codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[cgaolol]

Significantly less crying than the past few days

[Gratan]

Significantly less crying than the past few days

give it time...

[Sception]

At least Krannon has put the stupid relic debate to bed, clearly you can have more than one of them at a time

 

If the CS book says 'to represent Krannon, give your lord X, Y, and Z' then sure, but my understanding is that Kranon is a special character who is specifically assigned equipment.  If so, then he has no baring on the selection of equipment on a generic character.  Generic characters wouldn't gain access to multiple relics if they didn't already have it any more than they would lose access to multiple relics if krannon only had one, and special characters do occasionally have combinations of equipment not legal on regular characters.

 

Otherwise, as far as supplements go, it seems alright.  There are some decent bits of wargear, and the pref enemy on a unit of chosen is nice, better than making them troops, imo, particularly at a cost of 10 points per a unit instead of 2 points per every chosen model taken.  Given the general bonuses, I'd be surprised if there weren't some sort of restriction (no vets?  no marks?), but most of the stuff they could forbid wouldn't be worth taking anyway, apart from maybe MoN on oblits.  That and no daemon weapons is certainly a significant downgrade to the potency of CS daemon princes compared to parent book or even black legion princes.

 

Making possessed troops doesn't really help them, imo, and their new chart strikes me as a lateral move at best - slightly easier time getting to combat due to reliable defensive or speed buffs on the way, but less reliable killing ability when you get there, and the defensive buffs don't help against small arms fire, which is the main threat to units with near terminator cost but only T4, 3+ saves.

 

Overall, it seems better than the black legion book mechanically, and a rules present a far better thematic fit for the described faction.  However, I think the jury is still out on whether it represents any particularly meaningful alternative builds to the parent book.

[daboarder]

Nope he is depicted as a lord with wargear as far as I am aware

[Minsc]

I might have to dust off my CSM after all. 

 

Edit; come to think of it, this all actually sounds too good to be true. Are there no drawbacks to using CS at all, except for not having the CSM-relics? (Like that would be a drawback.)

 

I half expect Marks to be limited, and Veterans gone altogheter.

[Wade Garrett]

So...a bunch of Johnny Come Lately Renegades get access to better Dark Apostles than the honest to Lorgar Word Bearers.

 

Stay classy Games Workshop.

[Rain]

Eh, I'm not even mad. It's actually kind of funny. The only thing that would make this better is if the first page that normally has the faction emblem and tagline is just a picture of a middle finger.

[Sception]

I have to say, I'm more and more tempted to pick this up to run my black legion warband out of it. I've only got one fancy chosen unit, so giving them pref:enemy instead of making them troops seems like a better deal, especially since it would be cheaper points-wise. My warband fluff has my lord possessed, and part of an inner circle of daemon-possessed warriors infiltrating the black legion for their own ends. The bulk of the force is chaos marines made from stolen blood angels gene seed, so requiring them all to be 'veterans of the long war' not especially fit with them, and some half-possessed pseudo-death company could fit pretty well, even if possession wasn't already part of their fluff. Even if they're banned from taking marks or something, it still might be a better mechanical fit for my warband than my own supplement.

 

Then again, I've also got conversions and counts-as for Be'lakor, Huron, and Abaddon in the works, and I don't expect any of them will be playable for the Slaughter outside of allies, so I'll have to think about it.

[Minsc]

I have to say, I'm more and more tempted to pick this up to run my black legion warband out of it. 

 

I wouldn't blame you.

 

Unless there are drawbacks that are yet to be mentioned, I see no reason for regular CSM-players (and to some extent, BL-players) to not use the rules for Crimson Slaughter when playing their regular army instead. Call it count-as if you will, but who cares - loyalists have been doing it for a decade. 

I guess if you're a hardcore fluff-player and/or you really like Black Mace/Axe of Blind Fury there are still reasons to stay away from CS.

 

Personally I'd rather take armywide fear (as someone mentioned, maybe GW has realized how little this rule actually does), the option for cheaper and better chosen, better possessed that are troops as well, a better warlord table and *better relics.

(*I have yet to see the pointcosts on the CS-relics, but unless they are absurdly overpriced, I'd consider them better than those in the CSM-codex. When was the last time you saw someone take the Murdersword/Scrolls of Magnus/Dimensional Key?)

 

[Sception]

None of the CS offensive relics are as good as the axe of blinding fury, or the black mace in the case of daemon princes. Even the spineshiver is better for princes than anything the slaughter have access to. Also, the more I look at the rest of the rumored rules, the more inclined I am to believe they cannot take marks, and possibly not vets either, which would mean no MoN on oblits or lords, no troop plague marines, no T6 bikers, or T6 biker lords or T5 lords without bikes, making the lack of an eternal warrior relic like the BL has a pain. That, and, given that they have their own characters, I doubt they can take characters from the parent book the way Black Legion can, so no huron, no typhus, no Be'Lakor. Cypher at least is available from his formation, even if he can't be taken on his own, but if the the slaughter can't take vets the -1 penalty to your warlord's leadership for fielding cypher would actually come into effect.

 

Granted that's speculation (well, apart from the lack of daemon weapons). If there are no restrictions, then yeah, it's mostly just the CSM book minus daemon weapons, plus divination and artificer armor, which is probably a slightly positive shift, but we'll see.

[daboarder]

its no biggie if they can't take marks to me, the two reasons I am excited are

 

1) the use of a ML3 Div sorcerer, I already have enough troops and a sorcerer in my list to bolt him on as an allied detachment if I need to, and I run mine un-marked (fallen Dark Angel running with my Blood Angels)

 

2) The ability to take a Dark Apostle (hopefully nurgle) that has terminator armour (or an equivalent, 2+/5++), even better the hatred/fearless bubble means that I will occassionaly now be able to switch up my typhus/sorc combo with a Lord/DA one instead, jsut swap the zombies for cultists and run the DA in the middle.

[Sception]

It's not a big deal to me, either, as I already mostly run undivided mostly. Loss of MoN oblits would be about the only thing I'd immediately feel, but I already stopped running mace princes and ax lords following my shift to the black legion book, and never was one for plague marines even acknowledging them to be arguably our best troop choice, so I could certainly see it being a more painful transition for others.

 

Also, if they're not allowed to take marks, then you won't be able to take nurgle on that dark apostle. And if they can't take special characters, then typhus would be out, too, or at least pushed to allied slots.

 

Again, I haven't actually heard anything about restrictions, maybe there aren't any. But after black legions all vets requirement, and seeing the fear handed out to everything here, I have to imagine there will be something coming down the line.

 

We'll see.

[Scribe]

Actually, as Ally fodder that Div Sorc is pretty solid.

[RolandTHTG]

Ok, just had a lookee at my FLGS, where they had a preview copy out.

My own copy has now been ordered.

For the possessed, the 3++ result also gives rending, the others are the same as rumored, so a slight nerf to offense.
There's no restriction on Marks, but only Cult troops are allowed to buy VotLW (there some fluff about cult warbands just showing up to tag along as they start getting a good rep among traitors. ) As far as I could tell there isn't any restriction on characters.
The chosen upgrade specifically upgrades the chosen champ to have Preferred enemy, so it can be sniped out, which is the reason it is so cheap.
No relic is over 30 pts. The divination one gives divination and the spell familiar benefit for only 10 pts more than a familiar.
Kranon is just listed as being equiped with the 3 relics, but is not a special character beyond that.

[Sception]

Actually, as Ally fodder that Div Sorc is pretty solid.

 

Sure is. I think he probably tops the Black Legion solar flare sorc, though I wouldn't necessarily call it a slam dunk.

 

 

Ok, just had a lookee at my FLGS, where they had a preview copy out.

My own copy has now been ordered.

 

For the possessed, the 3++ result also gives rending, the others are the same as rumored, so a slight nerf to offense.

There's no restriction on Marks, but only Cult troops are allowed to buy VotLW (there some fluff about cult warbands just showing up to tag along as they start getting a good rep among traitors. ) As far as I could tell there isn't any restriction on characters.

The chosen upgrade specifically upgrades the chosen champ to have Preferred enemy, so it can be sniped out, which is the reason it is so cheap.

No relic is over 30 pts. The divination one gives divination and the spell familiar benefit for only 10 pts more than a familiar.

Kranon is just listed as being equiped with the 3 relics, but is not a special character beyond that.

 

Thanks for the lowdown.

 

Lack of mark restriction is good news for Nurgle HQs, troop plagues, and Nurgle oblits.  Lack of vets only hurts if you take cypher, and even then mostly only if your warlord is a psyker, so... yeah.  It's sad that vets is such a poor upgrade for the points that being required to take it is a serious drawback, while being forbidden from taking it hardly even matters.

 

Mostly then you only really give up daemon weapons, and gain dvination & artificer armor.  Seems like a decent deal to me.

 

The possessed remain a very lackluster unit.

 

is Preferred enemy a squad upgrade that is lost if the champ is sniped, or is it just on the champ?  Iirc that's one of the upgrades that doesn't transfer to the unit.  If it transfers, then it's still a nice option, but if not, skip it.

 

Nice to hear the relics are all reasonably priced, instead of some of the frankly ludicrous prices on some of the Black Legion artefacts.

 

 

The vet's restriction - is it that no models can have vets except for cult units, or that no models can choose to purchase them given the option other than cults?  That's a distinction that matters when considering whether the slaughter have access to special characters like huron, typhus, and so on.

 

Being a prince of non-marine origin, Be'lakor doesn't have vets, so that wouldn't be an issue for him.  Then again, Black Legion had a specific note allowing them to take parent book characters, so I'd want to see a similar note in the slaughter's book before assuming he was available.  IF they can field him, I very well may make the jump.

[Scribe]

Yeah I ran the solar flare guy a few times, it was underwhelming at best. Divination may be a a tad over done, but its so so reliable.

[Sception]

I mostly like the extra mastery level it grants.  Once or twice the flair was worthwhile, but using invisiblity puppet master or the like in the same turn?  That's more where I've gotten mileage out of it.

[daboarder]

eh, take a solar flare AND a div sorc.

 

Lack of VotLW hurts oblits a little, with that shoddy Ld of theirs and no fearless.

 

other than that, no huge loss

 

nothing over 30 has me even more exited about Dark apostle potential

[Trevak Dal]

Significantly less crying than the past few days

 

They're giving us rules that aren't bull:cuss.  Maybe.  It could be some jerk is 'leaking the codex' (lying his ass off) and all we get is derpy rules.

 

Not too big about the fear-I mostly face fearless (goddamn avatar) or KNF armies.  Now if the Warlord trait was like, "Effects units with ATSKNF/Fearless....yes, yessssssssss.

 

I'm betting there's a catch.  A dumb catch.

[daboarder]

VOTLW apparently, GW is so inept at these things they could actually think thats a major drawback

[RolandTHTG]

Held it in my hands, it all checks out. As far as I can tell the only catch is the no VOTLW on most units.
Everything else looks pretty good.

 

I actually like VotLW on a couple units, so it is a minor penalty to me, but then I can always ally regular CSM in.

[Scribe]

Neat stuff then. I have to echo daboarder though.

Only GW thinks Fear is meaningful, and only GW thinks no VotLW is a detriment.

That said: I FULLY appreciate the fact they did throw that 'little to no VotLW' in there, as it shows that they at least pay some attention to the intent of the rule.

LEGIONS GW, LET US MAKE THEM PROPERLY.

[Sception]

Held it in my hands, it all checks out. As far as I can tell the only catch is the no VOTLW on most units.

Everything else looks pretty good.

 

I actually like VotLW on a couple units, so it is a minor penalty to me, but then I can always ally regular CSM in.

 

Again, is that 'you can't buy vets if given the choice' or 'you can't have models with vets'?  And was there any note about parent book special characters being specifically allowed or forbidden?

 

I've got conversions for belakor and counts-as-huron in the works, and depending on the answers to those two questions the slaughter either has access to both, or just Be'Lakor, or neither.

[Urauloth]

Welp. If the rumours are legit, divination relic sorc is going to be Ally of the Year at the very least.

 

Divination, buffed apostle, more relics, possessed that might not be completely worthless - I may just be swayed back from the brink of running my word bearers out of the loyalist codex after all. I'll certainly be checking this supplement out as soon as I get the chance.

[RolandTHTG]

Only Cult units are allowed to buy Vets.

Can't answer the character's question (Don't remember wording saying you can't don't remember wording saying you can. I think there was something about 'The Chaos Army list with these changes' but can't remember specifically.  For what it is worth, they in-fluff had significant alliances with both Abaddon and Fabius Bile, so that ability is strongly implied)

For the Chosen champ, it is a upgrade on him, but Preferred enemy is one of those that confers to the squad, so it is basically buying "Icon of PE" on the champ.