared, and in the end probably would have enjoyed the process.

 

@Kol, hilariously well pointed out.

Sorry for going so far back but the thread ran away without me.

 

The question is really could the World Eater have pulled it off.  In Galaxy in Flames the World Eaters have a tough time (Angron being repelled multiple times) by a Emperor's Children.  How well do you really think they would have done against the Thousand Son's defences.  At one point in A Thousand Sons there is a mention of perfectly aligned defence not killing enough of the SW because of how they used cover.  How well do you believe a bunch of nails lost bezerkers would do against that same defence.  The World Eaters and Angron even had trouble against the power armored humans in False Gods.  In Betrayer, if the Wolves would have been sent to execute Angron.  He would be dead.  Angron himself even states that Russ was not allowed to kill him.  Not that the Wolves couldn't do it.  Lorgar points out that Russ spared Angron even if Angron won the fight.  Wade's quote "An execution is the murder of helpless prey. What you've committed to here, brother, is a fair fight!".  Really falls flat when you look at the fact that Angron very shortly after saying it was at the Wolve's mercy. 

 

True the World Eaters have the "Will" but have been shown to lack the ability to actually do the job.  One on one the World Eaters are scary.  However they are lacking when it becomes larger fights.

 

There are other Legions that are at least as good as the Wolves in some areas.  But none that really match them in all areas of the job.  Including the psychological after effects. 

 

 Wade~

"I really can't see Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists balking at a command like "Konrad's Legion needs to not exist anymore" either.

That really is an exception that proves the rule.  Unless you believe that Dorn would be equally open to killing Sanguinius and the Blood Angels.  For example.

 

[mc warhammer]

any legion could kill any other legion in the right circumstance.

[Stonerhino]

Honestly that is simply not the case.  Ok to think but a different matter when put into practice.

[mc warhammer]

my point leaning on circumstance as much or more than any legion's inherent worth. just as any man on this board could kill any other. if the setting was correct.

[Stonerhino]

I can understand that but in some matchups "Cirumstances" would have to be so stacked.  That it would be pointless to even consider it.

[mc warhammer]

do you mean in the novels? i don't think i've read enough to know. i'm being mostly hypothetical here.

 

throughout history there are examples of a force that appears to have the "win" advantage (superior numbers or training or equipment) but lose to the underdogs for one reason or another.

 

then again, i'm sure there's plenty more examples where the favorites to win just...win.

[Wade Garrett]

Lorgar points out that Russ spared Angron even if Angron won the fight. Wade's quote "An execution is the murder of helpless prey. What you've committed to here, brother, is a fair fight!". Really falls flat when you look at the fact that Angron very shortly after saying it was at the Wolve's mercy.

 

And shortly before that Russ was at Angron's mercy. If the Eater of Worlds had wanted HIM dead, he would have finished the job when he had Russ crawling through the mud at his feet, not wasted time with conversations like:

 

"Look at how you've ruined your Legion, Angron! LOOK AT IT!"

 

"Frankly, my brother, I don't give a :cuss "

 

Also, Angron and the XII never needed a Chaos god to intervene directly and turn their enemies into Spawn to win a power armor fight, unlike the VI.

[Emperor's Furor]

I like to remember when Alexis Pollux turned up in Unremembered Empire he took Ultramarines to town on the way they organise their security and defenses, really showed them up.

[Kol Saresk]

And then he stabbed Curze with a sword. That's right, you heard me. In the book everyone complains about Curze being overpowered, the Night Haunter was stabbed. By an Imperial Fist. I believe the term is, "booyah".

[Wade Garrett]

The fact that seconds later he was only stopped from killing Lion and Guilliman at the same time by the "Does Whatever The Plot Needs It To" device does add a slight ring of truth to the cries of "Konrad OP! Plz nurf!", though.

[Kol Saresk]

And when doesn't a Primarch seem OP or protected by Plot Armor? Besides Ferrus. He was killed by the plot.

[Wade Garrett]

And when doesn't a Primarch seem OP or protected by Plot Armor? Besides Ferrus. He was killed by the plot.

Roboute Guilliman and Lorgar.

 

Who were beaten up by an old man, ten Alpha Legionaries, Angron, Corax, and Roboute Guilliman.

:)

[A D-B]

A D-B doesn't hate Space Wolves, he just hates Space Wolves fans

 

God, it was bad enough when a handful of people genuinely believed that, with zero evidence and against all sense. Don't even joke.

 

I can name 3 Space Wolf fans I dislike, but that's because they're contrary and uninformed souls that insist things against all rational argument and common sense, not because they're Space Wolf fans.

[Scribe]

 

I guess I cant argue that it isnt said by others, as your quotes clearly illustrate StoneRhino, but does it add anything? Its still completely impossible for me to accept that if (pre-heresy) the Emperor said 'Hey World Eaters, go take out the Thousand Sons' they would have declined. Night of the Wolf makes it plain as day, they wouldnt have blinked, wouldnt have cared, and in the end probably would have enjoyed the process.

 

@Kol, hilariously well pointed out.

Sorry for going so far back but the thread ran away without me.

 

The question is really could the World Eater have pulled it off.  In Galaxy in Flames the World Eaters have a tough time (Angron being repelled multiple times) by a Emperor's Children.  How well do you really think they would have done against the Thousand Son's defences.  At one point in A Thousand Sons there is a mention of perfectly aligned defence not killing enough of the SW because of how they used cover.  How well do you believe a bunch of nails lost bezerkers would do against that same defence.  The World Eaters and Angron even had trouble against the power armored humans in False Gods.  In Betrayer, if the Wolves would have been sent to execute Angron.  He would be dead.  Angron himself even states that Russ was not allowed to kill him.  Not that the Wolves couldn't do it.  Lorgar points out that Russ spared Angron even if Angron won the fight.  Wade's quote "An execution is the murder of helpless prey. What you've committed to here, brother, is a fair fight!".  Really falls flat when you look at the fact that Angron very shortly after saying it was at the Wolve's mercy. 

 

True the World Eaters have the "Will" but have been shown to lack the ability to actually do the job.  One on one the World Eaters are scary.  However they are lacking when it becomes larger fights.

 

There are other Legions that are at least as good as the Wolves in some areas.  But none that really match them in all areas of the job.  Including the psychological after effects. 

> 

 Wade~

"I really can't see Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists balking at a command like "Konrad's Legion needs to not exist anymore" either.

That really is an exception that proves the rule.  Unless you believe that Dorn would be equally open to killing Sanguinius and the Blood Angels.  For example.

 

 

 

And there we have it. So the Wolves ARE better, and can perform tasks that no other can. ;)

 

This is my point made manifest. The book has created a position, that is even arguable, and has been reinforced throughout the rest of the series.

 

If nobody else has a problem with that, thats fine. I simply think it adds nothing, detracts from the other Legions, and elevates one falsely above the rest.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

I guess I cant argue that it isnt said by others, as your quotes clearly illustrate StoneRhino, but does it add anything? Its still completely impossible for me to accept that if (pre-heresy) the Emperor said 'Hey World Eaters, go take out the Thousand Sons' they would have declined. Night of the Wolf makes it plain as day, they wouldnt have blinked, wouldnt have cared, and in the end probably would have enjoyed the process.

 

@Kol, hilariously well pointed out.

Sorry for going so far back but the thread ran away without me.

 

The question is really could the World Eater have pulled it off. In Galaxy in Flames the World Eaters have a tough time (Angron being repelled multiple times) by a Emperor's Children. How well do you really think they would have done against the Thousand Son's defences. At one point in A Thousand Sons there is a mention of perfectly aligned defence not killing enough of the SW because of how they used cover. How well do you believe a bunch of nails lost bezerkers would do against that same defence. The World Eaters and Angron even had trouble against the power armored humans in False Gods. In Betrayer, if the Wolves would have been sent to execute Angron. He would be dead. Angron himself even states that Russ was not allowed to kill him. Not that the Wolves couldn't do it. Lorgar points out that Russ spared Angron even if Angron won the fight. Wade's quote "An execution is the murder of helpless prey. What you've committed to here, brother, is a fair fight!". Really falls flat when you look at the fact that Angron very shortly after saying it was at the Wolve's mercy.

 

True the World Eaters have the "Will" but have been shown to lack the ability to actually do the job. One on one the World Eaters are scary. However they are lacking when it becomes larger fights.

 

There are other Legions that are at least as good as the Wolves in some areas. But none that really match them in all areas of the job. Including the psychological after effects.

>

>

 

Wade~

"I really can't see Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists balking at a command like "Konrad's Legion needs to not exist anymore" either.

>

That really is an exception that proves the rule. Unless you believe that Dorn would be equally open to killing Sanguinius and the Blood Angels. For example.

 

And there we have it. So the Wolves ARE better, and can perform tasks that no other can. ;)

 

This is my point made manifest. The book has created a position, that is even arguable, and has been reinforced throughout the rest of the series.

 

If nobody else has a problem with that, thats fine. I simply think it adds nothing, detracts from the other Legions, and elevates one falsely above the rest.

Still no, bro. Considering how little you seem to like the idea of Space Wolves being master race, I find it incredibly strange that you keep pushing it as truth for no reason.

[Scribe]

Is that not what StoneRhino is saying though? I've had several...conversations...with StoneRhino, I know his opinion is backed by supporting quotes. I'm not pushing it as the truth, I'm pushing it as being presented as the truth.

 

I find even the claim to be offensive, and its reinforced with every mention of 'executioner' by a Wolf, Russ, Malcador, or Imperial Army grunt.

[Conn Eremon]

All StoneRhino said was that the usual styles of war that the World Eaters follow, to the detriment of all else, might make them ill-suited for censoring another Legion, regardless of their will. That isn't exaxtly wrong, but that says nothing about the Space Wolf superiority thing you always bring up.

 

Same for the Dorn point. Many Legions probably would balk at the task at some point. Fists censoring the Lords of Night? No prob. The Fists censoring the Ultramarines? Luna Wolves, before the Heresy? Does that mean the Fists are weaker then the Wolves, because they might not balk at the idea? :cuss no, it doesn't.

 

The thing that you keep bringing up, and saying if this, then this must be true, is that the 'executioner' thing means that the Wolves are better than other Legions. That is not true. It has been shown to not be true. But all because some fans want to see their chosen faction in a favorable light, it is a bad thing. Yes, some of them were annoying about it. But so what? Fan bias has nothing to do with the fluff, but that is what I keep seeing you connect together.

[Visitor13]

Orders are orders. No Primarch would refuse the Emperor's command to punish a brother. Most of them would find it distasteful, true, but they'd give it their best shot nevertheless. Some would probably relish the chance.

[Scribe]

Cormac: I'll have to come back to this with quotes later, to me, its pretty simple though.

 

If ones position is 'officially' to take out another, then it would make sense, that that person would be capable of doing such, reliably no? Does it not make sense that if a legion is put into a position of power (executioner implies a monopoly of violence, as a sanctioning force) that they can act on that position?

 

If they cannot, and cannot indeed follow through, doesnt it render the title meaningless in the first place, and if so, why continue it?

[DuskRaider]

And yet in most books, we see the VIth getting trounced left and right. They're definitely not any better than Legion X or Legion Y, honestly I think it's just something unique Dan Abnett came up with for the Wolves to set them apart from other tactical shock Legions, and it came back to bite him. Attempts to reign it in have thus far been unsuccessful.