codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Brother Ambroz]

There's a huge difference between using the tyranid codex and ork codex, that's just a bad comparison. Especially when comparing it to the chaos marine codex and one of its possible supplements. Guess opinions matter to you more than me but whatever, agree to disagree.

 

So you guys are honestly saying if we got those and it was called <insert random warband name here> supplement, you would still be upset? As long as I could get veteran skills/traits and gifts for lords and their ilk I don't care what it's called, this is coming from a guy who started in the beginning of 3.5, so I've been through it all.

 

Scribe, that's probably true, I mean for every time most of us agree on something one person pops up right at the end and starts arguing. That leads a few more people and it becomes a full scale battle! We definitely are a fractured lot.

[Scribe]

Yes, I for one would have accepted this supplement with open arms if it had been called Codex: Word Bearers, as it is, I certainly wont pay for it, though I likely will read it, but I wont use it either way as I dont do possessed.

 

Regardless, my passion gets out of hand on this subject....

[Brother Heinrich]

I hate this family, and I mean that in the kindest and most fraternal way possible. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

@Scribe: My "view"(or whatever you want to call it) is that there are Night Lords, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Sons of Horus out there. Just not as Legions. Sometimes its a solitary Legionnaire in a warband of renegades(the EC in the Tyrants Champion). Sometimes its reversed(Variel). Sometimes its a "pure" Warband(Marduk's Host). Sometimes its mixed(Black Legion).

 

The kicker is, the Legions' "specialities" are no longer the sole purview of the respective Legions. Its becoming diluted because time goes on, the new kids are taking after the old geezers and adopting their trade. Basically, the specialties aren't so special anymore. World Eaters aren't the only Berzerkers on the block. And since the psycho-surgeons will do implantations for anyone, even the Nails aren't a specialty.

 

So as a result, there is the question "What separates the Traitors from the Renegades who act just like them?" It can't be the list for obvious reasons. Is it traits? Okay, what traits?

 

That's why, to me, the nine 3.5 lists are archetype lists, the basis of a list. But are the basis for a warband. The warband chooses the list, not vice versa. So, let's make the lists.

 

But we still have the problem on traits. How do we show those? Do we just put certain traits with the lists? Or do we put them in the base codex and share with the supplements?

 

Personally, I'd take Phoros idea and make that baseline. Maybe reserve a few to be supplement specific.

 

Of course, this all predicated on the obvious need for a new Codex.

[Scribe]

Thats the rub, the codex as it stands, as I am guessing Crimson Slaughter will bear out just as Black Legion did, is unable to be saved by 'X as Troops'. It needs something more...

[Brother Ambroz]

Well it would probably help if our most of our elites (which they seem to like making into troops) weren't complete crap.

[Scribe]

I wonder, at the most basic, what are our issues?

 

1. Cost per model?

2. Transport options (lack thereof) or Deployment options?

3. Shooting/Punching Power?

 

Not even a drop pod...

[Kol Saresk]

1 and 2 are the biggest issues. 3 is for the most part dependent on 1 and 2. For example, the Heldrake is underpriced for what it does. Meanwhile we have some units that could pack a wallop, but they are overpriced and/or are unable to deliver said wallop.

[Hellrender]

1 & 2 and grenades in some cases.

 

In the case of possessed a simply Beast Unit type standard would solve most of it. Give the Table then like FNP 5+, Shrouded and 3++, and i think you got a decent enough troops unit.

[daboarder]

I'd change 2 to a general overall lack of options

[Phoros]

EDIT: Phoros, we need to get you writing 6.5 for GW.

Heh. Ohohohohohoho. No, I have no illusions about my ability to write a decent Codex, or any rules at all. I'm flattered that you like my idea, but I'm definitely not the best person to write rules.

_{Although I do have some ideas... imagine "kindred" rules that let you take, say, 2 of x unit as troops... No! Bad Phoros!}

[Rain]

I would say the main problem with the list (besides the more subjective 'lack of soul') is weakness of Troops selections. Our cheaper troops are generally outclassed by Grey Hunters and even Tacticals (whom most loyalist players consider bad by the way), whereas our more expensive choices are outclassed by Grey Knights and Blood Angels (assuming Sang Priests) and a lack a good delivery system in the case of berzerkers.

 

Really the only Troops choice we have that isn't flatly worse than a loyalist alternative is Plague Marines, which probably explains why they are fielded so much. Don't get me wrong, I love Plague Marines, hell I played a pure Death Guard army most of 5th, but the other choices need something to set them apart.

[the jeske]

 Well actualy our best troops choice is cultists . PMs are run only by those who realy want to use power armored dudes.

 

The kicker is, the Legions' "specialities" are no longer the sole
purview of the respective Legions. Its becoming diluted because time
goes on, the new kids are taking after the old geezers and adopting
their trade. Basically, the specialties aren't so special anymore. World
Eaters aren't the only Berzerkers on the block. And since the
psycho-surgeons will do implantations for anyone, even the Nails aren't a
specialty.

But that is not true . There are no non 1ksons rubrics . No legion on warband ever got hands on enough sonic weapons to both field them an mass and develope tactics of using them on a squad+ level . WE are not the only berzerkers , but they are the only ones with nails. AL is the only one using mass sleeper agents ,which are not just chaos cultists but full blown aspirants with some of  the space marine implants . But even if there was nothing special and all chaos marines be it  fresh from the ultramarine forge renegades or 10k++ years veterans were the same . They would still operate in a different way . A legion marine knows and has trained fights were there are masses of space marines used . Fresh renegades will at best have  expiriance [if they are lucky] of fighting in up to few 100 man formation. Even simple things , like being used to fighting along side demons is a huge difference .

 

 

 

 

. Give the Table then like FNP 5+, Shrouded and 3++, and i think you got a decent enough troops unit.

 

Ok so this way you create a 20+pts melee tar pit troop unit . We would have to take 10 of them [minimum] and that drives the cost of the unit , way up . They would still be losing to cultists. We can have good troops and we can have bad troops , but we can't have high cost troops , when all the killing is done outside of the troop section . If taking 2-4 units of possessed would require the droping of the whole support section , then they wouldn't be played .

[Brother Amarel]

*rubs the blood from his eyes*

 

daboarder, thats not what hes talking about (correct me if I am wrong Kol)

 

I think, gents, that this is why we 'cant have nice things'.

 

We, the fractured, self loathing, nihilistic beasts of Chaos simply disagree too fundamentally, to ever get anywhere.

 

Far as I can tell, there are 3 main camps.

 

Legions - Where we want something in the way of rules driven distinction so that when we drop models on the table the name means something within the context of the dice throwing.

 

Warbands - We are too unique, too disparate in our training, practices, or beliefs to have anything as unified as an 'Army Rule' at the Warband level.

 

CHAOS, not Chaos SPACE MARINES - These folks dont give a :cuss about our origin, its all Chaos, all the time, and the less we are like Space Marines, the better.

 

I dont see a common ground here, honestly, that could satisfy everyone. :/

 

Hopefully Supplements stand the test of time, because each COULD be done in a supplement, easily.

 

Is it really so difficult to find common ground?

 

Internal balance aside, I think the current rulebook does a pretty good job at giving us Warband options and also allows for the creation of a (quite limited) non-Marine army (a few more options on the Cultists would be nice).

 

So what's missing is Legion rules and I think there's two obvious ways to do this. The first is to allow for additional rules / equipment choices if a CSM army is made up from a limited suite of Units, possibly with some size restrictions in place - this is pretty much what we had back in the day (where the Chaos God Legions had bonuses for Squads in particular sizes and they and the Undivided Legions has slight tweaks to their Force Org and access to additional skills). The second would be to create an Army Rule for the SM Codex and let people build either Chaos or Loyalist with Chaos Geneseed armies from there. I realise that the second option might cause some angst here, but I think it best represents the situation of a large number of  SM still fighting as a Legion without breaking the direction of the current CSM (which I can't see happening). This is really just an extension of where FW is at with their rules for their specific legions (already you could, for example, use the Carchadons rules for World Eaters using the SM Codex). 

[d@n]

Your cheapest troops are cultists. In the currant objective based game, where games are won or lost based on who has troops left on the table, at the end of the game, it can be argued that cultists are the best troops in any power armour codex. Purely on the fact that there so many cheap wound. With any marine your paying a premium for power armour, that's what your paying the points for. But in 6th edition there's so much ap3 stuff that power armour is largely irrelevant.

 

Large multiple units of cultists is the way to go.

 

Slay the warlord. Line breaker. First blood and holding objectives are how you win games, having cheaper/better power armoured troops has very little to do with any of them.

[the jeske]

Is it really so difficult to find common ground?

You tell me . Kol idea of good is that all csm are the same , that there are no legions , just ad hoc created warbands , where everything goes with everything . There is no style or theme to lists , because NL can be tzeench siege dudes and IW can be fast attacking slanesh raptors . And people like me thing that the theme of legions was a good idea , perfectly done in the 3.5 codex ,it even had the option to play  the list like Kol wanted only back then it was called black legion . 

[Clone]

This all escalated quickly. I can't help but wonder why everyone is arguing over something that everyone wants. You all are arguing about wishlisting right? There are other topics for this very discussion.

 

Honesty, I think you should all step away from this and chill out. Maybe I'm misreading a friendly discussion as an argument, if that's the case please ignore this post but if this is an argument... chill out people. Save your hatred for the False Emperor.

[Minsc]

Can we go back to talking about the Crimson Slaughter supplement please?

Anyone got some new rumours / read the book yet?

[Kol Saresk]

This all escalated quickly. I can't help but wonder why everyone is arguing over something that everyone wants. You all are arguing about wishlisting right? There are other topics for this very discussion.

 

Honesty, I think you should all step away from this and chill out. Maybe I'm misreading a friendly discussion as an argument, if that's the case please ignore this post but if this is an argument... chill out people. Save your hatred for the False Emperor.

It goes back and forth. For the most part its "This is my opinion and this is why I have it." and then every now and then there's someone who comes along and goes "This is my opinion and my opinion is fact." and that's when it heats up. Or when someone just starts slinging insults.

[d@n]

I really want to see what the havoc/chosen kit and cultist kits, that are rumoured to be coming out look like

[Gratan]

I'm just hoping there is more than one Autocannon in the Havoc kit...

[Hellrender]

Im just hoping there is a havoc kit at all.

[d@n]

well hellrender, there's been rumours about a second wave including csm chosen the hell brute and havocs since the codex came out. so as the brute is true im optimistic about the rest.

[Clone]

 

 

 

This all escalated quickly. I can't help but wonder why everyone is arguing over something that everyone wants. You all are arguing about wishlisting right? There are other topics for this very discussion.

 

Honesty, I think you should all step away from this and chill out. Maybe I'm misreading a friendly discussion as an argument, if that's the case please ignore this post but if this is an argument... chill out people. Save your hatred for the False Emperor.

It goes back and forth. For the most part its "This is my opinion and this is why I have it." and then every now and then there's someone who comes along and goes "This is my opinion and my opinion is fact." and that's when it heats up. Or when someone just starts slinging insults.

It's all fun and games till someone loses an eye. I guess even the legions fought amongst themselves eh :)

 

Im just hoping there is a havoc kit at all.

The rumors were right about the hellbrute so I've got a good feeling. I don't particularly use havocs but I've put my chosen conversion on hold for the mean time.

[Hellrender]

My problem is that the helbrute kit was rumour 1,5 years ago. I dont like to wait another 1,5 years for the havoc rumour to be true. As i was going to build normal csm out of those aswell