Woman in Space Marine army - Is this fluff-legit excuse?

[Grand Master Aldric]

As it happens, blood hounds, Legatus is reading from the same Rick Priestly article you are.  It's also the one on page 6 (quote on page 9) of the 1989 40k Compendium.  A point of interest:  as blood hounds has pointed out, there is no such thing as male tissue types, nor male hormones.  That being so, what can 'keyed to male hormones' mean, logically?  I think Legatus' mention of hormone levels (the only thing that hormonally distinguishes gender) is the only scientifically sensible thing one can take away from that line.  However, that being so, we are then obliged to throw the 'must be male' part out the window, and mute it to a 'works easier and more consistently on males.'  The amount of any given hormone present in a human varies wildly from individual to individual.  For example, looking at testosterone, one estimate for the age that the Astartes process begins gives a variance of between 1 and 619 nanograms per decilitre (of blood) in males and 2-33 ng/dL in females.  That means that some females will have higher levels than some males.  

 

So what your saying is while some females will have higher chance the some males... there will also be more  males altogether?

[Sanctus Ferri]

Well, that depends.  If we assume that the apothecaries are doing nothing to alter the hormonal levels of the candidates, and that the Emperor was aiming for a statistically average male of 10-12 years old, then there would be less females than males in whom all of the organs developed as intended.  Some organs would develop normally regardless of gender.  Other organs would experience a higher rate of dysfunction, whether total or partial in females.

On the other hand, if the apothecaries tested, monitored and regulated hormone levels throughout the process, there would be less difference in success rates, that amount depending on how effective they and their hormonal regulation procedures were.  Given the overall tech level available to the Imperium, the more advanced and educated Chapters ought to be able to manage just fine.   Since hormonal therapy is key to the rejuvenation treatments that keep the Imperial elite young for centuries, the process really shouldn't present any problems.

[Veteran Sergeant]

 

 

And 1 question, who wrote the article you are talking about?

 

The article in question is "The Origins of the Legiones Astartes" from the White Dwarf number 98 from 1988. It was written by Rick Priestley. That article would then later be reprinted in the 3rd Edition Index Astartes article series, including the first Volume of the Index Astartes books.

Let's take that further and say that it's actually been reprinted over and over, in everything from the Warhammer 40K Compendium, to the Fantasy Flight RPGs, and remains the single oldest piece of essentially unaltered fluff in 40K.

 

I've said this before. In a game system that is known for retcons, this is one of the only things that has never changed, even in the slightest. Orks became Space Fungus that reproduces via bonk. Girls can't be Space Marines. The Sisters of Battle stopped being hardline religious zealots and turned into D&D clerics with magic powers. Girls can't be Space Marines. Istvaan V became Isstvan V, three chapters wiped out became 3 legions all but annihilated, 9 survivors became hundreds, became thousands so the RG. Sallies and IH could play a bigger part in the Heresy novels. Girls can't be Space Marines. Squats got eaten by Tyranids after 3rd Edition only to get un-eaten in 6th Edition. Girls can't be Space Marines. Black Templars went from a Codex Chapter, to wacky zealots who hated the Codex and witches, to best friends with witches and the Ecclessiarchy. Girls can't be Space Marines.

 

It's so ridiculously pointless to argue this piece of fluff. Maybe the scientific justifications for it a little hard to understand. But that's the way it is in 40K. Lots of things in 40K only work because we're told they do. Why is this one so ridiculously unacceptable? Maybe no girl Space Marines is arbitrary. Oh well.

[Ace Debonair]

The Sergeant's got it.

It's one of the very few unaltered sections of the old lore. If Games Workshop ever prints anything to the contrary then it'll be 'hooray, female marines for everyone', And everyone who wants them can have as many or as few as they choose.

But until that day, Space Marines are blokes only.

And talking about real-world modern science as it applies to an 80's sci-fi game is a short walk away from madness.

EDIT:

Applying real-world ANYTHING to 40K is a short walk from madness, actually. It's a sci-fi-fantasy game. Some crazy rules apply!

[Aqui]

Ultimately, it's like Veteran Sergeant and others have same said - GW have stated No female Marines, ever. That doesn't mean individuals can't have women with attributes similar to a Space Marine, it just goes against what has been confirmed in the background, real life science or not. I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it, but there are those who will.

[Sanctus Ferri]

Well, you all may give GW licence to overrule science and logic, but I don't. That whole 'suspension of disbelief' thing doesn't work for me. There are many things in the 40k universe that are strange, unlikely or foolish, yet still possible. There are other things which are actually so far beyond current science as to be beyond analysis. But this involves simply misusing current science. That's just no good, and them repeating a falsehood over and over again doesn't magically make it true. That only makes it propaganda.

Incidentally, I find that attitude a trifle ironic coming from a fellow concerned with modifying his miniatures from the form GW made them to achieve correct scale and realistic kit, VS.

There are plenty of ways GW could more or less avoid the problem without abusing science. For example, say the Emperor didn't want to make female space marines. There are various things that hint at why that might be so, implications in HH that space marines may have been an expendable tool to be used and discarded after the crusade, his choice of recruits suggesting that he used them as a means to dispose of sections of humanity that presented no use in his ideal future Imperium. And/or not wanting them to be able to form a separate race outside of humanity. After his active reign, there are a number of perfectly plausible reasons for that to continue. Maybe he forbade it. Maybe because he didn't do it first nobody dares to do so either. Maybe the Imperium is so narrow minded in it's thought process that it cannot conceive it possible because the Emperor didn't do it All of those explanations are quite reasonable to the universe and don't involve tossing bad science at us.

It's not a religion. We aren't obligated to take what they say on faith, even when contrary to reason, nor do I believe they actually intended it to be so. Half the point of the universe is the dichotomy between what is believed and what is actually true. I see this as no different. The article merely represents the twisted viewpoint of the Imperium at large, not what is possible and true.

[Gripharius]

What I don't understand is why people keep trying to make female space marines when there already are female space marines... they are just called Sisters of Battle. 

 

Sisters of Battle are female space marines.  That's the answer.  No other answer is necessary.

[Demus Ragnok]

Well, you all may give GW licence to overrule science and logic, but I don't.

This is hilarious.

[Grand Master Aldric]

What I don't understand is why people keep trying to make female space marines when there already are female space marines... they are just called Sisters of Battle. 

 

Sisters of Battle are female space marines.  That's the answer.  No other answer is necessary.

That's it that is pure heresy!   Sisters of battle are not modified. Also sisters are crazy religious zealots, where as space marines are just crazy. All space marines and sisters now want to destroy you and burn you as a heretic. 

[Demus Ragnok]

 

 

What I don't understand is why people keep trying to make female space marines when there already are female space marines... they are just called Sisters of Battle.

 

Sisters of Battle are female space marines. That's the answer. No other answer is necessary.

That's it that is pure heresy! Sisters of battle are not modified. Also sisters are crazy religious zealots, where as space marines are just crazy. All space marines and sisters now want to destroy you and burn you as a heretic.

Marines are zealots also , they have their own little cults rather than "the church".

[Fibonacci]

I'm pretty sure having a genetic anomaly would keep someone from even being considered as a possible recruit. Being from the same immediate family as someone with a genetic anomaly would be grounds for the immediate and unquestionable dropping a potential recruit.

 

So the good news is they get to stay together on whatever planet they were from since "that guy" is drummed out before he even got his bags packed..

[Fibonacci]

Umm... there is no such thing as a male tissue type or male specific hormones.

And there is no such thing as female space marines.

[Fibonacci]

ok ok ok no cais woman than

here is new one for you guys: soritas slaughtered by orks, (no caos coruptions) Marines came to battle to late, and there only one sister left standing. With her ship and rest of sisters gone, Marines take her temporary under their comand. As hot headed individual as she is, she refused to stay back, while Marines are encountering new enemis along the path home. They allow her to fight alongside for the Emperror untill they finnaly reach inqusition force, to rejoin her back.

now destroy this fluff or aprove it

Drop Inquisition for Echlesarchy and you're good.

Humans in power armor happen all the time in many different ways. A Sister of Battle who is the sole survivor of whatever big nastiness is very fluffy.

[Sanctus Ferri]

What I don't understand is why people keep trying to make female space marines when there already are female space marines... they are just called Sisters of Battle. 

 

Sisters of Battle are female space marines.  That's the answer.  No other answer is necessary.

Except they're not.  The whole bio-engineered and hypnotically conditioned to be more and less than human aspect is a big part of the Astartes concept, and while the Sisterhood have a pretty good argument for the mental half of that, they lack the rest.  Besides which, space marines come in a lot of flavours, while the Sisters don't.  They only come in the anti-witch-religious-zealot with big emphasis on fiery weaponry flavour.  So, really not equivalent.  Besides which, most people seeking to introduce female space marines are looking at fielding troops that aren't gender segregated, and the Sisters don't answer that either.  So, your answer isn't much of an answer at all, and completely ignores the concepts these people are seeking.

 

I'm pretty sure having a genetic anomaly would keep someone from even being considered as a possible recruit. Being from the same immediate family as someone with a genetic anomaly would be grounds for the immediate and unquestionable dropping a potential recruit.

 

So the good news is they get to stay together on whatever planet they were from since "that guy" is drummed out before he even got his bags packed..

This is true.  With the way genetics works, with linked traits and such, no one wants to introduce extra variables like that, especially in a process with as low a success rate as the modification process is supposed to have.  They are going to want pretty genetically 'normal' subjects, and doubly so in an Imperium so concerned with mutation and the purity of the human gene strain.  

 

 

Umm... there is no such thing as a male tissue type or male specific hormones.

And there is no such thing as female space marines.

Maybe.  I'd bet Fabius Bile made a few just to demonstrate his superior scientific knowledge.  But maybe chaos space marines don't count.  

[Lord-Captain Cepinari]

 

What I don't understand is why people keep trying to make female space marines when there already are female space marines... they are just called Sisters of Battle. 

 

Sisters of Battle are female space marines.  That's the answer.  No other answer is necessary.

Except they're not.  The whole bio-engineered and hypnotically conditioned to be more and less than human aspect is a big part of the Astartes concept, and while the Sisterhood have a pretty good argument for the mental half of that, they lack the rest.  Besides which, space marines come in a lot of flavours, while the Sisters don't.  They only come in the anti-witch-religious-zealot with big emphasis on fiery weaponry flavour.  So, really not equivalent.  Besides which, most people seeking to introduce female space marines are looking at fielding troops that aren't gender segregated, and the Sisters don't answer that either.  So, your answer isn't much of an answer at all, and completely ignores the concepts these people are seeking.

 

>I'm pretty sure having a genetic anomaly would keep someone from even being considered as a possible recruit. Being from the same immediate family as someone with a genetic anomaly would be grounds for the immediate and unquestionable dropping a potential recruit.

 

So the good news is they get to stay together on whatever planet they were from since "that guy" is drummed out before he even got his bags packed..

This is true.  With the way genetics works, with linked traits and such, no one wants to introduce extra variables like that, especially in a process with as low a success rate as the modification process is supposed to have.  They are going to want pretty genetically 'normal' subjects, and doubly so in an Imperium so concerned with mutation and the purity of the human gene strain.  

 

 

Umm... there is no such thing as a male tissue type or male specific hormones.

And there is no such thing as female space marines.

Maybe.  I'd bet Fabius Bile made a few just to demonstrate his superior scientific knowledge.  But maybe chaos space marines don't count.  

 

 

If Chaos Space Marines counted then we'd have to drop everything and spend weeks trying to figure out how much of a percentage of the total Space Marine population of the galaxy worships Slaanesh.  I am currently predicting that between 1/8 and 1/12 of all genetically enhanced post humans would qualify.

[Gripharius]

 

What I don't understand is why people keep trying to make female space marines when there already are female space marines... they are just called Sisters of Battle. 

 

Sisters of Battle are female space marines.  That's the answer.  No other answer is necessary.

Except they're not.  The whole bio-engineered and hypnotically conditioned to be more and less than human aspect is a big part of the Astartes concept, and while the Sisterhood have a pretty good argument for the mental half of that, they lack the rest.  Besides which, space marines come in a lot of flavours, while the Sisters don't.  They only come in the anti-witch-religious-zealot with big emphasis on fiery weaponry flavour.  So, really not equivalent.  Besides which, most people seeking to introduce female space marines are looking at fielding troops that aren't gender segregated, and the Sisters don't answer that either.  So, your answer isn't much of an answer at all, and completely ignores the concepts these people are seeking. 

 

You make a lot of good points.  There are a lot of parts of the Astartes mystic that cannot be replicated by the Sororitas.  So I give you that they are not really equivalent.

 

I guess just don't understand why.  I mean, I love kick-ass chicks.  Ironically, the female Vasquez was my favorite "space marine" in Aliens, lol.  But somehow Space Marines^TM just seem irrevocably and irrefutably male to me. 

 

I guess its just that, to me, to make a female into a space marine, you either have to change what a space marine is, or you have change what the female is. You either have to essentially make the female a male with female sex organs, or you have to reduce a lot of what a space marine is to fit a female.

 

No matter how hard you try or how brilliant your fluff is, I don't think you can ever really make a female Space Marine.

 

That is one of the few laws of canon that I think is absolute.

[Ecritter]

why do we have this same discussion over and over?

[Fibonacci]

 

What I don't understand is why people keep trying to make female space marines when there already are female space marines... they are just called Sisters of Battle. 

 

Sisters of Battle are female space marines.  That's the answer.  No other answer is necessary.

Except they're not.  The whole bio-engineered and hypnotically conditioned to be more and less than human aspect is a big part of the Astartes concept, and while the Sisterhood have a pretty good argument for the mental half of that, they lack the rest.  Besides which, space marines come in a lot of flavours, while the Sisters don't.  They only come in the anti-witch-religious-zealot with big emphasis on fiery weaponry flavour.  So, really not equivalent.  Besides which, most people seeking to introduce female space marines are looking at fielding troops that aren't gender segregated, and the Sisters don't answer that either.  So, your answer isn't much of an answer at all, and completely ignores the concepts these people are seeking.

There is also the concept of humanity.  Sisters, like IG, are still only human.  Space Marines are heavily altered super-humans.  Sisters of Battle will still have thoughts and feelings for family, home, being accepted in a group, favorite pizza toppings and all parts of being human just like we feel now.  Space Marines are beyond that and have all those thoughts wiped away.  It's a Sarah Conner / Terminator sort of comparison.

 

 

 

Maybe.  I'd bet Fabius Bile made a few just to demonstrate his superior scientific knowledge.  But maybe chaos space marines don't count.  

Now that is an interesting concept.  Daemonettes are plentiful and maybe even better but nothing says a big Feth You to the Emperor like using a warp hammer to force what he could not achieve.

[Grand Master Aldric]

why do we have this same discussion over and over?

Because we are (at least some of us.) Astartes we do not give in until the last heretic has been burned and the last xeno slain!

[Aqui]

why do we have this same discussion over and over?

Because we are (at least some of us.) Astartes we do not give in until the last heretic has been burned and the last xeno slain!

That may be, but as Ecritter has correctly pointed out - it has been discussed over and over again. Hopefully the opening poster has gathered some inspiration for what they want to do, but ultimately this topic has served its purpose and is now closed.