codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Brother Ambroz]

 

Interestingly, I found Prince of Crows to be much closer to my mental image of NL, so maybe I just want my NL autistic like Sevatar, who knows.

Me too. He's just the ideal Night Lord I think.

[Wade Garrett]

The killing of the little girl in the last book was exactly the ad hoc show of "see they're real Night Lords" I was referring to. I mean what's worse than killing a (gasp) Little. Girl. Eh, I didn't really buy it, especially after the protection medallion bit in the first book...

Because recognizing that certain slaves have a value beyond momentary amusement/extra paint for one's armor means that Tenth Claw must spend all its free time snuggling orphans and

delivering fruitbaskets to the elderly on the crew decks.

 

Of course, I'm sure there are some Night Lord warbands who do nothing but giggle to one another as they eat their mortal retinue's entrails.

 

Those are the ones that wind up stranded in the void between worlds because they ate their Navigators and astropaths, then their ship falls apart around them because they ate all the servitors and tech-thralls tasked with keeping it running, and as soon as life support breaths its last their goose is cooked because the artificers who were supposed to keep their armor systems functional were-you guessed it, eaten.

 

And Sevatar is an ideal Night Lord? The big fluffy teddy bear who keeps a bunch of people around just because they look like his family?

 

He's practically a Salamander, the cuddly old softy.

[Rain]

Yeah, but applying logic to 40k generally and Chaos warbands specifically doesn't really work. I mean there are still World Eaters around and their vehicles etc still work despite them all being rather--loopy and absent minded about things that don't involve decapitation and dismemberment. It's just another angle on the background, and I don't fault people for liking it, the stories were a lot of fun, they just weren't as consistent with the prior descriptions. As for Sevatar and the people reminding him of his family thing, eh, he's still kind of a to them. As he is to everyone. If there's anything that bothers me about him (besides him being a little *too* badass) it's the foreshadowing of him becoming a founding member of the Grey Knights. Which, I would bet my third warpspawned nut was at least planned, and will probably be written in. Just. You. Watch.

Edit: Also, I never said Sevatar was a "perfect" Night Lord, that was someone else, however I do find him much more fitting of my internal image of Night Lords than Talos or Cyrion. But whatever, I'm not the NL guru, I'm just another fan.

[Brother Ambroz]

Wade- Except for the part where he, ya know murders most of the Cryoptera. (sp?)

[minigun762]

If we want to discuss "who is the better Night Lord", lets take it into a new topic.

 

Thanks!

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

Reading the new Crimson Dawn novel really has me interested in the Slaughter. I'm about halfway through right now, and WOW. It's intense so far.

 

 

So far at least, the slaughter on the world of Umidia was a trick of Chaos; the Inquisitor who originally asked for aid to root out a cult was really a daemon (it appears to be of Tzeentch - bird skull head and a robe with shimmering colors) and what they thought were cultists in some perverse ritual were innocent civilians celebrating Imperial saints. It made them think they were being attacked, while they were really slaughtering women and children, and when the haze was gone it's a "What have we done?" moment as they find all the mutilated bodies of people that they thought were cultists. It's very tragic.

 

 

Also, the Dark Angels are real scumbags:

 

 

In the beginning the "Lord Inquisitor" asks for aid and the Hawk Lords, Angels Encarmine and Dark Angels all commit forces. When the Crimson Sabres commit their entire chapter, the rest all withdraw and Master Gabriel of the Deathwing says something to the effect of "I refuse to fight alongside the curs of the Crimson Sabres" and withdraws

 

So wait, C Z Dunn is completely retconning Dark Vengeance?

I would be shocked...if I didnt expect every release to retcon this poor setting.

But typically a retcon is due to another author's view on the fluff. This just seems like the same author doesn't feel the need to stick to his own story.

[A D-B]

By which logic you could also glaze over anything in a new NL supplement that you didn't like, and I'd get the rules and recognition that I do like, so you needn't worry about what happened to IH or BT happening to us which is my entire point, thank you for making it. My current army is NL as well, and to me it's all painted on terror marking. My marines aren't at a rave, they aren't covered in flashing lights, it's part of the paint scheme. I would similarly plan to ignore any other idiocy GW comes up with fluffwise, but I'd imagine the rules at least would more or less follow established themes as they did for BL.

 

Oh and I'm probably alone in this, but I also mostly disregard BL stuff on NL in my "mental image" of my army, the NL trilogy were really well written and engrossing stories, but they just didn't fit my mental image of NL. The characters didn't really come off as twisted sadists and murderers, they hardly seemed more cruel than some of the more hardline loyalist chapters (ie Marines Malevolent). Then, as if to address this, various torture scenes are added to the last book, but it just feels a bit disjointed, here Talos is having a conversation with his human slave as if he's an equal, and here he's skinning dudes alive. Cuz evil.

In fairness, it's not "cuz evil". There was simply no need, drive, or point to torturing a civilian population until Talos was grievously offended and wanted a purer, classic war against helpless enemies who were invading sacred ground. The gloves came off.

 

See but that's the beauty of those "disjointed" torture scenes, they're sociopaths like Hannibal Lector. They'll sit down to dinner, have impeccable manners, play you a flawless piece of classical music, and then eat your face.

Very much so. It's simple, realistic disassociation. You see it a lot in sociopaths and the various breeds of psychopathy - most recently it was in The Walking Dead, where you see loyal, ostensibly pleasant, otherwise sympathetic characters ready to murder someone because "They're not one of us".

 

(EDIT: Also, a real world factual example edited out by minigun.)

 

Anyone that isn't part of their warband is meaningless, and not subject to their moral codes or part of their sphere of consideration.

[Dammeron]

On a more positive note, I'm personally very much looking forward to the Crimson Slaughter supplement. I don't think it in any way indicates that Games Workshop won't eventually get around to doing supplements for the established traitor legions, as some of the more -frankly- hysterical responses here seem to imply. I mean, for Slaanesh's sake, the first supplement was for the Black Legion; the prime and principle traitor legion. I, for one, like the fact that some of the lesser known war bands and niche renegades are getting some attention; becoming enshrined in the background as more than mere colour schemes. And, given the standard of background material in the Black Legion book, that is what I am looking forward to most of all. Thus far, I quite like the way the Crimson Slaughter have been portrayed; the notion of a chapter cursed by Khorne rather than dedicated to Him entirely is intriguing, as is the possibility that their corruption comes about as a matter of them fulfilling a Space Marine chapter's given duty rather than any incipient corruption or psychosis.

 

It will be very, very good to see supplements for the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and their ilk. For all the problems I have with the core Chaos Space Marine codex (which are, by the by, exaggerated to the Nth degree in this echo chamber), the supplements are taking it in the right direction when it comes to potential army builds, variation in war gear etc. But I'd also be extremely happy to see supplements on, say, The Flawless Host, The Purge, The Scourged etc. I like the expansion of background and potential for creating one's own war band that they represent.

[daboarder]

On a more positive note, I'm personally very much looking forward to the Crimson Slaughter supplement. I don't think it in any way indicates that Games Workshop won't eventually get around to doing supplements for the established traitor legions,

Honestly, ideas on CS aside, I don't get this? What actual events in the last 10 years give you this thought, because most of us are basing our belief on the previous behavior of this company.

 

Fool me once and all that

[Kol Saresk]

Because previous behavior also includes 3.5. Unless I'm wrong.

 

Question: What exactly is on topic in a topic that starts off with "GW hates us"?

[daboarder]

and they've been kicking us for it ever since

[Dammeron]

Black legion supplement. A legion supplement. First supplement for the Chaos Codex. There.

[Clone]

As much as I'd like a Legion supplement I must admit that I'm looking forward to reading the new fluff in this supplement. It'll be really interesting to see how an entire chapter becomes the baroque monsters in Dark Vengeance. Also, I won't have to ally with daemons to get divination. A sorcerer that could grant my obliterators ignores cover and rerolls to hit. Nice.

[Yogi]

Black legion supplement. A legion supplement. First supplement for the Chaos Codex. There.

 

Even more unnecessary than the CS supp. We'll see what they bring out in future. But 2 for 2 of largely pointless supps. 

 

There.

[daboarder]

As much as I'd like a Legion supplement I must admit that I'm looking forward to reading the new fluff in this supplement. It'll be really interesting to see how an entire chapter becomes the baroque monsters in Dark Vengeance. Also, I won't have to ally with daemons to get divination. A sorcerer that could grant my obliterators ignores cover and rerolls to hit. Nice.

yeah the potential for ML 3 Div has me excited.

 

almost as much as seeing if I can make Dark apostles viable buy giving them a 2+ save and an aura of dark glory

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Black legion supplement. A legion supplement. First supplement for the Chaos Codex. There.

 

Even more unnecessary than the CS supp. We'll see what they bring out in future. But 2 for 2 of largely pointless supps. 

 

There.

 

 

How is the Black Legion pointless as a supplement if the base Codex is just supposed to be your average run of the mill Warband, minus all the stuff they apparently threw away when they stopped being loyal?

[Wayniac]

I'm hoping they actually explain more about the transition. The WDW article from Jeremy Vetock said there's some stuff in the codex that makes it clear that the Crimson Slaughter might have been tragic, but they have completely fallen to evil and there's no redeeming qualities about them.

Also is here is the rundown of Crimson Sabres leaders at the point of their entry into the Warp:

CHAPTER MASTER

Sevastus Kranon (becomes Kranon the Relentless)

CHIEF LIBRARIAN

Xastus Mannon

CHAPLAIN (Presumably the High Reclusiarch but not stated)

(First name unknown) Okrark

1ST COMPANY

Dzargon Draznicht (becomes Draznicht the Chosen champion, guess the Warp made him weaker )

2ND COMPANY

Sevarion Kranon (stripped of rank and imprisoned for "cowardice", later becomes the Helbrute Mortis Metalikus)

3RD COMPANY

Braglan Ragnald

4TH COMPANY

Eli Dzarton

5TH COMPANY

(First name unknown) Shergon

6TH COMPANY

(First name unknown) Barkman

7TH COMPANY

(First name unknown) Kiestor

8TH COMPANY

(First name unknown) Nthricar

9th COMPANY

(First name unknown) Urzoz

10th COMPANY

Anzo Riegler (temporary, formerly Scout Sergeant)

(First name unknown) Murdok (former captain, severely wounded and recuperating, probably killed when the Crimson Sabres are excommunicated)

It looks like virtually the entire chapter went into the Warp, only a few Scouts and the former Scout Captain were left on their homeworld Drogsh to recover from serious injuries.

[Excessus]

That's the power of chaos allright, minus a wound and attack for stepping ocer the border... :D

[Yogi]

 

 

Black legion supplement. A legion supplement. First supplement for the Chaos Codex. There.

 

Even more unnecessary than the CS supp. We'll see what they bring out in future. But 2 for 2 of largely pointless supps. 

 

There.

 

How is the Black Legion pointless as a supplement if the base Codex is just supposed to be your average run of the mill Warband, minus all the stuff they apparently threw away when they stopped being loyal?

 

Black legion has always been the vanilla list. Until their supp. Its like giving the ultras a supp, if the SM codex had no traits. Pointless.

[Wade Garrett]

Well. Now it makes sense that the Sabres turned to Chaos, they had a [redacted] Dark Apostle as captain of their Tenth Company.

[Wayniac]

Well. Now it makes sense that the Sabres turned to Chaos, they had a [redacted] Dark Apostle as captain of their Tenth Company.

 

Oops, that was a typo on my part.  The former 10th company captain was named Murdok

 

What I found most interesting was 

 

 

In Dark Vengeance, there really was a cult on the world, and after the Sabres killed them the curse took effect and they went berserk and killed everybody else; in Crimson Dawn it's strongly hinted that there was no cult at all, it was just the daemon's machinations that made the Sabres view all the villagers as cultists and slaughter them mercilessly.

 

The motive was never explained though.  In Dark Vengeance it was to get Space Marine blood to summon the daemon, but Crimson Dawn has no mention of that or anything other than the Tzeentchian daemon screwing with them; there's a theme in the novel that "Change is coming" and it's implied that the daemon called for Space Marines for the specific reason to corrupt them, which is terrifying when you think about it because before the Sabres committed it was going to be three companies of Hawk Lords, 500 Angels Encarmine, several unknowns (the text mentions additional offers being withdrawn but doesn't name them) and 200 Dark Angels, all of which withdrew when the Crimson Sabres pledged their aid.  It was actually kind of interesting to see the tension between Chapters.

 

Also a funny line is after Gabriel calls the Crimson Sabres "base curs" and basically tells the Inquisitor to think twice before accepting aid from "such renegades" there's a part that reads how the other captains start angrily stating where they would like to stick their blades into Gabriel xD

 

[Sception]

Black legion has always been the vanilla list. Until their supp. Its like giving the ultras a supp, if the SM codex had no traits. Pointless.

Mechanically pointless, perhaps, but sincethe main focus of the supplements is fluff, with mechanics a vague afterthought at best, and fixing mechanical gaps in the parent book not even on the radar, I'd hardly say the supplement was pointless overall.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

 

 

 

Black legion supplement. A legion supplement. First supplement for the Chaos Codex. There.

Even more unnecessary than the CS supp. We'll see what they bring out in future. But 2 for 2 of largely pointless supps.

 

There.

How is the Black Legion pointless as a supplement if the base Codex is just supposed to be your average run of the mill Warband, minus all the stuff they apparently threw away when they stopped being loyal?

Black legion has always been the vanilla list. Until their supp. Its like giving the ultras a supp, if the SM codex had no traits. Pointless.

Then its never really been a Legion list before, has it? Or were only Traitor armies allowed in the 3.5 Codex? If so, it'd be weird that any Renegades at all were mentioned in the book.

[Yogi]

@kol I don't really get what your trying to say. BL has always been the vanilla list even in 3.5. You could field renegades since forever but it hasn't ever really been the focus.

 

Renegades were in 2nd ed too. GW just put more thought into it then. From Huron entry 2nd ed chaos codex.

http://i.imgur.com/x5h0O4y.png

[Wayniac]

Ah back when the Corsairs weren't a single group but various renegades who kept their old colors and repainted part of it red.