Vengeful Spirit

[Scribe]

So just drop it, thats all I am saying.

 

1. We know objectively that man for man, they arent superior. To claim otherwise is fanboyism.

2. We know objectively that they didnt conquer more, faster, harder.

3. We know other legions by canon where just as terrifying, just as brutal, just as unhinged if not more so.

 

So whats the point?

[Conn Eremon]

It does make sense, if one follows the 'my dad can beat up your dad' logic.

 

Otherwise, :cuss no it doesn't. Especially when one considers that Russ' "role," as it were, does not involve acting independently, as shown in the fluff. Executioner status sanctioned? Given additional, superior and advantageous forces to see it through. Acting as 'executioner' all by themselves? Night of the Wolf.

 

And that is it. What do the Space Wolves need to be, in order to be reliable executioners? They need to at least be capable of being equal to the executed in terms of strength (in other words, Space Marines. Not Super Space Marines), they need to have the will to do the job (which the Wolves are not alone in having) and they need to be controllable in the action of it (which the Wolves might be alone in among those who would have the will). They don't need to be superior. The granting of the title does not come with additional power (if anything, fluff has shown that it strips them of it) over other Legions.

 

I mean, for the love of God, it would be like saying the Fists are superior because they are called the Praetorian Legion. Why be called such unless to mean that the Legion is capable of being such with reliability? Does it not make sense that if the Legion is in a position of power (praetorian implies a monopoly on hardness, as the only Legion worthy of protecting the Emperor and Terra) that they can act on that position?

 

But no complaints there? Why, because it's been around a bit longer, or you haven't been annoyed quite as much by the Fist fans?

[DuskRaider]

It'll just come up again in a month or so anyhow.

[Scribe]

It does make sense, if one follows the 'my dad can beat up your dad' logic.

Otherwise, no it doesn't. Especially when one considers that Russ' "role," as it were, does not involve acting independently, as shown in the fluff. Executioner status sanctioned? Given additional, superior and advantageous forces to see it through. Acting as 'executioner' all by themselves? Night of the Wolf.

And that is it. What do the Space Wolves need to be, in order to be reliable executioners? They need to at least be capable of being equal to the executed in terms of strength (in other words, Space Marines. Not Super Space Marines), they need to have the will to do the job (which the Wolves are not alone in having) and they need to be controllable in the action of it (which the Wolves might be alone in among those who would have the will). They don't need to be superior. The granting of the title does not come with additional power (if anything, fluff has shown that it strips them of it) over other Legions.

I mean, for the love of God, it would be like saying the Fists are superior because they are called the Praetorian Legion. Why be called such unless to mean that the Legion is capable of being such with reliability? Does it not make sense that if the Legion is in a position of power (praetorian implies a monopoly on hardness, as the only Legion worthy of protecting the Emperor and Terra) that they can act on that position?

But no complaints there? Why, because it's been around a bit longer, or you haven't been annoyed quite as much by the Fist fans?

Good point!

The difference is.

1. It doesnt come up in every bloody book.

2. It is not implemented at all on a personal level (See the Wolf in Vengeful Spirit and how he's the "Executioner" again if needed)

3. It doesnt step on anyone's toes, other than the Iron Warriors which is intended, factual, and has been canon since foooooooooooooooorever.

Wolves being super scary (as scary as Night Lords?) Wolves being super killy/brutal (more killy/brutal than World Eaters) Wolves going further than anyone else? these things where new at the time. That wasnt the wolves. They didnt need those attributes applied in comparison to other's when that was the 'thing' for the other Legions.

Its all in the presentation, and its just been wrong since day one, and not only wrong but now continued down the series.

I like your point about Russ when supported, leading a sanctioning force, or when not, in Night of the Wolf. Thats a great call out. However its dashed when you have the lone wolf in Vengeful Spirit thinking it about himself, or external parties commenting on how 'scary' the Wolves are.

I just cant get past it. Its like that Sigismund fan who cant accept Abby may kill him. I cant handle the Executioner garbage when its so liberally thrown around.

Wolves watching Sanguinius? Thank the 4 they found the end of Amits blades!

Wolves watching Rob? Ugh, that was the most painful dialogue in the book!

If I ever become independently wealthy I will buy Black Library and retcon the :cuss out of this...I just cant get past it, I'm sorry.

Truthfully, I'm sorry I brought it up and engaged on the topic, its a blind spot for me that I just cannot reconcile with the fluff, or the setting, at all.

[Conn Eremon]

I was going to reply again until I realized who you compared yourself against. That . . . was pretty much my whole point. That there is this fanboyism/anti-fanboyism mentality here that is preventing objective discourse on the matter, coloring the perception of this one, small thing and blowing it out of proportion.

 

But if you recognize that, then I can no longer fault you on it. Any more than I can fault the guy who recognizes that the Wolves are not shown as superior, but wants them to be superior and will continue to think of them as such. Then it just becomes preference of how one wants to think of the fluff and not a misrepresentation of it.

 

Remind me of this the next time it comes up, and hopefully we'll stop annoying the feth out of each other.

[Scribe]

Sometimes, I just need to fight with myself for awhile, thank you for your understanding during this difficult time. ;)

[b1soul]

 

 

Truthfully, I'm sorry I brought it up and engaged on the topic, its a blind spot for me that I just cannot reconcile with the fluff, or the setting, at all.

 

The concept isn't completely unworkable.

 

Tthe Wolves think of themselves as having the optimal balance of brutality and obedience/control. The Night Lords and World Eaters are incredibly brutal...but they have no control and their loyalty to the Emperor is questionable. When the Emperor tells Russ to jump, he responds with "How high?" The same couldn't be said for Angron or Curze. These two legions along with their primarchs are utterly out of control.

 

The "executioner" concept only fails when SW fans start insisting that it's proof that Space Wolves are the best

[Vesper]

I'll admit, I utterly fail to cach the point in having the space wolves depicted as "ze executioners supposed to deal with other legions" as it doesn't make any sense to me.

Any total clash between them and another legion would likely end up with the annihilation of both. Except if the legion they go after are the Ultramarines, Sons of Horus or Word Bearers, because then, the space wolves would probably end up getting slaughtered.

So what's the point in having them being called executioners by everyone and his mother if they simply can't deal with a legion on their own ?

 

EDIT : The actual executioner of the emperor's will is supposed to be Horus, as he has been named Warmaster. Kinda seems to be the whole point of being Warmaster.

[depthcharge12]

So I've skipped through the past 2 pages or so hoping the Wolves discussion would be done. Seems not. Can you guys just drop it and go your separate ways about it?

 

I'd like to hear more about this book. What direction is the heresy headed after this? Is there a large host of the Warmaster and legions, or are the traitors split up?

[Vesper]

And I'd like to know what's up with the Sons of Horus, what they do and all.

[DuskRaider]

At this point, has Horus even come face-to-face with the now Daemon Primarch Angron?

[Plague Angel]

Deliberately trying to muddy the clear difference between "executioner" and "executor" is silly when context has always been clear about which of the two words applies to the Wolves.

 

I don't see how Wolves-as-Executioner steps on the Iron Warriors at all. If the point of the Wolves is that they do the worst jobs and they do them without balking, well, the Iron Warriors balked. They balked very, very hard. But mostly I've never interpreted either Legion as doing the same type of job. The "worst" jobs in the case of the Wolves always had the connotation of the morally outrageous missions, the ones that would offend and shock. As discussed, that puts them up against the World Eaters and Night Lords in that category, but we've never seen the suggestion that the Iron Warriors are this sort of Legion too.

 

Whereas the idea that the Iron Warriors always got the "worst" jobs that no one else was willing to do and never got thanked for it, I always interpreted as them getting the mediocre, thankless jobs that are beneath the dignity of Legiones. You know, fixing microwaves and toilets, the sorts of jobs that get thrown to immigrants. And even though all the tasks being assigned to the IV are demeaning and insulting, they kept doing them anyways and stewing about it.

 

It's a difference in kind, and that both could be described as the "worst" missions doesn't mean that the Wolves have outdone the Iron Warriors at their own game. All the Legions get all manner of superlatives on them; all of them are the best at doing something... or they tie for it, and wind up being rivals about it, things that come to fore in the Heresy. But we can see Guilliman and Lionel share an eye-roll at Russ's attitude in Unremembered Empire, so that shows how the other Legions think of the executioner thing. A scene that was written by Dan Abnett.

 

By all accounts in-universe the objective best Legions are the Sons of Horus and the Ultramarines anyways. And if someone here makes a case that another Legion is "better," isn't all he saying in the end is that his preferred Legion is his preference?

[Stonerhino]

I guess I cant argue that it isnt said by others, as your quotes clearly illustrate StoneRhino, but does it add anything? Its still completely impossible for me to accept that if (pre-heresy) the Emperor said 'Hey World Eaters, go take out the Thousand Sons' they would have declined. Night of the Wolf makes it plain as day, they wouldnt have blinked, wouldnt have cared, and in the end probably would have enjoyed the process.

@Kol, hilariously well pointed out.

Sorry for going so far back but the thread ran away without me.

The question is really could the World Eater have pulled it off. In Galaxy in Flames the World Eaters have a tough time (Angron being repelled multiple times) by a Emperor's Children. How well do you really think they would have done against the Thousand Son's defences. At one point in A Thousand Sons there is a mention of perfectly aligned defence not killing enough of the SW because of how they used cover. How well do you believe a bunch of nails lost bezerkers would do against that same defence. The World Eaters and Angron even had trouble against the power armored humans in False Gods. In Betrayer, if the Wolves would have been sent to execute Angron. He would be dead. Angron himself even states that Russ was not allowed to kill him. Not that the Wolves couldn't do it. Lorgar points out that Russ spared Angron even if Angron won the fight. Wade's quote "An execution is the murder of helpless prey. What you've committed to here, brother, is a fair fight!". Really falls flat when you look at the fact that Angron very shortly after saying it was at the Wolve's mercy.

True the World Eaters have the "Will" but have been shown to lack the ability to actually do the job. One on one the World Eaters are scary. However they are lacking when it becomes larger fights.

There are other Legions that are at least as good as the Wolves in some areas. But none that really match them in all areas of the job. Including the psychological after effects.

>

Wade~

"I really can't see Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists balking at a command like "Konrad's Legion needs to not exist anymore" either.<

/p>

That really is an exception that proves the rule. Unless you believe that Dorn would be equally open to killing Sanguinius and the Blood Angels. For example.

And there we have it. So the Wolves ARE better, and can perform tasks that no other can.

This is my point made manifest. The book has created a position, that is even arguable, and has been reinforced throughout the rest of the series.

If nobody else has a problem with that, thats fine. I simply think it adds nothing, detracts from the other Legions, and elevates one falsely above the rest.

It is the "Falsely elevates" that is the point. If the Wolves are reconized sanctioned executioners, then a lot of their fluff makes. You take that away and you are really left with the Space Wolves are marines +1 maybe +2.

The Space Wolves get really special treatment in 40k and have been show to get much the same in 30k. The setting is way better off explaining this as the SWs are the best mix of talant, loyalty and controlability. Therefore used as "Executioner". Then if they get that treatment just because.

Try coming up with a better solution as to why the SWs are special and deserve their special treatment. Remember you can't just take their treatment away because it has been so established in the fluff.

As far as the SW>WE. That is not what I was saying. I was just pointing out that the World Eaters have been show to have problems fighting equal to near equal enemies on larger scales. The Legions are different and have different strengths. However you really can't argue that Angron did not hurt the War Hounds by installing the nails. It is a central theme of Betrayer. Even more so when you consider that the War Hounds were at one point used much the same as the Wolves are. If you are upset that the World Eaters are not the "Executioners" then you need to direct that anger at Angron. Without the negative effects of the nails we would be having a very different conversation.

[Tenebris]

Hmm... you DO realize that the only good Space Wolf is a dead Space Wolf, right?

 

If the dogs of Russ even made planetfall on Prospero is ONLY thanks to Magnus who did want to atone for his mistakes. Should he have used the full power of his legion than we would be looking at a third of the Space Wolf legion destroyed en route by the denizens of the Warp. And should the battered remains made it through the psychic storm they would be seared to dust by the pyrokinetics of the Thousand Sons while orbiting Prospero. Remember, the defensive stations around Prospero were mostly ordered to stay still and silent.

 

One thing it is amply clear in A Thousand Sons, the Space Wolves were no match for the Thousand Sons and only the unwillingness of Magnus allowed them to make planetfall on Prospero. Should the XVth act with its full might the Space Wolves would be no more in a few heartbeats and the daemons would have a nice dog feast. 

[DuskRaider]

Space Wolves are definitely not Astartes +1 or +2, hahaha... That's the funniest thing I've heard all day... Phew...

[Honda]

Let's keep it civil gentlemen.

[Vesper]

So, yeah, back to civily-civil stuff, can someone spoil me about anything Horus / Abaddon / Sons of Horus in that book ?

[Sevatar]

Indeed, I must agree with Dusk Raider here. Frequently the Wolves take heavy casualties. As a Blood Angels and admirer of the Iron Hands, I would really like them to win a few battles in the Heresy. Particularly, I would like them to hammer the Alpha Legion at Allaxes. 

 

Why? Because, so far, the Alpha Legion are a bit too good. They are one of the larger Legions, who have top tier equipment and supplies - they even replaced losses far quicker than the Traitors or Loyalists, as Extermination notes. They infiltrate the Raven Guard seamlessly (well, kind of) So, yeah, I don't want a pyhrric victory like Prospero - I would like to see the Alpha Legion get stamped on like a snake...hahaha..ha.

 

Oh, and the Scars are awesome. I really hope Forge World represents him as the motherfether he is. A savage, yet incredibly consummate idealist. E.g like Fulgrim, but better lol. I hope the savagery and cunning of the White Scars is represented well, too.

 

Whoops. Wrong thread. Sorry.

[Conn Eremon]

So, yeah, back to civily-civil stuff, can someone spoil me about anything Horus / Abaddon / Sons of Horus in that book ?

I liked the Mournival's depiction.

 

 

It is still effective and useful in its intended purpose, but a shadow of its former self. The brotherhood is now strained and tense, in some moments almost debilitatingly so. The sense of equality is pretty much gone. I think deliberately so. The two new brothers are junior officers, lesser captain and a sergeant. I feel this divide was intentional, in light of the still recent "betrayal" of those who refused to follow the Warmaster's vision.

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Abaddon gets zapped and burnt alive from the inside out. Horus walks through an evil door and ages thousands of years. Loken is given a chance to rejoin Horus and chooses to throw himself into space. Falkus Kibre is actually intelligent. Grael Noctua loses heart.

 

 

Throw in a sprinkling of naughty slaanesh worshippers, some random Mechanicum, and the Red Shirt Imperator and it follows the standard Graham McNeill formula of a really long beginning and a scattered climax.

[Vesper]

Need more details on Falkus Kibre.

He's part of Abaddon's cool dudes, by 40k, so he interests me. What's the thing about him in the book ?

[Conn Eremon]

Blunt instrument who likes the simplicity of war, but is fully capable of comprehending its labyrinthine intricacies when called to do so.

 

Basically, exactly who you would expect of someone Abaddon would put in charge of the Justaerin.

 

Horus admits he was pleased by his ascension to the Mournival, and notes that he is ambitious enough to want Abaddon's rank.

 

Edit: What is he in 40k?

[Vesper]

He's the leader of Abaddon's terminator bodyguard (as per Soul Hunter).

He may have been many other things in the Eye, but that's what he does in 40k.

[Sevatar]

Interesting. Are the Ultramarines just cannon fodder, or do they contribute actively ?

Red Shirt Imperator. Don't say another dies. .. :( I actually want to  Imperators kill things, not being harpoonedd, of all things, or betrayed in this book probably :(

[Conn Eremon]

Well, then apparently he did get Abaddon's job