Conn Eremon Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Finished it this morning. It was definitely one of the better McNeil books, and vastly better than Angel Exterminatus. But I can't help but think that it would have improved itself if it hadn't tried to tie in the Knights Errant. They were incredibly out of place, and did little more than make for awkward pauses in the actual storyline to show off some even more awkward characters, like the Sheldon-but-dumber Iron Warrior or the "I can out-bluster anybody!" Space Wolf, and especially the "Hell, I don't even know why I'm still alive" Loken. I think that would have been better placed as something separate, a short story or audio, rather than tied in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Fully agreed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veteran Sergeant Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 I feel like this novel is going to appeal to a lot of people. And I have to give it to McNeill for no improbably primarch fist fights, but it is pretty much just an endless warporn with no substance and a bafflingly high casualty rate for the Sons of Horus which begs the question of how Space Marine Legions could endure protracted warfare. It has some sadomasochism and incest subplots, a heavy-handed product tie in to the new Knights, then an amusingly apologetic Horus, as well as the improbably escapes of protagonists so they can fight another day. But again, if you're just going to read it and go along for the ride, it certainly has decent pacing (or maybe I just skipped parts I didn't care about?) and the action never stops once it gets going. McNeill kills so many people in this book, you can really tell at which points he was struggling to find new ways to describe blood being spilled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Finished it this morning. It was definitely one of the better McNeil books, and vastly better than Angel Exterminatus. But I can't help but think that it would have improved itself if it hadn't tried to tie in the Knights Errant. They were incredibly out of place, and did little more than make for awkward pauses in the actual storyline to show off some even more awkward characters, like the Sheldon-but-dumber Iron Warrior or the "I can out-bluster anybody!" Space Wolf, and especially the "Hell, I don't even know why I'm still alive" Loken. I think that would have been better placed as something separate, a short story or audio, rather than tied in. Yes. If that stuff had been dropped, and it had all be SoH and Molech, it would have been at least approaching levels of Mechanicum. A tighter, cleaner book for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Aside from Loken being alive, I highly enjoyed the book. Then again, I thought he was ruined as a character when his return from the dead robbed him of his heroic death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clone Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I enjoyed the book for its descriptions of Knight combat, even if it felt sometimes like product placement for the new toy. I also found that I respected Horus a lot more and it was nice that he's not the big bad chaos mutated guy yet. The emperor stealing power/knowledge from the Gods was something that I felt fit really well. I originally didn't like the idea and had dismissed it as chaos lies but I've come round to it now. The side effect of that is the emperor is now less of this unfathomable being with unknowable thought processes, and more of a deceiving tyrant. "Death to the false emperor" rings more true now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I enjoyed the book for its descriptions of Knight combat, even if it felt sometimes like product placement for the new toy. I also found that I respected Horus a lot more and it was nice that he's not the big bad chaos mutated guy yet. The emperor stealing power/knowledge from the Gods was something that I felt fit really well. I originally didn't like the idea and had dismissed it as chaos lies but I've come round to it now. The side effect of that is the emperor is now less of this unfathomable being with unknowable thought processes, and more of a deceiving tyrant. "Death to the false emperor" rings more true now. Can't really judge a guy for stealing from the Chaos Gods though. I get what you mean that some of his "all-powerful" mystique is stripped from him, but he's still got a few tricks up his sleeves I'm sure. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Veteran Sergeant gets books. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Other than A Thousand Sons, has McNeill ever given us a good book? Outcast Dead and Angel Exterminatus were...disappointing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Other than A Thousand Sons, has McNeill ever given us a good book? Outcast Dead and Angel Exterminatus were...disappointing Storm of Iron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674942 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I believe he is referring to the Horus Heresy series. and frankly, as much of a uber geek as I am, ALOT of the HH series has been a dud. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3674972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 A D-B doesn't hate Space Wolves, he just hates Space Wolves fans God, it was bad enough when a handful of people genuinely believed that, with zero evidence and against all sense. Don't even joke. I can name 3 Space Wolf fans I dislike, but that's because they're contrary and uninformed souls that insist things against all rational argument and common sense, not because they're Space Wolf fans. Poor Simon Grant.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 timestamp="1399266190"] Other than A Thousand Sons, has McNeill ever given us a good book? Outcast Dead and Angel Exterminatus were...disappointing Fulgrim, Mechanicum, and Storm of Iron. And I thought AE was good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinholt Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 ). That's for ADB, who left a parenthesis open earlier and thus the entire thread from that point until now has been an aside. Ah, the fickle winds of fate grammar (and/or the fact that I was a math major back in the day and notice these things). Second, I think anyone saying McNeill has only written one good book in the HH is selling him vastly short. Fulgrim and Mechanicum were both very good. I feel like the big problem for the Heresy was that it kind of lost the plot for a while (either the DA arc, which I very much dislike, or some of the asides like Nemesis that don't really develop things, even if they might be individually good). I feel like First Heretic kind of dragged things back on track and set the stage for "act II" progressing through Calth, and I feel like Vengeful Spirit continued with that arc. It's not perfect, but no book is. I think there was a lot in there that added to the Heresy, and I was very impressed with some of the characterization and depth to the SoH in particular. Horus Aximand is much more interesting than I expected. My opinion on him has really done an about face. ... ... I'll go now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Lord above, am I the only soul on this planet that thought McNeil did a great job on A Thousand Sons? His flair for the dramatic and love of showy fights actually fit the XV Legion well, in my opinion. C'est La Vie. Guess I'll just have to read VS to find out how I feel about it. I'm still a bit gun-shy after AE... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 A Thousand Sons was awesome, I have to assume that was not mentioned by mistake as its often in 'one of the best' type lists for the HH. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675622 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 As far as Graham's Heresy work, I liked A Thousand Sons, and I liked Angel Exterminatus (Perturabo, Kroeger, and The Best Iron Hand Ever salvaged things from the damage caused by Goofball Plot and Sharrowkyn, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!). Fulgrim was a major let down to me, though. "Primarch Rennly Baratheon finds a magical sword that turns him into Primarch Ramsey Snow. In Space. And not one single thing of value was lost." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675720 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I really liked Fulgrim except for the sword shenanigans and how Ferrus was depicted sometimes. The rest of the book was fantastic though IMHO. I liked the battles on Laer, Saul Tarvitz, Vespasian, and the other captain. I liked the crazy scene of La Fenice and the portrayal of the degradation of the EC. AE was good for like 2 chapters...that's about it. It's been a long time since I've read TS, but I remember loving the book and desperately wanting to create a Heresy force of them in their red armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Personally liked Fulgrim better than Angel Exterminatus, but Thousand Sons was hands-down the best McNeil book I have so far read. I haven't gotten around to Storm of Iron yet, which is greatly lauded still. But admittedly, I read Fulgrim before joining the B&C, and I didn't really come to dislike Graham McNeil until I did. Mixture of my own growing awareness of the wider 30/40k setting and the influence of members pointing out things that couldn't be unseen. Not saying there's an anti-McNeil bandwagon here on the B&C that I hopped on first chance, but that the forum did have an impact on my outlook on certain authors, including AD-B. Maybe I'm being unfair. Most of my dislike for Graham McNeil came from my realization that the Ultramarines were actually kind of awesome, but that he and Ward were whispering sweet nothings into their ears while tag-teaming them in the octagon. And that was worthy of dislike. A lot of dislike. Gav and Goto were terrible before and after, though. But, I really did like one aspect of Vengeful Spirit Horus as the monster. The dictator. The terrible, malevolent, murderous, Darth Lupercal evilness that he has become. And he doesn't even realize it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I liked Thousand Sons, I seemed to recall liked it more than Prospero Burns I think or was it the other way around... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 i think i need to keep my eyes open for A Thousand Sons the next time i'm going to the capital. Tzeentch knows it can't be worse than Angel Exterminatus... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Taste is a weird, subjective thing. I thought Fulgrim was all that bad. Even pretty enjoyable, actually.A Thousand Sons has the distinction of being the only Black Library novel that I disliked enough to stop reading it and put it in a drawer somewhere. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Taste is a weird, subjective thing. I thought Fulgrim was all that bad. Even pretty enjoyable, actually. A Thousand Sons has the distinction of being the only Black Library novel that I disliked enough to stop reading it and put it in a drawer somewhere. Yeah, well, I subjectively think you're weird for having that subjectively weird taste. So there. But seriously, I'm curious about what it was that made A Thousand Sons so bad, in comparison. Personally, I felt the pacing was poor, but that it did well enough outside of that to be enjoyable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I found A Thousand Sons so disappointing because I wanted a real convincing reason for the actions of the Thousand Sons, and a non-rambling point of view of Nikea. I got neither. Nikea was a complete let down, and other than the Thousand Sons' actions on Prospero establishing they were too far gone, the rest was blah for me. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 The pacing was poor, none of the characters were interesting or appealing, the dialogue was outright annoying. And oh god, those remembrancers. If cool stuff happens on page 200, and everything before that is drudgery, I'm going to stop caring before that point. I read, roughly, 100 pages an hour. After sitting and trying to read ATS for 3 hours, I was about eighty pages in. It was just a chore. It was also years ago, so I can't be very specific. I just remember not liking it. The lore behind the battle is interesting enough, so I'm sure I'll finish it some day. But I didn't find McNeill's voice to gel very well with it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/21/#findComment-3675876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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