Vengeful Spirit

[Perrin]

 

It isn't new characters so much as characters who's threads have already ended. The Blood Angels for example; we already know a bit of their back story, we know how they end up and we know what purpose they served.

So...exactly like the Emperor, all the Primarchs, and the Horus Heresy series in general?

 

Or almost any historical work of fiction ever?

 

MAJOR SPOILERS:

The tall creepy guy kills Gerard Butler, Brutus joins the conspiracy and they kill Caesar, Henry IV defeats the French, Mel Gibson doesn't free Scotland, Michael Cain holds the line at Rourke's Drift, John Wayne loses at the Alamo, and the boat Leonardo Dicaprio is on sinks

 

 

Nope, because they have longer story arcs and weren't invented to serve such a small purpose. The Blood Angels in VS are really just around to show the effects of Signus on the entire Legion and the power of the Red Angel, especially as he's supposed to be some big new weapon for the traitors but up until that point had been the same as any other daemon/possessed. They're a minor plot piece.

 

Could you say the same about any of the other characters you've mentioned? I'm sure someone will mention Ferrus, seeing as his arc was cut short and has still been explored further by various other shorts. Ferrus is still a huge character because of who he was. As a Primarch himself and his death have a big impact on the other Primarchs, and his Legion. Any exploration of the Iron Hands background, character and beliefs really needs to include something about Ferrus.

 

 

 

EDIT: Also Wade what's with the quote chopping? It seems like you only quote the sentences that suite your reply...

[Anvilarium]

I've also heard a forum rumour somewhere (maybe Warseer?) about Iron Hands going back to Istvaan and digging something up there. It was literally one sentence with no source or further discussion, so take that with a hell of a lot of salt.

 

 

It's from the Forgeworld rumours about their Upcoming Book IV: Conquest. They said something along the lines of "there is something under the surface of Isstvan V" and that they would be returning to it at some point. Not sure how the Iron Hands or the other Shattered Legions will be involved though.

 

Apparently, haven't read the actual source material, when Ferrus Manus died his spirit become a greater daemon called the Sapphire King. The Sapphire King coincidently seems to hate the Iron Hands and wants to destroy them, or at least tempt them into Chaos.

 

The Sapphire King is NOT Ferrus. However it was brought into being by the emotional turmoil on Isstvan V at the time of his death. The Clan Raukaan supplement is utter garbage, but not even GW would b*stardise the soul of a dead loyalist Primarch in such a way.

[Wade Garrett]

EDIT: Also Wade what's with the quote chopping? It seems like you only quote the sentences that suite your reply...

Because quoting paragraphs and paragraphs of text when you're only going to be addressing a couple of sentences is wasteful and produces posts and threads that are eyesores to read?

 

I mean, is divorcing the bit above from your points about Ferrus some kind of vile heresy against debating etiquette and the B & C code of conduct?

[Ethrion]

Does anyone know what relevance 'Murder' has, are they referring to the planet Murder seeing that it was visited by The Lunar Wolves - does anyone think the KE will return there and, if so, what for?

Yeah I was wondering about that myself. From what I can remember it was a world quarantined by the Interex and that the "trees" on the planet were artificial weather-maker devices that when destroyed allowed the storms above to dissipate. Apart from that I can't think of anything of note that really happens or is discovered on Murder. Torgaddon and Tarvitz form a strong bond of friendship during the campaign too but that's about it.

 

Also what's puzzling is

why the name Murder appears on Qruze's oath of moment and also in that child's storybook.

 

[Perrin]

EDIT: Also Wade what's with the quote chopping? It seems like you only quote the sentences that suite your reply...

Because quoting paragraphs and paragraphs of text when you're only going to be addressing a couple of sentences is wasteful and produces posts and threads that are eyesores to read?

I mean, is divorcing the bit above from your points about Ferrus some kind of vile heresy against debating etiquette and the B & C code of conduct?

That part no, because it was a direct stand-alone question to you. Your original quote chopping irritated me because the rest of the post was directly applicable to the part you quoted. It explained what I meant, and was literally one extra sentence. Then I had to write a whole new post explaining it further.

And then here we are

EDIT: ANYWAY. Vengful Spirit I think the planet Murder may be what the Oath of Moment was referring to, but I honestly can't see any reason or explanation about how that could possibly be a constructive journey. Unless they find some Interex survivors who give them something/teach them something to help found the Grey Knights? The Interex know a lot about Chaos, maybe they give the KE everything they know?

[Wade Garrett]

ANYWAY. Vengful Spirit I think the planet Murder may be what the Oath of Moment was referring to, but I honestly can't see any reason or explanation about how that could possibly be a constructive journey. Unless they find some Interex survivors who give them something/teach them something to help found the Grey Knights? The Interex know a lot about Chaos, maybe they give the KE everything they know?

You are talking about a faction that encountered what they suspected were Chaos corrupted giants led by an even bigger giant called "The Warmaster", and their response was to lead said giants straight back to their capital for a chat over tea and crumpets.

I maintain that their knowledge of the Primordial Annihilator was superficial at best.

[LongGone]

*makes with the hand wavium and chanting*

 

"It lives!"

 

Apologies in advance to the threadomancy, but as a reader who refuses to pay for the super-ginormous-cool-guy edition I'm ten months behind everyone else.

 

So I recently purchased my own copy of Vengeful Spirit, and am now about 3/4 of the way through. I tried to navigate my way through the previous 20+ pages of this thread to see if my thoughts/questions were answered, but there were just too many spoilers of things I had yet to read. So further apologies if I rehash a lot of things.

 

Gotta be honest gents, I'm having way too many 'what the :cuss ?' moments while reading this book. I'm still enjoying it, but it's stretched the reading out to several weeks vice a day or two each time I'm thrown a little bit.

 

 

 

First off, when Malcador and Russ are playing super checkers, Leman balks at attacking/destroying an unnamed planet who's destruction would hurt Horus, but then a moment or two later is all 'we're executioners and we'll do the dirty deeds others won't' ...like make a suicide run at Warmaster.

 

Besides the questionable tactics displayed, Russ has already attacked and basically destroyed a planet with less provocation. Add that to his Meatloaf-inspired balking, and am I the only one who thinks this whole scene doesn't jive at all? Like. At. All.

 

Then Morty killed the Deathshroud in the blink of an eye. Because a voice from the warp told him to. The clash with his previously stated beliefs from other works is alarming. His choice to sacrifice his men for a demon he didn't initially know, and no gain to speak of... In the wide view of Chaos and the HH universe, it makes sense, but on a character building level it doesn't.

 

I just finished reading the how the Blood Angel captain put his sword through his own skill, and I... I just... I don't get it. So they killed some civilians? Was that covered earlier in the book and I just missed it somehow? To go from climbing a crumbling castle and taking Assassin's Creed style leaps of faith, to ramming a sword through your head... why were they even in the novel? The abruptness of it all was just jarring.

 

There's obviously something in the fluff that I'm not aware of. I've either forgotten bits of previous novels (entirely possible, as VS is now the bajillionth one), or the audio dramas and golden egg novellas (that I've chosen no to consume at this time) have covered important chronological events and now I'm lost. If anyone can clear up the following points, it'd be great:

 

- Severian. Have we met him before?

- Timeline wise, the Dark Angels should be on Maccrage right? For UE? But Mortarian says they're chasing Typhus through the warp? When did that happen?

- In what work did we see the battle for Dwell? I need to see Aximand lose his face. Literally.

 

 

 

Thanks in advance for any discussion or guidance on the above points.

[Kol Saresk]

In the case of Morty, that wasn't a daemon per sé, it was Grulgor, former captain of the Second Company who we last saw in Flight of the Eisenstein. Like Mortarion said, he can recognize his own creations.

 

So to him, it isn't a daemon, its a son whose now-otherworldly nature is instantly more valuable than his nameless bodyguards.

[helterskelter]

Still an act of sorcery though. Which still hasnt been explained. Maybe mortarion is the Emperors rank hypocrisy in primarch form. Its one of my quibbles too can you tell?

 

The face cutting off story is in one of the anthology books, can't remember which to hand.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Hi, welcome to McNeill.

[Kol Saresk]

Still an act of sorcery though. Which still hasnt been explained. Maybe mortarion is the Emperors rank hypocrisy in primarch form. Its one of my quibbles too can you tell?

 

The face cutting off story is in one of the anthology books, can't remember which to hand.

Yes and no. In Daemonancy(which is just after Istvaan V), we see that Mortarion has been practicing sorcery for some time, although his knowledge of it is primitive and is limited to things you would see in Aleister Crowley's Keys of Solomon or the Satanic Bible as written by Anton Szander LaVey(ironically).

 

Vengeful Spirit is three years after that point. Three years of which a daemon showed him that he knew nothing of sorcery. Three years of him expanding his knowledge of legitimate sorcery.

 

Still hypocritical? Yes. But it isn't all of a sudden against the background because it is a logical progression of previously established events.

[helterskelter]

I havent read that particular story. But still further, did he have second thoughts about magnus/show remorse for nikea, considering his involvement in that. It rewrites a bit of fluff at least, wasnt just typhon getting them stuck in the warp. Slightly more logical following Horus now he's shown to be set on the path to damnation

[Augustus]

Mortarion? Remorse? Ha.

[Emperor's Furor]

Scars spoilers -

 

 

I think his position is summed up well within Scars, he's chosen the wrong side, he knows it, he's against sorcery and psychic powers and instead of being on the side that controls it, he's ended up on the side that's succumbed to it but it's to late he's already thrown in his lot with Horus, he wants the Khan to join him as an ally as he doesn't trust anyone else now, but it's to late for him.

 

[helterskelter]

Mortarion? Remorse? Ha.

Well you know, more of a ooh i can see what thats made me look like, maybe shouldnt have totalled my bridge with magnus as opposed to woe is me. WoT has pretty much covered it. Probably should reread scars now

[Daemon2027]

Scars spoilers -

 

 

I think his position is summed up well within Scars, he's chosen the wrong side, he knows it, he's against sorcery and psychic powers and instead of being on the side that controls it, he's ended up on the side that's succumbed to it but it's to late he's already thrown in his lot with Horus, he wants the Khan to join him as an ally as he doesn't trust anyone else now, but it's to late for him.

 

Wow that makes me like Mortarion a hell of a lot more. I liked him a lot anyway.

Could also explain why he turns to sorcery, in order to get some control over a force he doesn't trust.

[depthcharge12]

As for the unnamed planet that Malcador wants Russ to attack - I believe he means Cthonia. I think Russ is smarter than that because he believes the victory will just be a a morale one rather than a legitimate or strategic one.

 

Ultimately, attacking Cthonia would have little to no affect on Horus compared to attacking a home planet such as Macragge or Caliban would - at least that's my opinion - but I think 200 years into the Crusade that Horus no longer has any care for his home world.

 

It would be similar to the Ultras razing Colchis in KNF. Not in much way helpful to the war effort, but cathartic.

[Daemon2027]

Could also weaken the Imperials position. Wouldn't look good If the Imperials started raising human worlds, even traitor ones.

[Sabadin]

In regards to little Horus, if memory serves me right it's in the "Age of Darkness" anthology and the short is titled Little Horus.

[Emperor's Furor]

Severan is from The Outcast Dead. He's....

a latent psyker who has skills comparable to the shadowmasters of the Raven Guard

 

 

As for the Dark Angels

The main part of their legion is on Maccrage, however there's a fleet lead by Corswain that's chasing Typhon

 

 

The Blood Angels

Were a useless part of the story that were used to show how the Red Angel from Fear to Tread now affects Blood Angels he comes into contact with

 

[LongGone]

 

I figured the world was Cthonia, but none of those are reasons Russ gives for balking at it's destruction. Plus, the Sigillite doesn't strike me as someone who suggests a move with no measurable gain. For a guy who admits he's down to do dirty things (and has done them before), Russ' reaction just didn't compute for me. And Hydra, it's not like the Imperium hasn't been laying waste to human worlds for the last two centuries as part of compliance. Razing Cthonia would be business as usual for them.

 

Like I said earlier, it's just weird that he would balk at a tactic he's already used, but then following it up a moment later with the whole 'executioners doing the dirty stuff' routine.

 

And WoT, that was my read of the Blood Angels too. Mass suicide just seems useless, like they gave up without a fight. They could've at least gone down swinging. They're surrounded by thousands upon thousands of the enemy (and the Red Angel), at least make them pay. Was the apparent massacre of innocents alluded to/covered at all earlier in the book, or just thrown in as an afterthought to give a weak justification for battlefield seppuku (I know that's not the exact act they did, but still)?

 

It just seems super weak when the rest of the legion was able to fight/hold off/resist the effects of Khorne's influence for the most part on Signus. Even those that gave in still hacked away at demons (and the odd Space Wolf). The company was sent to Molech to prove themselves, and I just feel like the method used fell flat.

 

 

Also, thanks for the guidance on those other bullets. It seems I need to continue with my retread of all the previous novels and anthologies.

 

Edit: forgot spoiler tags.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Still an act of sorcery though. Which still hasnt been explained. Maybe mortarion is the Emperors rank hypocrisy in primarch form. Its one of my quibbles too can you tell?

 

The face cutting off story is in one of the anthology books, can't remember which to hand.

 

 

Was a short story in Age of Darkness called Little Horus.  Sevarion was in Outcast Dead and Wolf Hunt.

[Aqatone]

*makes with the hand wavium and chanting*

"It lives!"

Apologies in advance to the threadomancy, but as a reader who refuses to pay for the super-ginormous-cool-guy edition I'm ten months behind everyone else.

So I recently purchased my own copy of Vengeful Spirit, and am now about 3/4 of the way through. I tried to navigate my way through the previous 20+ pages of this thread to see if my thoughts/questions were answered, but there were just too many spoilers of things I had yet to read. So further apologies if I rehash a lot of things.

Gotta be honest gents, I'm having way too many 'what the ?' moments while reading this book. I'm still enjoying it, but it's stretched the reading out to several weeks vice a day or two each time I'm thrown a little bit.

First off, when Malcador and Russ are playing super checkers, Leman balks at attacking/destroying an unnamed planet who's destruction would hurt Horus, but then a moment or two later is all 'we're executioners and we'll do the dirty deeds others won't' ...like make a suicide run at Warmaster.

Besides the questionable tactics displayed, Russ has already attacked and basically destroyed a planet with less provocation. Add that to his Meatloaf-inspired balking, and am I the only one who thinks this whole scene doesn't jive at all? Like. At. All.

Then Morty killed the Deathshroud in the blink of an eye. Because a voice from the warp told him to. The clash with his previously stated beliefs from other works is alarming. His choice to sacrifice his men for a demon he didn't initially know, and no gain to speak of... In the wide view of Chaos and the HH universe, it makes sense, but on a character building level it doesn't.

I just finished reading the how the Blood Angel captain put his sword through his own skill, and I... I just... I don't get it. So they killed some civilians? Was that covered earlier in the book and I just missed it somehow? To go from climbing a crumbling castle and taking Assassin's Creed style leaps of faith, to ramming a sword through your head... why were they even in the novel? The abruptness of it all was just jarring.

There's obviously something in the fluff that I'm not aware of. I've either forgotten bits of previous novels (entirely possible, as VS is now the bajillionth one), or the audio dramas and golden egg novellas (that I've chosen no to consume at this time) have covered important chronological events and now I'm lost. If anyone can clear up the following points, it'd be great:

- Severian. Have we met him before?

- Timeline wise, the Dark Angels should be on Maccrage right? For UE? But Mortarian says they're chasing Typhus through the warp? When did that happen?

- In what work did we see the battle for Dwell? I need to see Aximand lose his face. Literally.

Thanks in advance for any discussion or guidance on the above points.

I finished the book last night and you've summed up my thoughts exactly. A typical McNeil book for me. Some very good parts overshadowed by far too many - as what I like to call - "McNeil moments". Alas.

And apologies for necromancy.

[karden00]

*makes with the hand wavium and chanting*

"It lives!"

Apologies in advance to the threadomancy, but as a reader who refuses to pay for the super-ginormous-cool-guy edition I'm ten months behind everyone else.

So I recently purchased my own copy of Vengeful Spirit, and am now about 3/4 of the way through. I tried to navigate my way through the previous 20+ pages of this thread to see if my thoughts/questions were answered, but there were just too many spoilers of things I had yet to read. So further apologies if I rehash a lot of things.

Gotta be honest gents, I'm having way too many 'what the ?' moments while reading this book. I'm still enjoying it, but it's stretched the reading out to several weeks vice a day or two each time I'm thrown a little bit.

First off, when Malcador and Russ are playing super checkers, Leman balks at attacking/destroying an unnamed planet who's destruction would hurt Horus, but then a moment or two later is all 'we're executioners and we'll do the dirty deeds others won't' ...like make a suicide run at Warmaster.

Besides the questionable tactics displayed, Russ has already attacked and basically destroyed a planet with less provocation. Add that to his Meatloaf-inspired balking, and am I the only one who thinks this whole scene doesn't jive at all? Like. At. All.

Then Morty killed the Deathshroud in the blink of an eye. Because a voice from the warp told him to. The clash with his previously stated beliefs from other works is alarming. His choice to sacrifice his men for a demon he didn't initially know, and no gain to speak of... In the wide view of Chaos and the HH universe, it makes sense, but on a character building level it doesn't.

I just finished reading the how the Blood Angel captain put his sword through his own skill, and I... I just... I don't get it. So they killed some civilians? Was that covered earlier in the book and I just missed it somehow? To go from climbing a crumbling castle and taking Assassin's Creed style leaps of faith, to ramming a sword through your head... why were they even in the novel? The abruptness of it all was just jarring.

There's obviously something in the fluff that I'm not aware of. I've either forgotten bits of previous novels (entirely possible, as VS is now the bajillionth one), or the audio dramas and golden egg novellas (that I've chosen no to consume at this time) have covered important chronological events and now I'm lost. If anyone can clear up the following points, it'd be great:

- Severian. Have we met him before?

- Timeline wise, the Dark Angels should be on Maccrage right? For UE? But Mortarian says they're chasing Typhus through the warp? When did that happen?

- In what work did we see the battle for Dwell? I need to see Aximand lose his face. Literally.

Thanks in advance for any discussion or guidance on the above points.

I finished the book last night and you've summed up my thoughts exactly. A typical McNeil book for me. Some very good parts overshadowed by far too many - as what I like to call - "McNeil moments". Alas.

And apologies for necromancy.

I liked VS. But I liked what you said too. Lets call them instead "McMoments"

Again, I dont think this is a fair and square deal, I like a lot of Mcneil's work, but its still a funny jibe ;)

[sitnam]

I havent gotten to VS yet but goven what I've seen between A Thousand Sons, Fulgrim, and Angel Exterminatus he rotates between awesome and infuriating for me. I love his depection of some legions (Iron Hands, Thousand Sons), hate others (The EC) and cant decide on others (Iron Warriors)