codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Tenebris]

At long last i managed to put my hands on a computer so i could post here. Lets begin with the basics, 1. chaos is and has always been about the original traitor legions, followed by the daemons and only later on by renegade guard and chapters. 2. All we ask is more rules and not less, and most certainly not OP rules on par with tau or eldar, but good old honest fluffy rules. 3. At this stage anything, everyting, even scraps of rules is more than welcome, for we of chaos are in a sorry state.

 

Hell even the Tyranids have tons of formations and only three months passed since their release.

 

On a side note i have read the new Crimson Slaughter novella and truth be told i am very eager to read more, i really wander about te full scope of the fall that befell the crimson sabres. All in all not bad fluff, not bad at all.

 

In the end i hope that this supplement will stirr gw into action and hopefully herald new kits, new fluff and above all new rules. Rather demand ad hoc supplements i see formations as a good alternative to chaos specifics or as a way to boost our stale gameplay. All goes in my book at this stage as a chaos player, anything new is fine.

[Kol Saresk]

Yep. So honestly, I can't really say I have a problem with them expanding on newer warbands as 1.) it creates more crackbackground which will a.) be lackluster but harm no one or b.) actually be worth something and 2.) like I said before, leaves my faction inviolate. Yes I admit selfishness on that part.

[Rain]

Your faction has already been violated, ever since the painted lightning got changed to "coruscating energy". Also, if GW was smart, they would have just written a supplement for Renegade Warbands and for Legion Warbands. It would have been the same 2 supplements we have now, and the Renegades one could have had plenty of new fluff about the Crimson Slaughter, as well as stuff on the Red Corsairs (who, unlike the Crimson Slaughter, have something more than generic CURSED BY CHAAAAAOS fluff) and the Legions supplement would have the Legion fluff and rules that players like myself, Heinrich, jeske, et al want.

[Kol Saresk]

And yet, it is amazing how many Night Lord fans just glaze over such a small and inconsequential thing thanks to Lord of the Night and the Night Lord trilogy. :)

[Rain]

By which logic you could also glaze over anything in a new NL supplement that you didn't like, and I'd get the rules and recognition that I do like, so you needn't worry about what happened to IH or BT happening to us which is my entire point, thank you for making it. My current army is NL as well, and to me it's all painted on terror marking. My marines aren't at a rave, they aren't covered in flashing lights, it's part of the paint scheme. I would similarly plan to ignore any other idiocy GW comes up with fluffwise, but I'd imagine the rules at least would more or less follow established themes as they did for BL.

 

Oh and I'm probably alone in this, but I also mostly disregard BL stuff on NL in my "mental image" of my army, the NL trilogy were really well written and engrossing stories, but they just didn't fit my mental image of NL. The characters didn't really come off as twisted sadists and murderers, they hardly seemed more cruel than some of the more hardline loyalist chapters (ie Marines Malevolent). Then, as if to address this, various torture scenes are added to the last book, but it just feels a bit disjointed, here Talos is having a conversation with his human slave as if he's an equal, and here he's skinning dudes alive. Cuz evil. Which I guess is why First Heretic is still my favorite ADB book, and possibly BL book period, that thing is a hidden masterpiece.

[Kol Saresk]

So in reality, since background in the supplement is worthless to you, then all you need are rules. Recognition only comes with background you recognize. If you don't recognize, there is no recognition. So what name is on the cover really shouldn't matter.

[Rain]

It's not worthless, it's worth as much as I deem it to be given my subjective experiences and opinions. There is no such thing as a "real" Night Lord so the idea of canon is kind of silly to me. I was introduced to the Legions via the IA articles put out before the 3.5 codex, and my views of each Legion are largely still based on that background. I really loved all of the IA articles, and as such I would accept and welcome any new background that follows the themes laid out therein, and ignore that which doesn't especially when it strikes me as juvenile (ie real lighting on the armor).

 

So yeah, at this point I don't care that much about new background since most recently written background has been mediocre at best with the exception of the new Dark Eldar fluff which is amazing. What I do want however, are rules to better represent the Night Lords that I love, and they are the NL of the IA, lucky for me, the general theme of fast overwhelming force and terror tactics introduced in the IA has actually stuck around, so as long as said rules follow up on that, I'd be happy as I would feel like I have a Night Lords army and not just a Dark Blue Chaos army.

 

Edit: I was never the person arguing about the name on the cover, I think that was Heinrich. Although I agree with him in spirit, I would even settle for a general Codex: Legion Warbands that contained something like a "Terror Doctrine". That would be fine for me, although I still don't agree with your point as there is a difference between ignoring new and contrived background that you feel goes against the theme laid out for your faction and not caring about background at all. I would argue that I care just as much about background as you, I just care about older background that I enjoy while you I guess care about newer background, or all background or something.

[Tenebris]

I think that the cult legions should come first for a supplement, while the undivided ones can easily come later. I think it is imperative for team chaos to have vaild and playable khorne, tzeentch slaanesh and nurgle armies before moving unto undivided ones.

[Kol Saresk]

It's not worthless, it's worth as much as I deem it to be given my subjective experiences and opinions. There is no such thing as a "real" Night Lord so the idea of canon is kind of silly to me. I was introduced to the Legions via the IA articles put out before the 3.5 codex, and my views of each Legion are largely still based on that background. I really loved all of the IA articles, and as such I would accept and welcome any new background that follows the themes laid out therein, and ignore that which doesn't especially when it strikes me as juvenile (ie real lighting on the armor).

 

So yeah, at this point I don't care that much about new background since most recently written background has been mediocre at best with the exception of the new Dark Eldar fluff which is amazing. What I do want however, are rules to better represent the Night Lords that I love, and they are the NL of the IA, lucky for me, the general theme of fast overwhelming force and terror tactics introduced in the IA has actually stuck around, so as long as said rules follow up on that, I'd be happy as I would feel like I have a Night Lords army and not just a Dark Blue Chaos army.

 

Edit: I was never the person arguing about the name on the cover, I think that was Heinrich. Although I agree with him in spirit, I would even settle for a general Codex: Legion Warbands that contained something like a "Terror Doctrine". That would be fine for me, although I still don't agree with your point as there is a difference between ignoring new and contrived background that you feel goes against the theme laid out for your faction and not caring about background at all. I would argue that I care just as much about background as you, I just care about older background that I enjoy while you I guess care about newer background, or all background or something.

So like I said, there shouldn't be a problem with just giving rules that you like since the background in the Codex is of negligible value, which would include the name as the name and background are what create "recognition". Which actually circles round back to my and Tanith's point of "who cares what name is slapped on it and what background is in it as long as it has something people like for rules?"

[Rain]

Because otherwise it's counts-as. Again, I would be fine with Codex Legions containing a Terror Attack doctrine that never explicitly mentions Night Lords. What is suboptimal for me is Codex Renegade Nobodies that contains Terror type rules. By the way, I would still use Codex Renegade Nobodies in this case, hell I use the BL supplement now becuase I find the wargear much more fun to play with than the bland crap in the base codex, but counts-as still kind of irks me, and I think NL could be better represented by rules written with them in mind, since at least the core principles behind the Legion haven't really changed since the IA. It's still all about quick overwhelming assaults using psychological warfare.

[Wade Garrett]

Oh and I'm probably alone in this, but I also mostly disregard BL stuff on NL in my "mental image" of my army, the NL trilogy were really well written and engrossing stories, but they just didn't fit my mental image of NL. The characters didn't really come off as twisted sadists and murderers, they hardly seemed more cruel than some of the more hardline loyalist chapters (ie Marines Malevolent). Then, as if to address this, various torture scenes are added to the last book, but it just feels a bit disjointed, here Talos is having a conversation with his human slave as if he's an equal, and here he's skinning dudes alive. Cuz evil. Which I guess is why First Heretic is still my favorite ADB book, and possibly BL book period, that thing is a hidden masterpiece.

Xarl, Mercutian, Cyrion and Uzuas weren't sadistic enough, but the book about a Possesed being pony princess sleepover pals with a little blind girl is a hidden masterpiece.

 

Uhhh...

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Oh and I'm probably alone in this, but I also mostly disregard BL stuff on NL in my "mental image" of my army, the NL trilogy were really well written and engrossing stories, but they just didn't fit my mental image of NL. The characters didn't really come off as twisted sadists and murderers, they hardly seemed more cruel than some of the more hardline loyalist chapters (ie Marines Malevolent). Then, as if to address this, various torture scenes are added to the last book, but it just feels a bit disjointed, here Talos is having a conversation with his human slave as if he's an equal, and here he's skinning dudes alive. Cuz evil. Which I guess is why First Heretic is still my favorite ADB book, and possibly BL book period, that thing is a hidden masterpiece.

Xarl, Mercutian, Cyrion and Uzuas weren't sadistic enough, but the book about a Possesed being pony princess sleepover pals with a little blind girl is a hidden masterpiece.

 

Uhhh...

Hey, torturing little girls just isn't the quality the apparent masses apparently want anymore.

[Wade Garrett]

Poor Errant Chapter serfs...

[Kol Saresk]

 

Poor Errant Chapter serfs...

Yep. All those wasted blood condors.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

Poor Errant Chapter serfs...

Yep. All those wasted blood condors.

I wouldn't say wasted. The Red Corsairs were doubtless awed by the examples of Tenth Company's interior decorating skills on display as they plundered the fortress.

[Rain]

That's because it was pre-Heresy so it makes sense. Argel Tal was never a bad guy, and the way he became entangled in the whole Chaos thing was explained well and felt believable to me. As for the litle girl, she was a religious symbol for them, a kind of Joan of Arc, it felt right, and her death also symbolically marked the death of the innocence of the Legion, and their connection to their noble past. Night Lords on the other hand never really had much of a higher ideal, they were always bastards. Mind you if a 40k Word Bearer befriended a human girl I would think that's wrong, but in the 30k context it made sense. Context my friends, context.

[Wade Garrett]

Aquillon and Vendatha would probably take issue with your characterization of Last Angel as "not bad, just misunderstood".

[Brother Heinrich]

See but that's the beauty of those "disjointed" torture scenes, they're sociopaths like Hannibal Lector. They'll sit down to dinner, have impeccable manners, play you a flawless piece of classical music, and then eat your face. 

[Wayniac]

Reading the new Crimson Dawn novel really has me interested in the Slaughter.  I'm about halfway through right now, and WOW.  It's intense so far.

 

 

So far at least, the slaughter on the world of Umidia was a trick of Chaos; the Inquisitor who originally asked for aid to root out a cult was really a daemon (it appears to be of Tzeentch - bird skull head and a robe with shimmering colors) and what they thought were cultists in some perverse ritual were innocent civilians celebrating Imperial saints.  It made them think they were being attacked, while they were really slaughtering women and children, and when the haze was gone it's a "What have we done?" moment as they find all the mutilated bodies of people that they thought were cultists.  It's very tragic.

 

 

Also, the Dark Angels are real scumbags:

 

 

In the beginning the "Lord Inquisitor" asks for aid and the Hawk Lords, Angels Encarmine and Dark Angels all commit forces.  When the Crimson Sabres commit their entire chapter, the rest all withdraw and Master Gabriel of the Deathwing says something to the effect of "I refuse to fight alongside the curs of the Crimson Sabres" and withdraws

 

[Kol Saresk]

 

That's because it was pre-Heresy so it makes sense. Argel Tal was never a bad guy, and the way he became entangled in the whole Chaos thing was explained well and felt believable to me. As for the litle girl, she was a religious symbol for them, a kind of Joan of Arc, it felt right, and her death also symbolically marked the death of the innocence of the Legion, and their connection to their noble past. Night Lords on the other hand never really had much of a higher ideal, they were always bastards. Mind you if a 40k Word Bearer befriended a human girl I would think that's wrong, but in the 30k context it made sense. Context my friends, context.

I was referring to the little girl Cyrion dragged kicking and screaming from under her bed in Void Stalker.

[Phoros]

Also, the Dark Angels are real scumbags

 

Tell us something we don't know. :P

[Kol Saresk]

Reading the new Crimson Dawn novel really has me interested in the Slaughter. I'm about halfway through right now, and WOW. It's intense so far.

 

 

So far at least, the slaughter on the world of Umidia was a trick of Chaos; the Inquisitor who originally asked for aid to root out a cult was really a daemon (it appears to be of Tzeentch - bird skull head and a robe with shimmering colors) and what they thought were cultists in some perverse ritual were innocent civilians celebrating Imperial saints. It made them think they were being attacked, while they were really slaughtering women and children, and when the haze was gone it's a "What have we done?" moment as they find all the mutilated bodies of people that they thought were cultists. It's very tragic.

 

 

Also, the Dark Angels are real scumbags:

 

 

In the beginning the "Lord Inquisitor" asks for aid and the Hawk Lords, Angels Encarmine and Dark Angels all commit forces. When the Crimson Sabres commit their entire chapter, the rest all withdraw and Master Gabriel of the Deathwing says something to the effect of "I refuse to fight alongside the curs of the Crimson Sabres" and withdraws

 

So wait, C Z Dunn is completely retconning Dark Vengeance?

[Wayniac]

 

Reading the new Crimson Dawn novel really has me interested in the Slaughter. I'm about halfway through right now, and WOW. It's intense so far.

 

 

So far at least, the slaughter on the world of Umidia was a trick of Chaos; the Inquisitor who originally asked for aid to root out a cult was really a daemon (it appears to be of Tzeentch - bird skull head and a robe with shimmering colors) and what they thought were cultists in some perverse ritual were innocent civilians celebrating Imperial saints. It made them think they were being attacked, while they were really slaughtering women and children, and when the haze was gone it's a "What have we done?" moment as they find all the mutilated bodies of people that they thought were cultists. It's very tragic.

 

 

Also, the Dark Angels are real scumbags:

 

 

In the beginning the "Lord Inquisitor" asks for aid and the Hawk Lords, Angels Encarmine and Dark Angels all commit forces. When the Crimson Sabres commit their entire chapter, the rest all withdraw and Master Gabriel of the Deathwing says something to the effect of "I refuse to fight alongside the curs of the Crimson Sabres" and withdraws

 

So wait, C Z Dunn is completely retconning Dark Vengeance?

 

It seems that way... 

 

 

They are physically haunted as well, like the ghosts kill their serfs and do poltergeist-like things, so it's basically Paranormal Activity 40,000.  Kranon also accuses his brother (the future Helbrute) of cowardice for not responding for three days and after a council has him thrown in jail.  Also the Chief Librarian, Mannon, was possessed by the daemon.  The novel ends abruptly though, lots of paranoia and "Don't trust anyone", but it doesn't really show them transitioning to the Crimson Slaughter, it ends with the Scout Captain and two scouts training just in case somebody else goes berserk and comes after them while the fleet is in the Warp.

 

So in effect they were distrusted by other Chapters (reasons not really given, however the Scout Captain who is the protagonist has a chaos power sword taken from an Emperor's Children champion, which seems to be frowned on although the blade doesn't appear to do anything) and were tricked by a daemon to fall from grace for some unknown reason.

 

Maybe the codex has more info, because right now they are basically the tragic heroes, very Anakin Skywalker-esque.

 

 

[Rain]

The killing of the little girl in the last book was exactly the ad hoc show of "see they're real Night Lords" I was referring to. I mean what's worse than killing a (gasp) Little. Girl. Eh, I didn't really buy it, especially after the protection medallion bit in the first book, but your mileage may vary, overall I thought the books were a lot of fun and the characters were very engrossingly written, I just compartmentalize it away from my concept of Night Lords. Interestingly, I found Prince of Crows to be much closer to my mental image of NL, so maybe I just want my NL autistic like Sevatar, who knows. Anyway this is kind of neither here nor there, the books don't have all that much to do with hypothetical rules.

[Scribe]

 

Reading the new Crimson Dawn novel really has me interested in the Slaughter. I'm about halfway through right now, and WOW. It's intense so far.

 

 

So far at least, the slaughter on the world of Umidia was a trick of Chaos; the Inquisitor who originally asked for aid to root out a cult was really a daemon (it appears to be of Tzeentch - bird skull head and a robe with shimmering colors) and what they thought were cultists in some perverse ritual were innocent civilians celebrating Imperial saints. It made them think they were being attacked, while they were really slaughtering women and children, and when the haze was gone it's a "What have we done?" moment as they find all the mutilated bodies of people that they thought were cultists. It's very tragic.

 

 

Also, the Dark Angels are real scumbags:

 

 

In the beginning the "Lord Inquisitor" asks for aid and the Hawk Lords, Angels Encarmine and Dark Angels all commit forces. When the Crimson Sabres commit their entire chapter, the rest all withdraw and Master Gabriel of the Deathwing says something to the effect of "I refuse to fight alongside the curs of the Crimson Sabres" and withdraws

 

So wait, C Z Dunn is completely retconning Dark Vengeance?

 

I would be shocked...if I didnt expect every release to retcon this poor setting.