Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Trust me, I plan on picking it up once the mass release occurs, but anything with Thorpe or McNeil on it fills me with dread. I think McNeil peaked with Storm of Iron. everything since has been "Oh cool, so that happened. Next" WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3691871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I dont think it was bad enough to be he first to skip. Hardly even close to that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3691873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 ... he also had the chance to have his Uriel Ventris character vindicated by having Guilliman himself state that the Codex is sometimes wrong and should not be so strictly adhered to. I dont begrudge anyone the right to criticize a product they purchased with their money. That having been said, what you're lamenting right now was McNeil pointing out that, ten thousand years before Uriel Ventris, Roboute Guilliman had approached the process of writing his Codex with common sense. The line "a world of Ultramar burned" delivers another sting in retrospect. At least Ultramar apparently was still the same old nine worlds at this point, and only one world (Calth) had suffered under the attack of the Word Bearers. But then Abnett would retcon it into five hundred worlds in 'Know No Fear', and a hundred more worlds would burn under the attack. That could very well be the case. Or it could just be Guilliman lamenting Calth in particular. My biggest beed with Vengeful Spirit was that, once more, so much depends on forced drama. As I'm sure others have pointed out, I'm frustrated by the idea that the Emperor would leave a guardian behind for the express purpose of watching the ... ... Gateway to Getting Godlike Powers ... ... and to destroy it, if need be, but said guardian would be, like, I don't know, a significant distance away from it. I'm also frustrated by the awkward way Malcador's Knights Errant were inserted into the plot. Ditto for the Blood Angels and the Ultramarines, whose seemingly purposeful introduction peters off to non-involvement (with the exception of the XIIIth's use as admirable foes in the climactic battle against Aximand) and an exit that in neither case impacts the story. And by the way showcasing the Knights was so important, but making them meaningful to the plot was not. Am I alone in seeing Raeven's plot hook as forgettable? The point I almost gave up on Vengeful Spirit was when ... ... Grulgor was used as the walking Life Eater virus and took out an impassable wilderness the size of a nation, so that the Death Guard to drive through it. If an Amazing Moment requires the reader to suspend common sense questions (like: "Why didn't the Death Guard simply land their forces on the other side of the wilderness to begin with? The Death Guard clearly had the resources to land their forces planet-side, so why not do so where they actually wanted to go? It's not as if the defending forces there were anything mentioning.), then it's really not that Amazing. But the worst part of Vengeful Spirit, in my humble opinion, is that for every bad part there is a good part. I have to reconcile the above complaints with the fact that Little Horus Aximand and Grail Noctua are written quite well. Horus's initial assault and the climactic battle (especially from Aximand and Abaddon's perspective) are some of the better combat material I've seen in this series. Yeah, there are some things that will always bug me (e.g., the idea that gunships have to fly within a few hundred meters of their targets, artillery that is only fired when the enemy is within a kilometer, etc.), but the good outweighs the bad here. Vengeful Spirit isn't a bad novel. It's disappointingly put together. I didn't regret reading it; I regretted not reading the novel Graham could have written. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3691888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I dont think it was bad enough to be he first to skip. Hardly even close to that. Don't get me wrong. I though a Thousand Sons was stunning. The legion fits his writing style so well, it was ridiculous. I was like, "Ok, so he had a Harry Turtledove moment... A few shady books, but he got his rhythm now. Righteous." And then I read Angel Exterminatus. And it felt like McNeil did this to my Ironclad heart... http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/1839857/metalocalypse-o.gif Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3691916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Just finished the book last night. Here are some of my thoughts... I think GM overstretched himself. The fault is not entirely his - by this point, the HH series has so many subplots (even within the same Legion/organization) that any author would have a hard time not stretching a single book too thin. That being said, the book is still an enjoyable read. Not on the level of Horus Rising or Betrayer, but still good. The Slaanesh-corrupted House Devin was fascinating to read about. I certainly did not see the twist in the end, that the decadent and scheming Raeven (in all his creepy twincest glory, yuck) was the one to ultimately resist Daemon-Fulgrim's allure. The battles were well-written. Reading about Mortarion bring down a Fire Raptor with his scythe was thrilling, and it was interesting to see that his stance on entreating with the Warp is changing. The fact that it was Mortarion who slew his bodyguards to bring back Grulgor does not bother me - remember, this was after his duel with the Khan and his views might have shifted. Grulgor's role as a glorified gardener was... less than impressive. I find the mental image of Grulgor clamoring out of his beat-up Rhino, coughing on the local wildlife, getting back in, and driving a hundred miles down the trail to repeat the performance highly amusing. Overall, a solid 7/10. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 What was so bad about Angel Exterminatus ? It was in my opinion a good book in the HH series. The only McNeill book that i did'nt like was Mechanicum Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692376 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Sub-par story, OP Raven Guard Traitor-Slayer, a deaf Marine who was magically immune from sonic vibrations because he was deaf, the "achievement" of making the Iron Warriors sound like a really tiny Legion by every single character except two being recycled 40K characters, the list can go on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevatar Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I haven't read it for song time, but why is Sharrowkyn op? It isn't unusual to find exceptional people within a Legion of 80000, and figures like Khârn, Corswain, Sigismund, Yesugei, Sevatar are as good, if not better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I really liked Angel Exterminatus, but the whole deaf marine being immune to noise marines was stupid... Also, could a marine even be deaf? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692393 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 It is impossible for a marine to lose his balance, but possible for him to be deaf. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Didn't it say his lyman'sear got destroyed or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692406 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I haven't read it for song time, but why is Sharrowkyn op? It isn't unusual to find exceptional people within a Legion of 80000, and figures like Khârn, Corswain, Sigismund, Yesugei, Sevatar are as good, if not better.When a Marine is explicitly classified within the novel as being the average of the Legion but goes on to not only beat, but kill a character that had long since been established as "unbeatable" and "unkillable" until a certain point in the fluff with minimum effort as well as being a one man army who didn't even get injured, something none of the other Loyalists or the Traitors get to say, well if it was a Traitor, he'd be classified as a Mary Sue.Didn't it say his lyman'sear got destroyed or something.His inner ear drum was destroyed. Which is the part of the ear that translates sonic vibrations into sounds interpreted by our brain. Without it, we can feel the sonic vibrations, but we have no way of interpreting what they are without some sort of other identifier, such as sight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Don't forget how Nykona no-sold Lucius's immortality curse with a simple statement of "No, warrior whose skill I have gushed over and whom I have sought out twice to have epic Highlander swordfights with, I totes feel no satisfaction at all in defeating you!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Nah this was before Lucius's immortality curse I believe, as Fabius had to bring him back Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I don't think Fabius brought him back, Fulgrim dropped him in Fabius lab and the next we see of him Fabius is fighting off the experimented on Imperial Fists whilst Lucius simply recovers all of his own accord. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Yeah, the first thing Lucius sees is Fabius going "But you were dead when I brought you in here." You don't do that if you just resuscitated them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692481 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Oh, maybe. I'll have to reread it then. I'm pretty sure it's before the whole slaanesh curse thing though. Ah okay. I must have missed that bit, I have a tendency to skip read and often have to reread books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 There is something else, before the Slaanesh curse thing. He was undefeated until his death at the hands of a fellow EC, post heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692489 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Oh, maybe. I'll have to reread it then. I'm pretty sure it's before the whole slaanesh curse thing though. Ah okay. I must have missed that bit, I have a tendency to skip read and often have to reread books. It is before the whole curse thing. The same curse thing that was supposed to start with Lucius' first death, which was supposed to happen after the Heresy, when he died at the hands of a fellow EC in the arena on Fulgrim's daemon-world. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692498 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Ah okay, a total retcon then. I don't know much old heresy fluff, I only got into the heresy around when First Heretic came out Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 I haven't read it for song time, but why is Sharrowkyn op? It isn't unusual to find exceptional people within a Legion of 80000, and figures like Khârn, Corswain, Sigismund, Yesugei, Sevatar are as good, if not better. To add to what the others offered, other "top-shelf" characters are more nuanced. Sevatar, for instance, is a remarkable fighter, but he's also a psychopath trying to ... ... suppress his psyker abilities. Lucius is a sublime swordsman, but is arrogant, cocky, and not a very multifaceted combatant - his repertoire doesn't work well against "cheaters" who brawl or grapple. Sharrowkyn is an amazing sniper, is an amazing swordsman, is amazing at sneaking around, has supernatural powers, is cool as ice, and so on and so forth. He brings nothing to the table other than his skill-set. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 A skillset that involves fighting with swords that just happens to better than the sword skills of the unbeatable swordsman who manages to lose in every novel he's appeared in..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 A skillset that involves fighting with swords that just happens to better than the sword skills of the unbeatable swordsman who manages to lose in every novel he's appeared in..... And being a mystical ninja. You cannot forget that this is a ninja running around in power armour, with a jetpack. Ninja... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Meh. He's just a Sahaal wannabe. Wraith slip? Try "Jump out of an air vent and stealth kill people while wearing power armor, a jet pack, AND Lightning Claws". The day Sharrowkyn can do that, then the little bird can call himself a ninja. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Thats not even fair though, thats so long ago, its a different canon! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287439-vengeful-spirit/page/23/#findComment-3692985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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