codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Trevak Dal]

I just wish I could get the skull from the BL book (Eternal Warrior), Axe and Burning Brand from Base Codex, and the Arty armor+ from the new hotness for an ULTRA BADASS Juggeraxelord.

 

On the positive side, I'm drawing up plans to have "The Four Juggerlords of the Apocalypse"  (Standard AxeLord/Burning Brand, MurderSword/Power Axe, Skull/Hand/Shiv Lord, and Armor/Sword/Maul Lord.)  It'll be Awesome, and I'll be able to use all the stuff I got.

 

Heh, an ICP reference would be funny, like painting their helmets white and black similar to their designs-but I don't know if anyone would get that reference around here and I really don't care for their music.  

 

I want to buy some Wraithguard to cut up and put on their bases, wraith units give my chaos army fits.

 

My tau go, "more wraithbone for the Hunter's Hall!"

[Trevak Dal]

I love that style Wayniac, but I wanted the 'core' of my army to be the Red/Black new hotness.  Hmm, I may eventually see about making a unit of Terminators with only Power Fists and Combi Bolters, I came in second in a smallish Halo 4 Tournament so I got some money to burn.

[Dammeron]

 

Black legion supplement. A legion supplement. First supplement for the Chaos Codex. There.

 

Even more unnecessary than the CS supp. We'll see what they bring out in future. But 2 for 2 of largely pointless supps. 

 

There.

 

Whether you consider it pointless or underwhelming or whatever, the fact of the matter is: IT EXISTS; games workshop put it out; a legion specific supplement with legion specific rules (however under-baked). The original contention was: the histrionic nonsense concerning GW apparently "abandoning" legions in favour of lesser known renegade warbands, which is clearly and evidently not the case thanks to the BL codex's existence.

[Rain]

Yeah except it's a Legion that is now mostly composed of renegades. It clearly states that most of the original SoH were wiped out, and that the BL is more of a coalition under a common purpose than a Legion in the original sense. And yeah, blah blah blah, there are renegades from other factions in every Legion, but that's the BL's whole thing, rengades from other factions aren't an interesting anomaly, they are the entire soul of the faction. To be honest I've actually come around to this idea, as it gives a nice foil to the totally nihilistic warbands like Night Lords and Emperor's Children who fight because they think it's fun and for no greater purpose (remember that even in the Battle of Terra, the EC attacked pointless civillian targets for fun instead of aiding in the siege, unless this gets retconned).

 

So, if you get sick of killing for fun and pointless depravity and care about the actual overthrow of the Imperium, you join the Black Legion and get a part to play in Abaddon's master plan. Which makes the BL more of an ideology than an actual Legion, they share no common history or method of warfare, or anything like that, they are a Legion of disparate renegades joined in the name of common purpose. So you know--exactly what us "histrionics" didn't want more of.

[Scribe]

Because previous behavior also includes 3.5. Unless I'm wrong.

 

Question: What exactly is on topic in a topic that starts off with "GW hates us"?

 

Should open the rant thread I guess.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Because previous behavior also includes 3.5. Unless I'm wrong.

 

Question: What exactly is on topic in a topic that starts off with "GW hates us"?

 

Should open the rant thread I guess.

 

Don't hold your breath.

[Rain]

Yeah, it obviously won't happen, I think that we all understand that. However, this being Chaos Ascendant, the great bellowing and gnashing of teeth simply spills over into (all of the) other threads. I do love this forum thought. It's like a big angry family yelling at each other over a hellturkey dinner.

[d@n]

But think how upset everyone would be if Gw got rid of marks and icons and every unit had to have a legion tactic undivided nurgel khorne ect for there whole army. The problem isn't with rules. It's that the currant codex was written using 5th ed point costs and no supplement is going to fix that. The closest they could come would be to write a renahade supplement for the vanilla dex that allowed you to take marks demonic possession ect

[Kol Saresk]

Yogi: If the Black Legion uses the base list just like all the other Renegades, then there never has been a "Black Legion List", just a base list, the four cults and then the four "other guys". Never a Black Legion List. Kin of funny when you think about it. So the BL Supplement is actually a first step in creating an actual BL List.

Yeah except it's a Legion that is now mostly composed of renegades. It clearly states that most of the original SoH were wiped out, and that the BL is more of a coalition under a common purpose than a Legion in the original sense. And yeah, blah blah blah, there are renegades from other factions in every Legion, but that's the BL's whole thing, rengades from other factions aren't an interesting anomaly, they are the entire soul of the faction. To be honest I've actually come around to this idea, as it gives a nice foil to the totally nihilistic warbands like Night Lords and Emperor's Children who fight because they think it's fun and for no greater purpose (remember that even in the Battle of Terra, the EC attacked pointless civillian targets for fun instead of aiding in the siege, unless this gets retconned).

So, if you get sick of killing for fun and pointless depravity and care about the actual overthrow of the Imperium, you join the Black Legion and get a part to play in Abaddon's master plan. Which makes the BL more of an ideology than an actual Legion, they share no common history or method of warfare, or anything like that, they are a Legion of disparate renegades joined in the name of common purpose. So you know--exactly what us "histrionics" didn't want more of.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't that always been the case? Abaddon always reform the Legion just at its lowest? the low numbers officially hit print in the Index Astartes article so it isn't as though it is actual new, just more "in your face".

Although IIRC, 3.5, which was published afterwards I believed, makes it sound nicer by dressing it as reunification.

EDIT: Funnily enough, the IA article makes mention of "Those warbands who fought for Abaddon" in the battle-cry section. Just a funny tidbit given the warbands shown in the Black Legion supplement that don't fight for Abaddon.

[Valaskjalf]

On a side note and probably completely against the grain of the current discussion........I'm assuming the Possessed marines in this supplement are "unmarkable" and that you cant give the higher I or T ? In fact, if you run the CS as primary would ALL units not be prohibited from having marks? Perhaps Im just confused, but to me it makes sense as they don't worship any of the Gods and you cant have Plague Marines with the MoS ie. anyway...

 

Am I totally missing the mark on this? Sorry actually didnt intend the pun

[Kol Saresk]

On a side note and probably completely against the grain of the current discussion........I'm assuming the Possessed marines in this supplement are "unmarkable" and that you cant give the higher I or T ? In fact, if you run the CS as primary would ALL units not be prohibited from having marks? Perhaps Im just confused, but to me it makes sense as they don't worship any of the Gods and you cant have Plague Marines with the MoS ie. anyway...

 

Am I totally missing the mark on this? Sorry actually didnt intend the pun

I would say "No". One of the elements of the current background is that you can be Marked without actually worshipping, a la Cyrion, who never once mentions Slaanesh in any way, shape or form but nonetheless has been Marked by him/her/it/both(?). The other thing is that what little background is presented in the Dark Vengeance novella does mention the striking of deals with various powers. The appearance that was given(at least until Crimson Sabres) was that they were cursed, but then in every effort to silence the curse, they were willing to do anything from slaughtering Imperial worlds(Dark Vengeance) to sending an entire horde of Possessed onto a shrine world for ritual defilement(Index Chaotica: Possessed) to going into the Eye of Terror and fighting other warbands and champions to curry favor in an effort to find out what they could do to remove the curse(Dark Vengeance; again).

[Wayniac]

 

On a side note and probably completely against the grain of the current discussion........I'm assuming the Possessed marines in this supplement are "unmarkable" and that you cant give the higher I or T ? In fact, if you run the CS as primary would ALL units not be prohibited from having marks? Perhaps Im just confused, but to me it makes sense as they don't worship any of the Gods and you cant have Plague Marines with the MoS ie. anyway...

 

Am I totally missing the mark on this? Sorry actually didnt intend the pun

I would say "No". One of the elements of the current background is that you can be Marked without actually worshipping, a la Cyrion, who never once mentions Slaanesh in any way, shape or form but nonetheless has been Marked by him/her/it/both(?). The other thing is that what little background is presented in the Dark Vengeance novella does mention the striking of deals with various powers. The appearance that was given(at least until Crimson Sabres) was that they were cursed, but then in every effort to silence the curse, they were willing to do anything from slaughtering Imperial worlds(Dark Vengeance) to sending an entire horde of Possessed onto a shrine world for ritual defilement(Index Chaotica: Possessed) to going into the Eye of Terror and fighting other warbands and champions to curry favor in an effort to find out what they could do to remove the curse(Dark Vengeance; again).

 

Until the most recent novel (which just rewrites some of the backstory and the events leading up to their fall) they killed things to silence the voices/ghosts, and it was implied that originally this was done to Chaos-inhabited worlds so they were killing "bad guys" and at some point they got corrupted into "Let's kill everything".  Dark Vengeance indicates that the Hellfire Stone will cure the voices, but it also strongly hints that's a lie designed to just get the Crimson Slaughter to get the artefact in the first place.

 

That's kinda why I'm hoping the supplement goes into more detail, because right now they're basically going the Darth Vader Episode III route - straight from regret and "What have I done?" to "Meh time to kill some children" with nothing in between.  The end of Crimson Dawn has them more or less distraught and looking to atone (while covering up what really transpired), and then Dark Vengeance (I haven't listened to Ascension of Balthasar which might explain more) they're full on psychopathic genocidal madmen.  While there's the whole "corrupting influence of the Warp" they've only been in the Warp for some 70 years.  Right now it's more a vibe of a person who kills someone accidentally, covers the murder up and then decides to go on a killing spree to feel better about it.

[RolandTHTG]

Apparently the Crimson Slaughter will have a version of the Farsight 'Bodyguard' rules. 
http://www.blacklibrary.com/new-at-bl/The-Crimson-Slaughter.html
mentions that there will be ways to upgrade guys to represent certain characters, with set relics and bonuses. 

Interestingly, it make the Possessed sound more like Death Company than traditional Possesed, guys who lose control and start changing. 
 

 

Possessed work in a slightly different way for the Crimson Slaughter as well. Rather than representing an unholy union of Daemon and Chaos Space Marines freely entered into, the Possessed of the Crimson Slaughter are those warriors whose haunting daemonic voices have temporarily taken control of their forms. This gives them some slightly different rules, as well as making them more numerous than in a standard Chaos Space Marines warband. 

(Anti-)Heroes 
One of the great things about the Crimson Slaughter is that they already have a couple of named heroes with miniatures, available in the Dark Vengeance boxed set. As well as new background on these dread champions, the supplement also provides you with new rules in the form of upgrades and relics. Draznicht, Champion of the Ravagers, makes for an excellent leader for your Chosen squads, whereas Kranon the Relentless, fully kitted out with his impressive new assortment of wargear and relics, takes his place amongst the most formidable Chaos Lords in the galaxy.

[Wayniac]

 

Apparently the Crimson Slaughter will have a version of the Farsight 'Bodyguard' rules. 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/new-at-bl/The-Crimson-Slaughter.html

mentions that there will be ways to upgrade guys to represent certain characters, with set relics and bonuses. 

 

Interestingly, it make the Possessed sound more like Death Company than traditional Possesed, guys who lose control and start changing. 

 

 

Possessed work in a slightly different way for the Crimson Slaughter as well. Rather than representing an unholy union of Daemon and Chaos Space Marines freely entered into, the Possessed of the Crimson Slaughter are those warriors whose haunting daemonic voices have temporarily taken control of their forms. This gives them some slightly different rules, as well as making them more numerous than in a standard Chaos Space Marines warband. 

 

(Anti-)Heroes 

One of the great things about the Crimson Slaughter is that they already have a couple of named heroes with miniatures, available in the Dark Vengeance boxed set. As well as new background on these dread champions, the supplement also provides you with new rules in the form of upgrades and relics. Draznicht, Champion of the Ravagers, makes for an excellent leader for your Chosen squads, whereas Kranon the Relentless, fully kitted out with his impressive new assortment of wargear and relics, takes his place amongst the most formidable Chaos Lords in the galaxy.

 

Hmm that makes sense.  The ghosts in the novel possess people (one possessed the Librarian, or at least it's implied) and give them more strength and the like.  What makes that more interesting is that in the novel at least, the possession isn't visible (voice changes though so I'm imagining sort of a "talk with two voices" kind of thing).  Ergo that would mean that you could field Possessed that didn't look like the standard possessed?

 

I'm intrigued by this part (emphasis mine):

 

 

There are new rules to allow you to tailor your Chaos Space Marine miniatures collection to better represent an army of Crimson Slaughter on the battlefield. The Crimson Slaughter are a haunted force, constantly beset by voices from beyond the veil. An army of Crimson Slaughter gains a few new rules to represent this

 

I wonder if that means there's more than just possessed as Troops?  Unless they count Warlord Traits as "rules"

[Ammonius]

I've gotta say, I like the art in that preview. I also like how they just come out and say it: "Red is the new Black"

 

While I am not auto-preordering this, as I have with past Chaos releases, if the mechanical differences are interesting enough, I can see myself working in some not-CS in a different paintjob to be a part of or to run alongside my main chaos forces.

[Kol Saresk]

I just want that cover art.

 

Still, possibly rules for the entire army? I wonder if this is why it was first rumored as Codex Crimson Slaughter, not Crimson Slaughter Codex Supplement.

[RolandTHTG]

@Wayniac 
I'm betting that it is mostly warlord traits, but probably a couple of relics show the "voices" too. 

I'd actually be really interested in a "normal possessed" as that would just make my current "assault Noise Marine unit" really fun. 

[Wayniac]

I just want that cover art.

 

Still, possibly rules for the entire army? I wonder if this is why it was first rumored as Codex Crimson Slaughter, not Crimson Slaughter Codex Supplement.

 

Depends on what they count "rules" as.  The rumored contents were the same old 2 pages of rules/traits/relics from other supplements, so it's not looking like it's more than that.  

 

RE: The possessed, I guess that's kinda cheating but at the same time they are possessed by ghosts, not daemons.  It's quite literally like the end of Paranormal Activity 1 where the girl has super strength and all that spooky stuff.  So in actuality having them with demon wings and other mutations isn't true to their fluff, since they aren't mutated they're haunted.

[Kol Saresk]

Well, I did say possibly. :P

 

But actually, since the blog says "daemonic voices" and, if I understand Crimson Sabers correctly, the voices aren't really those of the people of Umidia since those people were innocents and the voices were trying to get them to (possibly) summon a daemon, then they aren't really the voices of ghosts. At least, not the ghosts of that first planet.

[Wayniac]

Well, I did say possibly.

But actually, since the blog says "daemonic voices" and, if I understand Crimson Sabers correctly, the voices aren't really those of the people of Umidia since those people were innocents and the voices were

trying to get them to (possibly) summon a daemon, then they aren't really the voices of ghosts. At least, not the ghosts of that first planet.

That's where the novels differ... Crimson Dawn makes it clear it is the voices of the slain people (voices asking "Why are you doing this?" and "What did we do to justify this slaughter?"). Dark Vengeance indicates that it's something more sinister than that.

The daemon (possessing the Chief Librarian) talks a lot about "the coming change" and "You and your brothers become the very things you despise". So it seems like the whole thing was orchestrated by Chaos to get the Crimson Sabres to fall from grace, because everything falls in place:

Anzo Riegler gets promoted to Scout Captain...

... just in time for the distress signal from the "Inquisitor", and just in time to cast his vote that the Chapter should aid ...

... and decides to cover up the atrocities rather than tell everybody else to stop ...

... and who casts the deciding vote to imprison Sevarion Kranon, who was one of the only people to side with him

[Tenebris]

I find it interesting how the daemons plot to bring the Crimson Sabres at their side, it is fun to read what a greater daemon with some patrons behind is capable to orchestrate. I must say that I have found the novel quite entertaining.

[Kol Saresk]

@Wayniac: Exactly. When Dark Vengeance was first, the Balethu were Khorne worshippers and their prayers to Khorne were answered with them haunting the Crimson Sabers, resulting in their downfall as killing planets was pretty much the only way they could shut up the voices, even if only for a little while.

 

But as you said, Crimson Dawn makes it the voices of actual innocents.

 

So somewhere there has to be a transition. Or CZ Dunn just needs to stick to being an editor rather than an author. Or a third possibility is that, as Black Library seems to be suggesting, the voices are daemonic, not spectral, and at first it was daemons playing the innocent victims but then as time wore on, they then switched perspectives in an effort to keep the Crimson Slaughter always seeking "salvation" with reverse psychology. I dunno. You'd think an editor would be more capable of managing inconsistencies.

[Wayniac]

@Wayniac: Exactly. When Dark Vengeance was first, the Balethu were Khorne worshippers and their prayers to Khorne were answered with them haunting the Crimson Sabers, resulting in their downfall as killing planets was pretty much the only way they could shut up the voices, even if only for a little while.

 

But as you said, Crimson Dawn makes it the voices of actual innocents.

 

So somewhere there has to be a transition. Or CZ Dunn just needs to stick to being an editor rather than an author. Or a third possibility is that, as Black Library seems to be suggesting, the voices are daemonic, not spectral, and at first it was daemons playing the innocent victims but then as time wore on, they then switched perspectives in an effort to keep the Crimson Slaughter always seeking "salvation" with reverse psychology. I dunno. You'd think an editor would be more capable of managing inconsistencies.

 

Something I just thought about, which could tie them all in together (minus the Khorne thing of course) is this:  

 

It really was a cult, and the illusion is that they slaughtered innocents in order to drive them insane with guilt and hasten the fall (to drive them into the Warp where the rest of the Ruinous Powers could corrupt them)?  Of course, one thing that makes that theory not hold water is the fact that the suspicion of what's going on first is revealed when Riegler is spying on the cult and smells roasting meat and hears children laughing, but doesn't see any children - so that strongly implies that the reality is they were innocents and the glamour was that it was the cult.

 

Also of note is that the Balethu are explicitly said to be a cult that used to be on the world many centuries ago, but it was wiped out by the Ecclesiarchy.

 

I really don't know, but hopefully there's something in the Codex that explains it because right now they feel more like how the Dark Angels are - have a dark secret nobody else can know, and are looking to atone.  Quite the opposite of the bloodthirsty psychopaths they were shown to be in Dark Vengeance.

[Kol Saresk]

Wait, the Balethu voices said they were trying to summon a powerful daemon, right? Well, IIRC, most rituals that involve summoning daemons usually involves a weakening of the veil before the actual summoning. So it is entirely possible that the voices of the children were actually just illusions from the weakening of the veil and -

 

Nevermind. This makes my head hurt. I'll wait for the Supplement. It's what, three days away?

[Wayniac]

Wait, the Balethu voices said they were trying to summon a powerful daemon, right? Well, IIRC, most rituals that involve summoning daemons usually involves a weakening of the veil before the actual summoning. So it is entirely possible that the voices of the children were actually just illusions from the weakening of the veil and -

Nevermind. This makes my head hurt. I'll wait for the Supplement. It's what, three days away?

In Dark Vengeance, yes. No such thing was implied in Crimson Dawn, in fact the daemon (if it was even the same one) was already there and instigating everything - when it first shows up it's on a dias (looking like an Inquisitor) with "cultists" dancing and prancing and engaging in rituals around it, because Riegler's initial thought is that they are just doing some tribal ritual (with whatever god replaced by the Emperor, of course) that they kept around.

It's pretty confusing to be honest, which is why I'm hoping that it's actually explained in the Supplement whether the cult was real or the illusion. I'm really hoping the supplement was at least written with knowledge of the novella, and it doesn't either keep to the original fluff or have a third origin story entirely.

I don't know when it comes out I likely should find out.