codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Hellios]

The legions live, just as the primarchs (mostly) live. The legions we talk about in 40K just arn't the same as the legions we refer to in 30K... and although they are mostly split, what little we know seems to suggest that they will unite as a legion if someone with enough authority/power tries to pull them together... Like when the primarchs feel like doing something, which isn't very often.

[daboarder]

And even the fragments are large enough to be reckoned with

[Kol Saresk]

Okay ignoring the whining stuff it has come to my attention I am extremely weak minded and clicked on every 'spoiler' tag in the thread.

 

Now that I know these spoilers (and have essentially ruined any element of surprise for myself) can anyone tell me the source of all this Crimson Slaughter background?

 

 

So I'm extremely weak willed, but you obviously clicked on this didn't you? Ha! This makes you even worse than me because this isn't even a spoiler!!

 

wayniac and I were referencing the novella Dark Vengeance an the ebook Crimson Dawn, both by C Z Dunn.

[Kol Saresk]

 

And even the fragments are large enough to be reckoned with

Where has anyone said otherwise? All that has ever said is they are fragmented.

[totgeboren]

I don't think this new supplement will make a 'good' WB representation. First of all, the WB are definitely VotLW, and it makes much more sense for them to be forced to take it on all units than it does for the BL. Also, why would all models in a WB warband cause Fear when members of a NL warband does not?

Why would a warlord trait giving an extra buff against DA make sense for the WB? Against UM I would agree, but not against the DA.

 

Also, I must say I don't really see how nerfed-but-Troops Possessed would even be playable with the new table? The only thing that keeps Possessed just above the surface when in cc is that all the results on their table do help (except AP3 against stuff with no save, however rare that is. Remember, even against 5+ saves AP3 increases the Possessed killyness by 50%).

 

The only buff they can get in cc is the 3++ and Rend, otherwise they are like 'normal' Possessed but without their pretty good cc-enhancing abilities. Shrouded on a model with a 3+/5++ isn't all that good, beast definitely is nice but they still have fleet so they are not really slow in the first place. 3++ and Rend is good, but just having a 1/3 chance of getting your Possessed any buff at all while in cc is simply not good enough.

 

However, for the WB aspect, the new DA relic Maul is a perfect match, and being able to make your HQs Possessed feels fairly fitting. So basically nothing specifically fits the WB, except one or two of the Relics and people are proclaiming this as a WB supplement?

 

I want to use this, but my WB definitely are Veterans of the Long War, so either I get a fluffy relic, some other really good Relics and nerfed Possessed plus totally unfluffy restrictions and Fear.

 

I dunno, in some ways it feels like that you can produce with this book is less true to the general WB background than what you get from the basic book, however meagre that may be.

 

I will be trying it out though, since I love huge hordes of cultists herded on by my red armoured giants but they need to be Fearless to work on the tabletop, and the basic DA can only buff one squad. With the new relic he can easily make two big blobs fearless whilst leading a big squad of CSM. And I will try out the new Possessed, but they just feel sooooo much worse than the current ones....

[the jeske]

vets or no vets ties more in to how crapy csm are ,and not to the good/bad for WB. On the other hand elite possessed are bad . Troop possesed aren't the unit to rule them all , but at least we aren't killing ourselfs by taking 2 units of them . I can't agree that the "new" possessed are worse . Do we run cult units as cult? No we don't . Even if the "new" possessed had just +5inv and no table to roll one , they would be better[what doesn't mean good. cultists are good troops] then the ones from the main book.

Possessed are also an important part of WB fluff [and BL] , so why not . Both armies are also red , so from the opposing table side no one will notice if the army is WB or CS.

[daboarder]

what jeske is saying is that the move to troops outweighs the new table

[Kol Saresk]

I don't think this new supplement will make a 'good' WB representation. First of all, the WB are definitely VotLW, and it makes much more sense for them to be forced to take it on all units than it does for the BL. Also, why would all models in a WB warband cause Fear when members of a NL warband does not?

Why would a warlord trait giving an extra buff against DA make sense for the WB? Against UM I would agree, but not against the DA.

 

Also, I must say I don't really see how nerfed-but-Troops Possessed would even be playable with the new table? The only thing that keeps Possessed just above the surface when in cc is that all the results on their table do help (except AP3 against stuff with no save, however rare that is. Remember, even against 5+ saves AP3 increases the Possessed killyness by 50%).

 

The only buff they can get in cc is the 3++ and Rend, otherwise they are like 'normal' Possessed but without their pretty good cc-enhancing abilities. Shrouded on a model with a 3+/5++ isn't all that good, beast definitely is nice but they still have fleet so they are not really slow in the first place. 3++ and Rend is good, but just having a 1/3 chance of getting your Possessed any buff at all while in cc is simply not good enough.

 

However, for the WB aspect, the new DA relic Maul is a perfect match, and being able to make your HQs Possessed feels fairly fitting. So basically nothing specifically fits the WB, except one or two of the Relics and people are proclaiming this as a WB supplement?

 

I want to use this, but my WB definitely are Veterans of the Long War, so either I get a fluffy relic, some other really good Relics and nerfed Possessed plus totally unfluffy restrictions and Fear.

 

I dunno, in some ways it feels like that you can produce with this book is less true to the general WB background than what you get from the basic book, however meagre that may be.

 

I will be trying it out though, since I love huge hordes of cultists herded on by my red armoured giants but they need to be Fearless to work on the tabletop, and the basic DA can only buff one squad. With the new relic he can easily make two big blobs fearless whilst leading a big squad of CSM. And I will try out the new Possessed, but they just feel sooooo much worse than the current ones....

I have to agree on the representation. I've only done a quick read through of the background in here but other than "red", "Dark Crozius" and "rampant numbers of Possessed", they've given these guys more of a "We take after the VIII Legion" feel. For example, the army wide Fear rule is supposed to be because the Crimson Slaughter unleash the specters that haunt them upon whatever world they are about to attack. They specialize as raiders and in ambush tactics. The Chosen squad that gets Preferred Enemy? It gets that because the Champion in the background is Draznicht and he is supposed to be prescient. That is also why if he gets "killed", the PE goes away.

 

Honestly, I've just done a brief overview but if anyone has ever wanted to make Warband of the Exalted(Talos' warband before he took control) it could very easily be done. Take the Chosen+ upgrade to represent First Claw, Possessed warleader to make the Exalted, Raptors for the Bleeding Eyes, basically as long as you don't mind missing the VotLW upgrade, which could easily be justified since they've only been fighting the Long War for 400 years, it could be done easy smeezy.

[RapatoR]

Well, I one thing that everyone seems to be forgetting is option to make possessed HQ. I am hyped for this from the fluffy pow, but I think that possessed HQ with one or more fancy artifacts running along squad is pretty good option.

[Noctus Cornix]

I don't think this new supplement will make a 'good' WB representation. First of all, the WB are definitely VotLW, and it makes much more sense for them to be forced to take it on all units than it does for the BL. Also, why would all models in a WB warband cause Fear when members of a NL warband does not?

Why would a warlord trait giving an extra buff against DA make sense for the WB? Against UM I would agree, but not against the DA.

 

Also, I must say I don't really see how nerfed-but-Troops Possessed would even be playable with the new table? The only thing that keeps Possessed just above the surface when in cc is that all the results on their table do help (except AP3 against stuff with no save, however rare that is. Remember, even against 5+ saves AP3 increases the Possessed killyness by 50%).

 

The only buff they can get in cc is the 3++ and Rend, otherwise they are like 'normal' Possessed but without their pretty good cc-enhancing abilities. Shrouded on a model with a 3+/5++ isn't all that good, beast definitely is nice but they still have fleet so they are not really slow in the first place. 3++ and Rend is good, but just having a 1/3 chance of getting your Possessed any buff at all while in cc is simply not good enough.

 

However, for the WB aspect, the new DA relic Maul is a perfect match, and being able to make your HQs Possessed feels fairly fitting. So basically nothing specifically fits the WB, except one or two of the Relics and people are proclaiming this as a WB supplement?

 

I want to use this, but my WB definitely are Veterans of the Long War, so either I get a fluffy relic, some other really good Relics and nerfed Possessed plus totally unfluffy restrictions and Fear.

 

I dunno, in some ways it feels like that you can produce with this book is less true to the general WB background than what you get from the basic book, however meagre that may be.

 

I will be trying it out though, since I love huge hordes of cultists herded on by my red armoured giants but they need to be Fearless to work on the tabletop, and the basic DA can only buff one squad. With the new relic he can easily make two big blobs fearless whilst leading a big squad of CSM. And I will try out the new Possessed, but they just feel sooooo much worse than the current ones....

While I do also feel it is rather dumb to say that this should be a Word Bearer codex, I must completely disagree with you in saying that it cannot be aptly used for the XVII Legion.

 

Making Veterans of the Long War a requirement seems like a rather silly thing to represent any Legion save perhaps Black Legion. No Legion or warband can survive without new recruits, and the Word Bearers being one of the most organized and intact of the Legions would be of little exception to this. They must have thousands upon thousands of warriors taken from their sovereign worlds int he warp. They had enough marines to rival the Ultramarines at the time of the heresy but they also culled their own ranks on multiple occasions and made use of wanton tactics that saw to the massacre of their brothers. The Word Bearers are likely to be one of the Legions, from my perspective, to have the most wide-spread use of new recruits, so having VoTLW as optional to only select units seems fair. Fear is something that can be debated, but to me who views Word Bearers as those who should be among the most absolutely corrupt and mutated of the Space Marines, it seems only fair. These are the avatars of the Dark Gods, the heirs to Hell itself.

 

As for the Possessed, I have to say I don't think you're seeing it the right way. Possessed are already fairly decent in close combat with 2 attacks each and a free 5++. What most people find as an issue with them is that they lack mobility and, as a close combat unit, they have little to no options of getting into the enemy's face without say spending points on an expensive Land Raider. What the new chart does is it offers that mobility, an option to actually footslog across the field with an actual sense of security. No matter what you roll, there is something that will help you. If you roll shrouded, just make sure your unit ends his movement behind cover. With Beast, you have practically the option to move straight towards the enemy and drag yourselves right into their face. And with the 3++, you can just wade through fire. This chart offers that mobility and in all honesty, it does little damage to their ability to be monsters in close combat. Whether you choose Khorne for 4 attacks on the charge at str 6 each (if you buy the icon, which you should), Nurgle or Tzeentch for added defense, Slaanesh for a healthy mix of the two, these guys can do some serious damage while still having the opportunity to get where they need to go.

 

And the Relics are just pretty sweet in general.

[the jeske]

Wasn't the number of WB nerfed by a lot in the fluff , the second largest force right now are the corsairs , WB could be as small as 1-2 normal marine chapters ?

[Brother Ambroz]

Okay ignoring the whining stuff it has come to my attention I am extremely weak minded and clicked on every 'spoiler' tag in the thread.

 

Now that I know these spoilers (and have essentially ruined any element of surprise for myself) can anyone tell me the source of all this Crimson Slaughter background?

 

 

So I'm extremely weak willed, but you obviously clicked on this didn't you? Ha! This makes you even worse than me because this isn't even a spoiler!!

 

I did this too for each one and let me say that I hate  you for that extra "spoiler" in your quote. :P

[Noctus Cornix]

Wasn't the number of WB nerfed by a lot in the fluff , the second largest force right now are the corsairs , WB could be as small as 1-2 normal marine chapters ?

 

Recent fluff from the novels have stated that the Word Bearers were around 100,000 strong at about the time of their shame from the Emperor and, in the coming years towards the eventual betrayal, the Legion did a mass produced Legion induction program to the point where they nearly rivaled the Ultramarines. (so around 300,000)

 

However, they have culled their own ranks on many occasions and made use of rather wanton tactics that saw to the massacres of many Word Bearers.

 

Suffice to say their numbers would not be nearly as large, however they are still likely 100,000 at the very least spread across the galaxy from survivors and new recruits.

[the jeske]

But that is not possible Huron is told to have 100k marines under him and have the second largest marine chaos force around ,with only abadon having more . Which makes sense realy , if he had less any sensible WB would be trying to give wipe out or break up such a large force . But only if it was smaller then the WBs. If it is largest they can't realy do anything about it .

[Kol Saresk]

Wasn't the number of WB nerfed by a lot in the fluff , the second largest force right now are the corsairs , WB could be as small as 1-2 normal marine chapters ?

Umm, I'd have to see a quote for that since Anthoney Reynold's book series shows the strength of the average Host being at 1,000 and there being more than one. A lot more than one. We see like six or seven just in the last book. Granted, only one Host survives because the rest killed each other but that's a different topic.

 

One thing to point out is that the little quote daboarder got all excited about points out:

None could match the size and power of the Chaos Space Marine Legions, and of those the most powerful and well organised was the Black Legion.”

 

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Crimson Slaughter - A Codex: Chaos Space Marines Supplement (eBook Edition).” Games Workshop Ltd, 2014-03-04. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

 

So the XVII is apparently not as organized as the Black Legion. Which if I heard was correct, was pretty much every man for himself until Abaddon called, or no?

 

 

Oh, and I'm sure everyone will get a kick out of GW putting this in print:

“The Imperium has attempted to suppress rumours that an entire Chapter of their Space Marines has been corrupted – for the Chaos Space Marines are fearsome foes. They possess all of a Space Marine’s abilities and skills, and his matchless gear of war.”

 

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Crimson Slaughter - A Codex: Chaos Space Marines Supplement (eBook Edition).” Games Workshop Ltd, 2014-03-04. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

 

 

You heard it here, straight from GW. Chaos is supposed to have every toy the Loyalists have. ;)

 

@Jeske: Hruon's forces number more than just Marines. He has cultists, traitor guardsmen, pirates and xenos that rally to his banner. It is the same for the Black Legion.

[incinerator950]

But that is not possible Huron is told to have 100k marines under him and have the second largest marine chaos force around ,with only abadon having more . Which makes sense realy , if he had less any sensible WB would be trying to give wipe out or break up such a large force . But only if it was smaller then the WBs. If it is largest they can't realy do anything about it .

 

Not forgetting that the WB are supposed to have two major holdings within both the Eye and the Maelstrom.  On the flip side, these are estimated numbers that are fluctuating on the whims of good or bad writers and marketing designs, not power and player statistics gathered over the last two editions. 

 

As for the Black Legion, Abbadon is the supreme leader.  Its commanders and CoC is however, split into warbands like everyone else.  The majority of the BL are not Sons of Horus though.  Infact (acquired from recently skimming Lexicanum) there are splinter SoH warbands that have either been absorbed or are minor rivals to Abbadon.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

But that is not possible Huron is told to have 100k marines under him and have the second largest marine chaos force around ,with only abadon having more . Which makes sense realy , if he had less any sensible WB would be trying to give wipe out or break up such a large force . But only if it was smaller then the WBs. If it is largest they can't realy do anything about it .

Not forgetting that the WB are supposed to have two major holdings within both the Eye and the Maelstrom. On the flip side, these are estimated numbers that are fluctuating on the whims of good or bad writers and marketing designs, not power and player statistics gathered over the last two editions.

 

As for the Black Legion, Abbadon is the supreme leader. Its commanders and CoC is however, split into warbands like everyone else. The majority of the BL are not Sons of Horus though. Infact (acquired from recently skimming Lexicanum) there are splinter SoH warbands that have either been absorbed or are minor rivals to Abbadon.

Yeah, I was aware of the XVI Legion=/=Black Legion. Still, its funny that apparently a Legion that loose in the command chain is "the most organized". Says something about just having a Council in charge doesn't it? ;)

[incinerator950]

But that is not possible Huron is told to have 100k marines under him and have the second largest marine chaos force around ,with only abadon having more . Which makes sense realy , if he had less any sensible WB would be trying to give wipe out or break up such a large force . But only if it was smaller then the WBs. If it is largest they can't realy do anything about it .

Not forgetting that the WB are supposed to have two major holdings within both the Eye and the Maelstrom. On the flip side, these are estimated numbers that are fluctuating on the whims of good or bad writers and marketing designs, not power and player statistics gathered over the last two editions.

As for the Black Legion, Abbadon is the supreme leader. Its commanders and CoC is however, split into warbands like everyone else. The majority of the BL are not Sons of Horus though. Infact (acquired from recently skimming Lexicanum) there are splinter SoH warbands that have either been absorbed or are minor rivals to Abbadon.

Yeah, I was aware of the XVI Legion=/=Black Legion. Still, its funny that apparently a Legion that loose in the command chain is "the most organized". Says something about just having a Council in charge doesn't it?

Well no. Abbadon was a member of the Mournival. He was next in line of command succession. It's just that he's not Horus, not everyone sees eye to eye with him. Any army now is made up of Battalions, regiments, companies, and so forth. You figure the Black Legion is more haphazard, but still on the same principals of any command and control, no matter what it's called.

It's just that Abbadon has enough glue to gather both renegades and Legion Veterans, as well as cultists, renegade militia, aliens, and demon allies.

[Vesper]

Don't know it it's actually that loose. It clearly isn't anything like the 30k Legions, but I guess Abaddon has enforcers, those being known or kept secret, just to keep his Legion in check.

We know he has a tendancy to let his Black Companies do pretty much what they want when not launching a Black Crusade, but we also know he keeps a large amount of those around.

[Kol Saresk]

Don't know it it's actually that loose. It clearly isn't anything like the 30k Legions, but I guess Abaddon has enforcers, those being known or kept secret, just to keep his Legion in check.

We know he has a tendancy to let his Black Companies do pretty much what they want when not launching a Black Crusade, but we also know he keeps a large amount of those around.

That is what I meant by loose. The warbands act just like warbands, achieving their own goals and agendas, until ordered otherwise. And yet that is considered more organized than the Word Bearers and the Dark Council of Sicarus. At least, according to officially GW printed material.

[incinerator950]

 

Don't know it it's actually that loose. It clearly isn't anything like the 30k Legions, but I guess Abaddon has enforcers, those being known or kept secret, just to keep his Legion in check.

We know he has a tendancy to let his Black Companies do pretty much what they want when not launching a Black Crusade, but we also know he keeps a large amount of those around.

That is what I meant by loose. The warbands act just like warbands, achieving their own goals and agendas, until ordered otherwise. And yet that is considered more organized than the Word Bearers and the Dark Council of Sicarus. At least, according to officially GW printed material.

 

Not too sure on the wording.  On one hand, the Word Bearers have a more intricate system of Command, recruiting, and allowing their warbands to completely splinter (Because everyone is made of Warbands now).  On the other, the BL are more active, take on more recruits, and are more ad hoc so long as everyone knows Abbadon is in charge.

[Tenebris]

It begs to ask why Huron should have more than 10k astartes. Granted he is a powerful lord, commanding much of the Maelstrom warbands but I still think that the original traitor legions number much much more than the Red Corsairs. I was under the impression in the Pandorax novel that while Huron is powerful he is still a small fish compared to the traitors, hell even Abbadon states that he has countless fleet commanders much more capable than Huron and that his is only one name in the thousands. It can be just posturing but Abbadon is not one to be dismissed so easily, and a runt that has been around for 300 or so years is a little thing, he and his Red Corsairs, compared to the true might of the traitor legions. 

 

On a side note I think that Huron has much more human elements than the traitor legions, ranging from pirates to cultists... 

[Vesper]

 

Don't know it it's actually that loose. It clearly isn't anything like the 30k Legions, but I guess Abaddon has enforcers, those being known or kept secret, just to keep his Legion in check.

We know he has a tendancy to let his Black Companies do pretty much what they want when not launching a Black Crusade, but we also know he keeps a large amount of those around.

That is what I meant by loose. The warbands act just like warbands, achieving their own goals and agendas, until ordered otherwise. And yet that is considered more organized than the Word Bearers and the Dark Council of Sicarus. At least, according to officially GW printed material.

I am under the impression it's the case for pretty much everyone. Even during the Great Crusade.

The Legions were broken up into countless fleets, that went into their corner of the Galaxy, doing their thing.

[Kol Saresk]

But if that's organized, then what constitutes as less organized than that but not "disorganized"? Just curious is all.

 

But if that's organized, then what constitutes as less organized than that but not "disorganized"? Just curious is all.

[Vesper]

But if that's organized, then what constitutes as less organized than that but not "disorganized"? Just curious is all.

 

But if that's organized, then what constitutes as less organized than that but not "disorganized"? Just curious is all.

People killing each other and betraying each other on a daily basis ?