codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Kol Saresk]

As I said before dude, it wasn't perfect but we'd be better off with veteran skills to represent each different squad of marines in the warband and purchasable daemonic gifts. It was so great because of all the customization. They were still better represented then than now and like I said before you didn't have to use the "legion" lists.

Yeah, and people like Jeske would then tell me that my Night Lords list that didn't use the Night Lords list wouldn't be a Night Lords list but a "Insert Name" List that looked like Night Lords.

 

Personally, I prefer Phoros idea

[Scribe]

Go look at my thread and tear it down Kol. You know you want to.

[Yogi]

That isn't the only reason Tanith. I ain't lying when I say I don't see Legion traits, only Rites of War. The Legions weren't represented: they were used as archetypes to build certain lists and everyone was happy because the list had Legion So-so in the name. It was a narrow view of a narrow concept and was restrictive beyond belief and yet here we are, asking for creativity and variety and yet wanting to run back to those same nine lists.

9 lists is better then one.

 

I get why you don't like it, because you like night lords. There isn't a game mechanic that represents picking on civilians and being rubbish. 3.5 went Fast attack - raptors and then said raptors like to hunt people down in fluff even though they do nothing of the sort in game.

 

I can fix Night lords give them night vision rules and the new rule I will make right now.

 

Space Bullies: When within 12 inch LOS of a Night lord unit, an enemy unit must take a Ld test, if they pass the night lord unit must then take a Ld test. If the NL fail their LD is reduced by 3, this is permanent and does not stack.

 

So their scary cowards. Fluffy. 

 

There that's characterful. 

[Brother Ambroz]

Then just ignore them, it's not hard. Sometimes it's so difficult to understand what he's saying anyway, I only read his posts half the time anyway.

Phoros's idea is good but it'd be hard to implement and again wouldn't give as many options as veteran skills. Plus it's a lot more fun to be able to customize your lord with gifts so they match each person's fluff correctly. Still anything would be miles above what we have now.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

That isn't the only reason Tanith. I ain't lying when I say I don't see Legion traits, only Rites of War. The Legions weren't represented: they were used as archetypes to build certain lists and everyone was happy because the list had Legion So-so in the name. It was a narrow view of a narrow concept and was restrictive beyond belief and yet here we are, asking for creativity and variety and yet wanting to run back to those same nine lists.

9 lists is better then one.

 

I get why you don't like it, because you like night lords. There isn't a game mechanic that represents picking on civilians and being rubbish. 3.5 went Fast attack - raptors and then said raptors like to hunt people down in fluff even though they do nothing of the sort in game.

 

I can fix Night lords give them night vision rules and the new rule I will make right now.

 

Space Bullies: When within 12 inch LOS of a Night lord unit, an enemy unit must take a Ld test, if they pass the night lord unit must then take a Ld test. If the NL fail their LD is reduced by 3, this is permanent and does not stack.

 

So their scary cowards. Fluffy.

 

There that's characterful.

And where I have I said we should only have one list? Where? IIRC, this topic is littered with posts of me saying "Let's give the Chaos Community their Nine lists and then Traits. But let's just not call those lists Legion lists since they aren't Legion lists." Which at every turn has been met with criticism, insults and everything else under the sun from "Kol, I know you aren't saying Shaft the Legions, but you need to stop saying shaft the Legions." to "Shaft the Renegades" to pretty much everything else you can think of.

 

Do you realize what Phoros' idea combined with the Codex Supplements could mean? Complete and total customization from the squad up.

[Kilofix]

Hey on a separate note, does this mean we can get 5 Fast or Heavy slots with BL and CS if we pay the Sorc HQ tax (and needs VotlW / no Marks for BL)?

[Scribe]

You can only have 1 ally unless this new book is outside that restriction. You know, like all the imperial BULL:cuss.

 

 

And where I have I said we should only have one list? Where? IIRC, this topic is littered with posts of me saying "Let's give the Chaos Community their Nine lists and then Traits. But let's just not call those lists Legion lists since they aren't Legion lists." Which at every turn has been met with criticism, insults and everything else under the sun from "Kol, I know you aren't saying Shaft the Legions, but you need to stop saying shaft the Legions." to "Shaft the Renegades" to pretty much everything else you can think of.

Do you realize what Phoros' idea combined with the Codex Supplements could mean? Complete and total customization from the squad up.

 

Which I can simply never see happening again, not even close. Its essentially a non-starter since GW speak after 3.5 was 'it was too hard to make a list.

 

Now was that a lie? I'm sure it was, and they just wanted to push the 'open list' concept of 4th edition's codex.

[Yogi]

But let's just not call those lists Legion lists since they aren't Legion lists.

 

Yeah nah. Chaos is Legions to a lot of people. GW says no, ADB says no, you say no. But that is what the majority (I would say) wanted. And lets not pretend the fluff is important. They took deamons and the mark of undivided away. They do what they want. They could give us Legion lists. 

 

I just think its funny to see so many people slam legion lists as trash that should never happen again. Armed with nebulous ideas of a codex with more freedom then the loyalists. Lol sure. 

 

Do you realize what Phoros' idea combined with the Codex Supplements could mean?

 

Legion lists are better then Phoros idea IMO. His idea is more mongrel warband stuff you can shape into a legion. Not to my taste. 

[Kol Saresk]

Hence my serious of joke of us needing to get Phoros into GW.

 

Also, why would I want to tear down your thread?

[Brother Ambroz]

Who cares what a supplement is called if it gives what most of us want?

[daboarder]

That isn't the only reason Tanith. I ain't lying when I say I don't see Legion traits, only Rites of War. The Legions weren't represented: they were used as archetypes to build certain lists and everyone was happy because the list had Legion So-so in the name. It was a narrow view of a narrow concept and was restrictive beyond belief and yet here we are, asking for creativity and variety and yet wanting to run back to those same nine lists.

Honestly,

 

This is semantics, Rights of war, legion tactics, warband archetypes. They are just fancy words for the same thing.

 

So long as we could accurately represent varied forces its all the same thing

[Kol Saresk]

 

Who cares what a supplement is called if it gives what most of us want?

Because apparently the name is more important than the product.

[Yogi]

Who cares what a supplement is called if it gives what most of us want?

 

Easy to play Khorne as Space wolves. But its too lame for me to do. 

[Brother Heinrich]

I will say it again as I have already said in a couple threads. No one talking about "Legion" rules, lists, traits, etc. is talking about having having rules represent a cohesive Legion formation in the 41st millennium, we are talking about the traits and practices of the original legions handed to the generations after or remembered by those those who were their to practice them. This whole, "customize each and every squad and let Chuck in 2nd squad have a special combi-plasma gun named Steve." is garbage. This is the exact attitude that makes every other gamer look at Chaos player like a bunch of whiney kids who want the universe on a silver platter. 

 

Seriously flip the tables, what if you're sitting there as an Ork, Tau, Eldar (Who've got more history than every other race out there mind you) player, and you see the Chaos codex drop and it's got 9 specific different traits as well as individual squads being able to take stuff like Tank Hunters, Infiltrate, Relentless, and every other cool rule under the sun as well dozens of unique artifacts and insanely customized warlords, I would be shirt-tearing pissed at GW.

 

Give us a few traits to make the original traits of the Legions felt, don't restrict force organization so the players can still make every flavor of Night Lord or Iron Warrior warband imaginable, and let Warbands pick and choose their lineage at will just like Codex Marine players do now. 

 

Who cares what a supplement is called if it gives what most of us want?

Because after a while whats the difference between using the Tyranid Codex or Ork codex and playing counts-as. Names are important. Recognition is important. Without it, you're basically just inventing an army and playing rules for someone else's game. Some people can swallow that, not me, and I reckon not a lot of chaos guys. Sure you can buy the new supplement, use it for your armies, win some games, lose some games, but I guarantee you at some point down the line, you'll look at the Crimson :cuss on the front of that codex and go, "Man, I wish they would do something like this for Night Lords..."

Names matter. Recognition matters.

[Scribe]

I will say it again as I have already said in a couple threads. No one talking about "Legion" rules, lists, traits, etc. is talking about having having rules represent a cohesive Legion formation in the 41st millennium, we are talking about the traits and practices of the original legions handed to the generations after or remembered by those those who were their to practice them. This whole, "customize each and every squad and let Chuck in 2nd squad have a special combi-plasma gun named Steve." is garbage. This is the exact attitude that makes every other gamer look at Chaos player like a bunch of whiney kids who want the universe on a silver platter. 

 

Seriously flip the tables, what if you're sitting there as an Ork, Tau, Eldar (Who've got more history than every other race out there mind you) player, and you see the Chaos codex drop and it's got 9 specific different traits as well as individual squads being able to take stuff like Tank Hunters, Infiltrate, Relentless, and every other cool rule under the sun as well dozens of unique artifacts and insanely customized warlords, I would be shirt-tearing pissed at GW.

 

Give us a few traits to make the original traits of the Legions felt, don't restrict force organization so the players can still make every flavor of Night Lord or Iron Warrior warband imaginable, and let Warbands pick and choose their lineage at will just like Codex Marine players do now. 

 

Who cares what a supplement is called if it gives what most of us want?

Because after a while whats the difference between using the Tyranid Codex or Ork codex and playing counts-as. Names are important. Recognition is important. Without it, you're basically just inventing an army and playing rules for someone else's game. Some people can swallow that, not me, and I reckon not a lot of chaos guys. Sure you can buy the new supplement, use it for your armies, win some games, lose some games, but I guarantee you at some point down the line, you'll look at the Crimson :cuss on the front of that codex and go, "Man, I wish they would do something like this for Night Lords..."

 

Names matter. Recognition matters.

 

There right here, bold for extra chain axe to head 'oomph'.

 

EDIT: And I'll go a step further, and I thank you all, because every time I get annoyed I know that indeed Chaos is my calling, however WHY does the Name matter? Why does the recognition matter??

 

Because we are half the story. HALF of the story of the imperium is that they fell, they where broken upon the altar of Betrayal, and we are still out there.

 

The Legions matter because without us, without the original oathbreakers, 40K can spin off into an eternity of Space Marine drivel, with Space Marines allied to Inquisitors allied to Knights, allied to Imperial Guard, and it will all be nothing.

 

The story, simply, matters.

[daboarder]

I think the name does matter

 

But at this point Ill take what I can get

 

If GW released a supplement for the purge tomorrow, but it let me run units with +1T -1I and FnP I honestly don't think i'd give a :cuss anymore I'm too tired of banging my head against their stupid brick wall.

 

thats why if I was a word bearer player (and I'm not saying they should merely that if I was) I'd just use the damned list and make my own story.

 

Hell if the Div relic is true I think I'll be making a 1Ksons list using this. A ML3 Div sorcerer and Ahriman as warlords combined with squads ot 1Ksons, that div goes a long way to making the army more playable. Little things count, just look at the change in nids from the slates

[Kol Saresk]

@Heinrich: I have to disagree with your premise. I think there's about three pages of people telling me the lists/traits/rules are wanted to represent an organized Legion, not a "mongrel warband"(as Yogi puts it) that holds to the name and colors.

[Scribe]

We KNOW, that outside of what, Word Bearers (and thats a stretch) the legions all blew up. This is about something as trivial as acknowledgment in the basis of the rules.

 

The concept is simply not that difficult. Acknowledgment of the fact the original legions are distinct, both loyalist (who have such a distinction despite how many 'foundings' and 10,000 years of REAL TIME)  and traitor, who are simply all the same, 100%, as eachother.

 

We have rules for the 3rd Company of the Imperial Fists.

 

Alpha Legion and Word Bearers have identical rule sets.

 

Dont care how you solve for it, but to many, is a problem.

[Gratan]

I need to figure out how to convert all these extra DV chosen into Possessed. I have a lot of extra DV chosen...

[Brother Heinrich]

@Heinrich: I have to disagree with your premise. I think there's about three pages of people telling me the lists/traits/rules are wanted to represent an organized Legion, not a "mongrel warband"(as Yogi puts it) that holds to the name and colors.

That's not what I got at all from the past 17 pages or so. I have yet to see anyone go, "Why can't I field 30 terminators and a Contemptor talon backed up by medusa batteries for my Iron Warriors in 40k?"

 

Everyone just wants rules to show where they came from, who they are, we are tired of being "D.) All of the Above"

[daboarder]

We KNOW, that outside of what, Word Bearers (and thats a stretch) the legions all blew up. This is about something as trivial as acknowledgment in the basis of the rules.

 

We also know that the most shattered of those legions (Word Eaters) was re-forged by angron on multiple occasions AFTER skalathrax. Don't post that apologist, "legions are broken" drivel, it has no bearing on the conversation and is destroyed by the loyalist chapter traits (they were broken LONG before the chaos ones)

[Kol Saresk]

@Heinrich: I haven't see that either. But everytime I've been asked "why are the Legions dead?" And I respond with "because they are no longer organized as Legions nor are they disciplined as such" the response has been "thats not true." It is possible I'm getting this mixed up with the other Crimson Slaughter thread however.

 

Where have the World Eaters been "reforged" on more than one occasion? I admit that this escapes my knowledge.

[daboarder]

I haven't see that either. But everytime I've been asked "why are the Legions dead?" And I respond with "because they are no longer organized as Legions nor are they disciplined as such" the response has been "thats not true." It is possible I'm getting this mixed up with the other Crimson Slaughter thread however.

Re-read the codex, its right there in the description of angrons first war on Armageddon in plain english

 

and there is also the Dominion of Fire 200 years of rage and bloodshed by Angron leading a host of 50,000 World Eaters. REALLY DEAD LEGION!

[Scribe]

*rubs the blood from his eyes*

 

daboarder, thats not what hes talking about (correct me if I am wrong Kol)

 

I think, gents, that this is why we 'cant have nice things'.

 

We, the fractured, self loathing, nihilistic beasts of Chaos simply disagree too fundamentally, to ever get anywhere.

 

Far as I can tell, there are 3 main camps.

 

Legions - Where we want something in the way of rules driven distinction so that when we drop models on the table the name means something within the context of the dice throwing.

 

Warbands - We are too unique, too disparate in our training, practices, or beliefs to have anything as unified as an 'Army Rule' at the Warband level.

 

CHAOS, not Chaos SPACE MARINES - These folks dont give a :cuss about our origin, its all Chaos, all the time, and the less we are like Space Marines, the better.

 

I dont see a common ground here, honestly, that could satisfy everyone. :/

 

Hopefully Supplements stand the test of time, because each COULD be done in a supplement, easily.

[daboarder]

Right sorry missed hienrichs post

 

nevermind me then ill go back to my to tired to care post