codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Kol Saresk]

Why can't you build a Raptor cult using Word Bearer rules? After all, Raptor cults belong to more than just one Legion, right? So why do I need NL rules to play a fluffy Raptor army?

 

That was my problem with 3.5. It pigeonholed the NL to "Raptor Legion". Yes, you could do alternatives. But here, now, what, eight years later? There are people posting "An easy fix for the Night Lords would be to make Raptors troops?"

 

The only people who realize Night Lords=/=Raptors are Night Lords fans, not fanboys but fans who have taken the time to actually read up on the Legion's background. If I were to go through the Chaos Ascendant and Army lists, how many Night Lord armies would I find where no one has said "Well Raptors aren't too good in this edition so it might not be fluffy", or something else along that line? And the only reason why is because "Night Lords had no restriction on Raptors" and the cheesier list builders took full advantage of that and the extra FA slot. Kind of like right now with the main Codex. Heldrake is synonymous with Chaos Space Marines. And for pretty much the exact same reason.

 

How many people suggest count-as Blood Angels for Night Lords because you can take Assault Marines as Troops? Why not count as White Scars or Raven Guard, since those two have(or at least had) Outflank and Hit-and-Run?

 

Am I really "that far off point" for not liking the idea of a Legion being perceived through an archetype list when that was what happened?

[Scribe]

Would giving a Night Lord rule for Night Vision pidgeonhole them?

Would giving a better Apostle (or just an upgrade option for a Lord/Sorc) pidgeonhole them?

 

I could go on forever. A small nod, in rules, does not need to force anything, on anyone. No more than Marks already do for a lot of people.

 

 

If it couldn't be done then how did we get this Supplement that, from what I am hearing, actually isn't too bad and is apparently good enough that it is already being considered to represent Word Bearers?

 

Oh and this? I will call it either a fluke, or attribute it to the constant, unrelenting, unending and boundless bitching we do.

 

Frankly, I dont put much stock in it being a response to our actions and discussions.

[Wayniac]

What should happen is just go back to percentages for squads like 2nd.  Raptors, CSM, Chosen, etc. should all be under one umbrella so you can play the force YOU want, and then add in Warband Tactics (or better yet, the old Veteran thing where you could buy different things).  Want an entire Raptor army, but they're Khorne worshippers?  You can do it.  Want the IW gunline?  You can do it.  Want lots of cultists and daemons and the like to bear the word?  You can do that too.

[Dragonlover]

Oddly, I'm actually doing my Night Lords using the Blood Angel codex. I figured they're all about terror tactics, and a Land Raider full of nutters dropping from the sky is pretty terrifying.

 

Interestingly though, I'm doing the other eight Legions from the Chaos codex, and all eight lists are different! Whether they'll work is another story, and some of them have Forge World gubbins, but yeah. I managed to do what everyone says can't be done for every legion except Night Lords, and even then I'm looking at this 'Crimson Slaughter all have Fear' rumour and the wheels are turning...

 

Dragonlover

[Scribe]

The only issue there Wayniac, is GW claimed it made list building too hard, was too confusing for little timmy.

 

And we know where that lead, the 'great work' of the 4th edition book.

[Dragonlover]

Not gonna lie, but having seen some of the total screwups of list building that my Sunday lot make with the current crop of Codexes, I'm really glad that we no longer have to worry about percentages.

 

Dragonlover

[Wayniac]

The only issue there Wayniac, is GW claimed it made list building too hard, was too confusing for little timmy.

 

And we know where that lead, the 'great work' of the 4th edition book.

 

Ah yes of course, but funnily enough Fantasy still has something similar ;)

[Rain]

Why do you care so much how other people want to percieve a fictional faction or play their army Kol? Nobody forced you to use Legion rules in 3.5. And nobody would force you now. So even if people do think of NL as the Raptor Legion and want to play a Raptor focused NL army, why not let them? You can still play play your army your way, and other people can play it their way.

 

Just like with fielding an army of Gal Vorbak now, first off there were way more than 50, the ADB story in Mark of Calth has Lorgar order Argel Tal to make something like 2000, second, even if there were only 50, or only 50 survived, or whatever, we have special characters in this game. So if Lysander and Eldrad and Khârn keep showing up all the time and nobody bats an eye, then how would letting the "super rare" Gal Vorbak warband show up be such a fluff heresy?

 

Point is, some people like the archetype, and feel it's only fair as loyalists now get their archetypes if that's how they want to play, but you never were and never will be forced to "pidgeonhole" yourself, you can always use the base list.

[Scribe]

Or indeed, any list as I (and others) do with Night Lords and Blood Angels.

[Trevak Dal]

 

You are listening to the wrong people Kol. Tons of just just want consistency and recognition, as we went over at the start of the week or whenever it was.

And where's the recognition? It has a Renegades on the cover, not a Legion. And unless the Word Bearers were one of the "Traitor allies" that I saw mentioned, the XVII won't even be mentioned. This is actually less than what I asked for when i said "Supplements that could represent both".

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm excited for this. I'm just surprised that all of this talk about recognition and how Legion rules need to be Legion rules and Renegade rules be Renegade rules how easily satisfied that the very people who told me no are by a Renegades supplement.

 

It's probably largely due to the rules and especially the relics didn't turn out as :cussty as we all expected.  Look at the Black Legion supplement, and the general fumbling GeeDub does with Chaos.  It almost has to be an accident it's as decent as it is.

[Kol Saresk]

And all 2,000 of those "new Gal Vorbak" went to Calth. Where Lorgar wanted them to die. So..... Yeah.

 

Word Bearers Possessed does not necessarily mean Gal Vorbak. It refers to a specific group with a certain niche. A similar relationship would be the Bleeding Eyes when compared to the Raptors. All Bleeding Eyes are Raptors but not all Raptors are Bleeding eyes.

 

And again, where have I said "No archetypes"? I believe I just quoted myself saying something about using archetypes.

 

IIRC, what I said was when people force the view that the archetype is the faction.

[Scribe]

And we are saying, nobody can force anything.

 

Ask 1000 people if Night Lords should have, by fluff, Night Vision. Is the majority going to be yes? Thats your Rule, but nobody is going to say you cant have a possessed warband using the Crimson Slaughter, in Night Lord colours. 

 

Gal Vorbak are a subset of possessed, buffed obviously but we are not talking about writing a doctorate here, and we are attempting to temper expectation to make for a realistic (if GW listened) request.

 

"Hey man I just read this book, its got these guys who are possessed, called the Gal Vorbak, wish I could make an army of them"

"Hey friend, you can, or close enough! You can take this army, make your leader share the same rules, and possessed count as troops!"

"Wicked!"

"Death to the False Emperor!"

[Valaskjalf]

No wonder GW didnt release any Word Bearers or any other "Legion/Warband" rules - look at the damn fuss everyone is already kicking up about a totally unknown warband, God forbid GW should step on anyone's toes. Seriously Im the last person to defend them, but come on guys. 

[Kol Saresk]

@Scribe: An yet I'm wrong for saying I don't want to be in a situation where nothing can be forced, right?

[Rain]

Wow, just wow. You realize that by not having legion rules, you are forcing people that want to play an archetype into playing the base list. But having legion rules does not preclude the base list. It never did, and it never will. So what is your argument? That there shouldn't be legion rules because you think they are unfluffy? Well I think Heldrakes are unfluffy, but that doesn't mean that I would advocate the removal of Heldrakes from other people's armies. So yes, you are wrong, for wanting to prevent people from playing divergent lists that suit their view of the fluff.

 

Edit: Just out of curiosity, did you even play in 3.5 Kol? Or did you just buy the codex after the Gavdex was already in force for fluff reasons?

[Scribe]

@Scribe: An yet I'm wrong for saying I don't want to be in a situation where nothing can be forced, right?

 

You dont want to be in a situation, where nothing can be forced? I don't understand what your saying.

 

You are for, or against, people playing as the book 'they should play'? Sorry man, I lost the thread here.

[Xin Ceithan]

This Might be interesting. I might use this to come up with a nice, playable 40 k chaos war band yet...

 

As for the "Legion supplements" I can begin to see the reasoning here. The Legions Books are the FW books....the Chaos Legion archetypes we are holding in our heads are the Legions at/ after the Siege of Terra. And I fully expect those books to deliver given the stuff that has already been released. So there is no need for a Legion focus in 40 K, it would be redundant both rules- and sales wise.

So I'll slowly build my Legion force for 30 k and might have fun with my 40 k renegades in the mean time. Finally some use for those possessed parts, too

[Kol Saresk]

Wow, just wow. You realize that by not having legion rules, you are forcing people that want to play an archetype into playing the base list. But having legion rules does not preclude the base list. It never did, and it never will. So what is your argument? That there shouldn't be legion rules because you think they are unfluffy? Well I think Heldrakes are unfluffy, but that doesn't mean that I would advocate the removal of Heldrakes from other people's armies. So yes, you are wrong, for wanting to prevent people from playing divergent lists that suit their view of the fluff.

 

Edit: Just out of curiosity, did you even play in 3.5 Kol? Or did you just buy the codex after the Gavdex was already in force for fluff reasons?

Question, where have I said "No Archetype lists"?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

@Scribe: An yet I'm wrong for saying I don't want to be in a situation where nothing can be forced, right?

 

You dont want to be in a situation, where nothing can be forced? I don't understand what your saying.

 

You are for, or against, people playing as the book 'they should play'? Sorry man, I lost the thread here.

 

 

Well let's see, if we go by this post:

@Scribe: My "view"(or whatever you want to call it) is that there are Night Lords, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Sons of Horus out there. Just not as Legions. Sometimes its a solitary Legionnaire in a warband of renegades(the EC in the Tyrants Champion). Sometimes its reversed(Variel). Sometimes its a "pure" Warband(Marduk's Host). Sometimes its mixed(Black Legion).

 

The kicker is, the Legions' "specialities" are no longer the sole purview of the respective Legions. Its becoming diluted because time goes on, the new kids are taking after the old geezers and adopting their trade. Basically, the specialties aren't so special anymore. World Eaters aren't the only Berzerkers on the block. And since the psycho-surgeons will do implantations for anyone, even the Nails aren't a specialty.

 

So as a result, there is the question "What separates the Traitors from the Renegades who act just like them?" It can't be the list for obvious reasons. Is it traits? Okay, what traits?

 

That's why, to me, the nine 3.5 lists are archetype lists, the basis of a list. But are the basis for a warband. The warband chooses the list, not vice versa. So, let's make the lists.

 

But we still have the problem on traits. How do we show those? Do we just put certain traits with the lists? Or do we put them in the base codex and share with the supplements?

 

Personally, I'd take Phoros idea and make that baseline. Maybe reserve a few to be supplement specific.

 

Of course, this all predicated on the obvious need for a new Codex.

Then I am saying that "archetype lists are good" just "I don't see the need to call them Legion lists".

 

But somehow "I don't see the need to call them Legion lists" is coming across as "Archetype lists are bad" and that is where the confusion is coming in.

[Scribe]

This Might be interesting. I might use this to come up with a nice, playable 40 k chaos war band yet...

 

As for the "Legion supplements" I can begin to see the reasoning here. The Legions Books are the FW books....the Chaos Legion archetypes we are holding in our heads are the Legions at/ after the Siege of Terra. And I fully expect those books to deliver given the stuff that has already been released. So there is no need for a Legion focus in 40 K, it would be redundant both rules- and sales wise.

So I'll slowly build my Legion force for 30 k and might have fun with my 40 k renegades in the mean time. Finally some use for those possessed parts, too

 

Uhh redundant like the Space Marine codex which has the same traits? That kind of redundant?

 

@Kol - Cool! I thought we where close to the same page. I just want my Legion label, and you dont care about that part.

 

Let peace reign in the Chaos Wastes!

[Rain]

The FW books only represent Heresy era Legions and can only be played against each other. They are kind of a game unto themselves. What we want is representation for 40k era Legion Warbands. They are indeed a very different animal from organized 30k Legions, but are still beholden to certain predelictions and methods of war that they were originally trained in and have been practicing for hundred or thousands of years (depending on warp influence). Night Lords are still good at rapid terror strikes, Iron Warriors are still good at sieges, and Word Bearers are still fanatical and practice demonic arts and possession. They just aren't as centrally organized.

 

Edit: @Kol The problem is that Codex Supplement: Various Tactics Used by Disparate Warbands of Unconfirmed Origin doesn't flow as well as Codex Supplement: Renegades or Codex Supplement: Chaos Legions, but fine, if you are okay with what I consider Legion rules just under the generic name of "Terror Tactics" or "Siege Tactics" or whatever, then we probably basically agree, as some fake Italian teenager once said, "what's in a name?"

[Kol Saresk]

@Kol - Cool! I thought we where close to the same page. I just want my Legion label, and you dont care about that part.

Pretty much. But somehow that's been interpreted as "No, I do not believe in archetype lists." So....... yeah.

[Trevak Dal]

And let me go on record-once again saying:  I will drop flags and proxy whatever codex or supplement lets me have assault rhinos.  I don't care if it's the Hello Kitty Warband of the Primarch MissingNo or the Space Walruses, or the Purple Dung Beetles.

 

I like the idea of having the option of playing different archetypes like how Vespr was saying 3.5 was, that was my goal behind getting Space Marines.  The whole reason I wanted to do a DIY warband at first was so that I could swap between books to get different playstyles-without being pigeon holed into being "Chaos Space Marines", of course in the Marines VS Marines environment-someone's the heretic/traitor, so codex selection should come down to what tools you want to bring to war.

 

I can recreate World Eater Legion tactics almost 1:1 with the default CSM book.  Hell, I can recreate an actual Legion list almost.

 

Its not what I want.  To use Call of Duty vernacular, I want the Mark of Khorne to be the "Stopping Power" to the Mark of Nurgle's "Juggernaut", with a generous dash of the "Lightweight/Marathon/Commando".  Let us have assault rhinos.  I'd trade the Daemon Engines I don't use for Assault Rhinos.  I want to be up in their grille so fast blood angels fabulous hair styles will thrown in disarray as my guys come up to jack their :cuss.

 

I want alpha legion rules to give me Marbo like C4-sammaches to drop on enemy units, Infiltration across the board (terminators, etc) and A-Team like shenanigans to play on the enemy-like moving an objective, preferred enemy (Enemy army) and maybe something like a the sniper cityfight stratagem in normal 40k games (the one where all unengaged are hit by sniper fire).

 

For that matter-why can't we make use of strategems/dirty tricks and stuff in normal 40k games?  That stuff is pretty awesome.  Obviously you couldn't have the big stuff, but if you paid X amount of points for it to randomly happen (like seeker missile strikes or drone swarms for tau or something...)

[Trevak Dal]

If I had to wear a woman's bra on my head to be able to have assault rhinos (and Arty Armor, and Dedicated Transport Drop pods), I'd cinch it up every time and bring glorious slaughter to those who oppose my Keen fashion sense.

[Minsc]

Can we drop the Legion/Nightlords/pidgeonhole-debate please? It's way offtopic.