Vengeful Spirit

[Kol Saresk]

Meh.

 

He's just a Sahaal wannabe. Wraith slip? Try "Jump out of an air vent and stealth kill people while wearing power armor, a jet pack, AND Lightning Claws". The day Sharrowkyn can do that, then the little bird can call himself a ninja.

Don't forget making his jump pack noiseless and the flame exhaust invisible.

[Clone]

 

 

Meh.

 

He's just a Sahaal wannabe. Wraith slip? Try "Jump out of an air vent and stealth kill people while wearing power armor, a jet pack, AND Lightning Claws". The day Sharrowkyn can do that, then the little bird can call himself a ninja.

Don't forget making his jump pack noiseless and the flame exhaust invisible.

All he needs to do is roll a 1 on a dangerous terrain test...

[Hyaenidae]

Back on topic, Ladies and Gentlemen.

 

=][=

[b1soul]

To add to what the others offered, other "top-shelf" characters are more nuanced.  Sevatar, for instance, is a remarkable fighter, but he's also a psychopath trying to ...

 

 

... suppress his psyker abilities.

 

 

 

Those psyker abilities still help him a lot though...imagine if he embraces them

 

[Phoebus]

No doubt.  Nuance and depth don't always have to translate to a handicap, though.  But even if the spoiler item somehow did imbalance the character (making him too good), doesn't Sevatar's personality ultimately balance things out?  Isn't what makes him interesting the fact that, despite being kind of a sociopath/a seemingly unrepentant murderer, he combines a refreshing honesty with a sharp wit?

 

Lucius isn't meant to be liked.  We're not meant to like the fact that he's brash, arrogant, and condescending.  He's an antagonist.  He's a jerk.  He's a sublimely great swordsman who is succumbing to nihilism.  He's fallible:  he's prone to underestimate opponents, and doesn't even consider the possibility of losing.  He's not a perfect character, but he's not one-dimensional, either.

Sharrowkyn, as of right now, doesn't really have anything going for him other than that he's easily one of the deadliest Space Marines seen thus far.

[b1soul]

Phoebus, on 21 May 2014 - 10:26, said:

No doubt. Nuance and depth don't always have to translate to a handicap, though. But even if the spoiler item somehow did imbalance the character (making him too good), doesn't Sevatar's personality ultimately balance things out?

 

I'm not obsessed with having an artificial "balance" imposed on the setting. If ADB had made Sevatar even more awesome than he actually had, I'd be fine with that as long as it made sense and didn't break established fluff. I'd be annoyed if he made Sevatar superior to Sigismund at bladework...but I'm fine with the idea that the greatest champions of each legion are all in the same "weight class", i.e. each is a legit threat to any other. This is realistic as being the slight favourite in a match-up doesn't mean you can't lose to your opponent. To me, Sigismund has always been the best followed closely by other heavy-hitters.  

 

If Sevatar is ridiculously good in part because he's a "repressed psyker", then so be it. Psyker powers are good in 40K. Not slightly helpful but massively helpful. That's the lure of the Warp. I'd pick Ahriman over Sigismund any day. Psyker powers > skill with a blade. In Sevatar's case, his repressed psyker powers augment his already impressive skill with a blade. If he had been tapped by the NL librarius, perhaps he would've become a top-tier librarian. It's rather obvious that ADB likes the character a lot...but he's not overpowered or anything like that. He's the best of his legion and it shows. What's more, ADB has built up the character enough that we're all anticipating potential duels with loyalist heavy-hitters

 

[A D-B]

 

To add to what the others offered, other "top-shelf" characters are more nuanced.  Sevatar, for instance, is a remarkable fighter, but he's also a psychopath trying to ...

 

 

... suppress his psyker abilities.

 

 

 

Those psyker abilities still help him a lot though...imagine if he embraces them

 

 

They'd probably kill him if he embraced them this late, untrained, in his life.

 

Don't consider it "artificial balance". Good characters simply have flaws. Sev repressing his psychic ability is a mixed bag, as his power makes him a better fighter (a long established deal for plenty of psychic powers in the setting), but as many people have picked up on, he's also losing control of it - and that's the most common way psykers in 40K die. He has other issues - other merits and other flaws - but that one does seem to be one of the more obvious ones, yeah.

 

One thing I'm really looking forward to getting to show is how Sevatar actually fights in the Crusade/Heresy-style pitched battles that the Legions did so much of. It's pretty unique among First Captains, and not always in a good way. Good for victory, sure. Not good for much else.

[Stonerhino]

That "Pitched battle" doesn't happen to happen on Sotha...  Does it???

[Theis]

 

 

To add to what the others offered, other "top-shelf" characters are more nuanced.  Sevatar, for instance, is a remarkable fighter, but he's also a psychopath trying to ...

 

 

... suppress his psyker abilities.

 

 

 

Those psyker abilities still help him a lot though...imagine if he embraces them

 

 

They'd probably kill him if he embraced them this late, untrained, in his life.

 

Don't consider it "artificial balance". Good characters simply have flaws. Sev repressing his psychic ability is a mixed bag, as his power makes him a better fighter (a long established deal for plenty of psychic powers in the setting), but as many people have picked up on, he's also losing control of it - and that's the most common way psykers in 40K die. He has other issues - other merits and other flaws - but that one does seem to be one of the more obvious ones, yeah.

 

One thing I'm really looking forward to getting to show is how Sevatar actually fights in the Crusade/Heresy-style pitched battles that the Legions did so much of. It's pretty unique among First Captains, and not always in a good way. Good for victory, sure. Not good for much else.

 

 

What I find myself most curious regarding is, why had he chosen not to embrace them originally?  From what I'm remembering, he seemed to be at least partially in touch with his powers when young, hence the whole crows thing. His latent potential is obviously known to his primarch, and I suspect the librarius of the legion. So, knowing what we know of psykers in the setting, what happened? Something traumatic occur that caused him to repress them so thoroughly that the other psykers around him thought, "yeah, no harm in letting the situation persist?" The process of becoming an astartes was enough by itself? 

 

I think he was probably more in touch with his power at some point in the past. He penetrated his primarch's mind well enough that he was able to reach the Night Haunter in a coma. He seemed, if not adept, at least competent enough to make the attempt. That speaks of some familiarity with his capabilities, some training possibly? That he was reluctant to, un-repress them, so to speak, seemed like more than just self preservation at work there. Perhaps I'm just reading too much  into it. 

 

Hopefully I'm not, and the cause might get a paragraph or two someday.

[Kais Klip]

Because Sevatar is insecure. Attitude that screams acted is evidence of that. He's insecure not only with himself, but with his legion. That, combined with the fact that psykers are 'freaks' as any other mutants/magi in many settings should explain his reluctance to fully embrace it.

 

Reading his fight against the Dark Angels just before he passes out you can see he isn't that comfortable with his fighting prowess either.

 

He's a Night Lord; they're all broken, and people need to remember that being broken is a bad thing, no matter that 'all the perfect ones are dead.'

 

I mean, look at the size of his polearm. He's clearly compensating.

[Perrin]

On topic, finally finished Vengeful Spirit last night! I enjoyed it, though I do wonder how I would have felt if I hadn't read the entire plot on here first. My gut feeling is that I'd have enjoyed it a lot more, but who knows. Next release I'll try my hardest to not read the spoilers

Not sure if spoiler tags are needed, seeing as this is a thread about the book, so I'm going to leave them out. Spoilers to follow from the end of VS:

I think I may have a theory about where Loken and his Merry Men are going to next. Qruze's Oath of Moment from Keeler said only "Murder" on it, and a couple of pages after it is revealed, the Murder campaign is mentioned by Horus talking about leading from the front. Foreshadowing anyone? I think they will follow Keeler's message to Murder and maybe discover something there that they can use against daemons or Horus. I'd like to think they meet some survivors of the Interex. Didn't one of the authors say before that we hadn't seen the last of them?

Of course seeing as we know how the story ends whatever they find (if this does happen) can't be of any real help to anyone without being a massive retcon.

[Frosco Toppings]

 

Back on topic, Ladies and Gentlemen.

 

=][=

 

 

Can't you just delete the off topic stuff? Especially the pages of tedious wolves-as-executioner stuff I've had to sift through to get to the Vengeful Spirit stuff

[Relict]

On topic, finally finished Vengeful Spirit last night! I enjoyed it, though I do wonder how I would have felt if I hadn't read the entire plot on here first. My gut feeling is that I'd have enjoyed it a lot more, but who knows. Next release I'll try my hardest to not read the spoilers

Not sure if spoiler tags are needed, seeing as this is a thread about the book, so I'm going to leave them out. Spoilers to follow from the end of VS:

I think I may have a theory about where Loken and his Merry Men are going to next. Qruze's Oath of Moment from Keeler said only "Murder" on it, and a couple of pages after it is revealed, the Murder campaign is mentioned by Horus talking about leading from the front. Foreshadowing anyone? I think they will follow Keeler's message to Murder and maybe discover something there that they can use against daemons or Horus. I'd like to think they meet some survivors of the Interex. Didn't one of the authors say before that we hadn't seen the last of them?

Of course seeing as we know how the story ends whatever they find (if this does happen) can't be of any real help to anyone without being a massive retcon.

I have a nagging feeling that we haven't seen the last of Saul Tarvitz, either.

Remember, we didn't actually witness his death. Lucius mentioned in Fulgrim that he believed Ancient Rylanor (the Loyalist EC Contemptor Dreadnought) was last seen disappearing underground, with rumors pointing to him guarding some underground hanger.

If Loken could survive Isstvan III, so could Tarvitz. The "Murder" reference may be to him, since that campaign was where he met Loken.

[Vesper]

On topic, finally finished Vengeful Spirit last night! I enjoyed it, though I do wonder how I would have felt if I hadn't read the entire plot on here first. My gut feeling is that I'd have enjoyed it a lot more, but who knows. Next release I'll try my hardest to not read the spoilers

Not sure if spoiler tags are needed, seeing as this is a thread about the book, so I'm going to leave them out. Spoilers to follow from the end of VS:

I think I may have a theory about where Loken and his Merry Men are going to next. Qruze's Oath of Moment from Keeler said only "Murder" on it, and a couple of pages after it is revealed, the Murder campaign is mentioned by Horus talking about leading from the front. Foreshadowing anyone? I think they will follow Keeler's message to Murder and maybe discover something there that they can use against daemons or Horus. I'd like to think they meet some survivors of the Interex. Didn't one of the authors say before that we hadn't seen the last of them?

Of course seeing as we know how the story ends whatever they find (if this does happen) can't be of any real help to anyone without being a massive retcon.

I have a nagging feeling that we haven't seen the last of Saul Tarvitz, either.

Remember, we didn't actually witness his death. Lucius mentioned in Fulgrim that he believed Ancient Rylanor (the Loyalist EC Contemptor Dreadnought) was last seen disappearing underground, with rumors pointing to him guarding some underground hanger.

If Loken could survive Isstvan III, so could Tarvitz. The "Murder" reference may be to him, since that campaign was where he met Loken.

Actually, every loyalist survived Istvaan III.

Truth is, the Lost Legions are rumoured to be in the planet's underground. Can't wait to hear more about them !

[Relict]

I didn't say that I want to see Tarvitz or any other Isstvan III Loyalists brought back in some ridiculous deus ex machina... I merely pointed out a possibility (although one I don't want to see come to pass). So no need to be snide about it.

[Wade Garrett]

In hindsight, having the final orbital bombardment consist of Maloghurst standing in Vengeful Spirit's hangar bay pointing at Isstvan III's surface and making "Pew pew!" noises, while hilarious, was a bad call.

[Perrin]

On topic, finally finished Vengeful Spirit last night! I enjoyed it, though I do wonder how I would have felt if I hadn't read the entire plot on here first. My gut feeling is that I'd have enjoyed it a lot more, but who knows. Next release I'll try my hardest to not read the spoilers

Not sure if spoiler tags are needed, seeing as this is a thread about the book, so I'm going to leave them out. Spoilers to follow from the end of VS:

I think I may have a theory about where Loken and his Merry Men are going to next. Qruze's Oath of Moment from Keeler said only "Murder" on it, and a couple of pages after it is revealed, the Murder campaign is mentioned by Horus talking about leading from the front. Foreshadowing anyone? I think they will follow Keeler's message to Murder and maybe discover something there that they can use against daemons or Horus. I'd like to think they meet some survivors of the Interex. Didn't one of the authors say before that we hadn't seen the last of them?

Of course seeing as we know how the story ends whatever they find (if this does happen) can't be of any real help to anyone without being a massive retcon.

I have a nagging feeling that we haven't seen the last of Saul Tarvitz, either.

Remember, we didn't actually witness his death. Lucius mentioned in Fulgrim that he believed Ancient Rylanor (the Loyalist EC Contemptor Dreadnought) was last seen disappearing underground, with rumors pointing to him guarding some underground hanger.

If Loken could survive Isstvan III, so could Tarvitz. The "Murder" reference may be to him, since that campaign was where he met Loken.

Not sure about Tarvitz, but Ancient Rylanor definitely has to make a reappearance.

I've also heard a forum rumour somewhere (maybe Warseer?) about Iron Hands going back to Istvaan and digging something up there. It was literally one sentence with no source or further discussion, so take that with a hell of a lot of salt.

[Wade Garrett]

FERRUS LIVES!

 

FERRUS LIVES!

[Relict]

Oh good God, please don't let BL bring Ferrus Manus back by having his sons recovering his headless body and grafting a cyborg head on it...

[Conn Eremon]

I don't think BL could handle Ferrus Manus' revival any worse than GW already has the state of his soul.

[Augustus]

I don't think BL could handle Ferrus Manus' revival any worse than GW already has the state of his soul.

Care to elaborate? I'm stick in Heresy World and haven't read much on that "other" game

[Wade Garrett]

 

I don't think BL could handle Ferrus Manus' revival any worse than GW already has the state of his soul.

Care to elaborate? I'm stick in Heresy World and haven't read much on that "other" game

Look at your Primarch. Now look at me. Now back at your Primarch. He's a Keeper of Secrets.

 

What is he doing? He's tempting his Legion to be more cybernetic and emotionless.

 

Anything is possible when Matt Ward writes your fluff.

[Perrin]

I don't think BL could handle Ferrus Manus' revival any worse than GW already has the state of his soul.

Care to elaborate? I'm stick in Heresy World and haven't read much on that "other" game

Apparently, haven't read the actual source material, when Ferrus Manus died his spirit become a greater daemon called the Sapphire King. The Sapphire King coincidently seems to hate the Iron Hands and wants to destroy them, or at least tempt them into Chaos.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Wade

[Sons of Horus]

They did what?! Aw, poor Ferrus... err, I meant poor 30/40k :(

[Demus Ragnok]

They did what?! Aw, poor Ferrus... err, I meant poor 30/40k :(

Aw poor GW "development team" they were obviously picked on so much as children that they are now passive aggressive as adults.