codex crimson slaughter.... yup, GW really hates us.

[Slave to Darkness]

was a nice thought whilst it lasted

[Kol Saresk]

As I understand it, the only organized(apparently a relative term) power in the Eye is really the Word Bearer forgeworld of Ghalmek. Pre-Huron of course. Everyone else was just a random cluttering of warbands.

 

Ooh, on the terms of numbers growth, the Crimson Slaughter have only been Renegades for seventy-ish years. And yet it is strongly alluded to that they have spent much longer in the eye of Terror, allowing them to grow at much faster(relative) rate than normal. It is highly likely the Red Corsairs have experienced something similar. Especially since they've been in the Maelstrom longer and are supposed to have the much more numerical growth.

 

Which kind of raises the question "just how larger are Renegade Chapters/Warbands?"

 

I ask because, in Daemonworld, we see 400 Violators and we see those Violators get wiped out. But at the same time, the Violators are supposed to make an appearance at Crythe and later in the 13th Black Crusade. basically, if a Renegade Chapter/Warband were able to gain the resources and they were in a "moves faster than reality" part of the warp, theoretically they could grow and split off into any number of warbands. Meaning there could be more than just one group of Violators. Or Children of Purgatos. Or Black Psalms. Or basically anyone else you can think of.

 

And a possible fan-theory. We know that times and the warp are growing more turbulent as the 41st Millennium draws to a close. While the powers may not want Abaddon to become the New Emperor, they do want him breaking open Cadia(which technically has happened;provided my theory about the shift in focus and not a retcon is correct) is it possible they "skipped forward" some(maybe most?) of the Traitor Legion warbands while "slowing down" the Renegades in order to help build up the numbers necessary to take the Imperium by storm?

 

@Mali: Erebus leads the Dark Council of Sicarus from the Eye while(last I heard) Kor Phaeron heads Ghalmek from the Maelstrom. I want to say Anthoney Reynolds' series is the source for both.

[Rain]

I'm pretty sure GW don't think that hard about it, especially when it comes to chapters/factions that are just a name and a color scheme. Hell they've even re-used the same color scheme for more than 1  random made up-on-the-spot traitor chapter before, they are just trying to come up with lots of options for people that want to use colors and designs different from the established Legion colors. Similarly the 100k Red Corsairs thing was just made up on the spot to make the Red Corsairs seem big and intimidating, and to make Huron kind of the Abaddon of the Maelstrom, especially as he is now leading his own invasion out of the Maelstrom to coincide with the 13th Black Crusade.

 

The other "in fluff" explanation though is that I remember reading somewhere (though I admit I don't remember where, I've read A LOT of Chaos fluff) that events in the warp can split off, kind of like the many worlds interpretation of quantum uncertainty and so younger versions of various Chaos marines can emerge from the warp even when their older versions have already been killed, which can explain how a warband that has been otherwise wiped out can "come back". So yeah, a wizard did it.

[Wade Garrett]

 

@Mali: Erebus leads the Dark Council of Sicarus from the Eye while(last I heard) Kor Phaeron heads Ghalmek from the Maelstrom. I want to say Anthoney Reynolds' series is the source for both.

You're correct on both counts. Although the thing that specifically places Kor on Ghalmek vs a vague "somewhere in the Maelstrom" is...blast! The Horus Heresy graphic novel about Kor and Infidius Imperator being hunted by Marius Gage's ship after Calth, I can't remember the title.

[Sception]

So while I may not have had the who's and the where's quite right, there was an established Word Bearers presence within the Maelstrom.  That could certainly account for a considerable portion of Huron's strength and capacity in corrupting and absorbing more space marine forces.

[HsojVvad]

Random thought,  if i came into a huuuuge amount of cash. and purchased a chaos army of say, one million marines, and painted them all word bearers and sent gw the picture of the finished army, would they take note and change the fluff? as right in front of them is a million word bearers. 

 

I was going to make a post, but hit delete and didn't post it. Well here is the proof. One Million Marines. That is what 100 000 000, One Hundred Million Dollars? (que in Dr Evil. :P) I don't think GW would throw this opportunity away. 

 

Why not start a Kickstarter? Yes I don't think it can be done, but maybe you will get the gist what I am talking about.

 

So if a Legion book came out, how much would you be spending? Now put your money where your mouth is? Will you just spend a few hundred dollars, since you already have everything or a lot of things already? Or will your throw it all away and start from new and spend 1000's? 

 

The way I see it, GW knows most Legion wanters, already have what they want, and will not spend much money. After all, how many posts do we have of,

 

"I already have everything I want", or 

 

"I don't buy from GW so they don't get as much money from me" or

 

"I am already out of the GW hobby, but will still talk about them to my dieing death, but still hate them and spit where the walk"

 

For GW it's not worth their time and money to make Legions. Hell it's being done with FW and people are still bitching and complaining. It's being done so much better and nicer and we are still getting complaints. Hell we even have Primarchs which a lot of people wanted, and it's STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH. 

 

So why would GW spend a lot of money, $100 000 or a million dollar just to get a few buck in return, since a lot of the complaints about GW posters, would not buy anyways?

 

So put your money where your mouth is. Start a Kickstart (or what ever it is you can) to see how much money would be made from GW producing Legions. I mean if a small space video game asking for a million or so, gets 40 million in backing, I wonder how much the CSM community would actually raise up. Instead of bitching, and moaning and complaining do something about it. Ahhh, you want something but waiting for someone else to do the work. 

 

Come on guys, put your money where your mouth is. How much would you actually buy? 

[BrainFireBob]

Even so it takes roughly 200 years to build to chapter strenght. Lets consider stolen geneseed, warp manipulation, sorcery and the rest of such variables and we come to a conclusion that Huron was able to build something like 2k astartes tops if he was very very diligent in geneseed recovery, implantation and that the whole process was blessed with suitable recruits or slave stock. 

 

You are making a huge number of unproven assumptions.

 

Given 1 set of geneseed and a series of slaves for incubation, you can create 1000 sets of implants in roughly 50 years. You can look that up on lexicanum- it's how completely fresh foundings are done.

 

Further, Space Marines are deliberately picky about their recruits, and take extensive time to indoctrinate them. Huron doesn't have that problem, where else are they going to go?

 

Even further, he doesn't have competition for resources in the maelstrom the way the Traitor legions did- essentially, there's too much demand for the supply in the Eye.

 

Add to that, he was deliberately stealing geneseed from all the fallen in the Badab War to preserve his fighting strength, and he's continued that practice with every battle with loyalist marines he's been in.

 

So you have a particularly exemplary Marine leader in ability, with pre-existing operations for elevated gene-seed harvesting, who doesn't need to be as picky as loyalists regarding recruit psychology, and who is highly invested in recruiting at a high rate in an environment where he's not competing for resources, and yeah, it works.

 

Two other points to consider, it's never been quite clear if the chest progenoid can be harvested before death (giving Huron, even if he had no resources, 200 sets of gene-seed to work with), and the Imperium has artificially restricted its number of marines- hence the huge gene-seed banks on Hydra Cordatus and Mars, not to mention what all the Chapters hold. If the Imperium was just interested in numbers of Astartes, they could spawn truly vast numbers with what they have stored after 10,000 years. They're holding their numbers as close to the minimum as possible as a power balance, it may or may not be part of Guilliman's original design. In fact, the whole story of Huron's fall makes the most sense in this regard- he was beginning to successfully clean out the maelstrom, and that wasn't the purpose of the Wardens; their purpose was to contain it. So they split off a quarter of his resources- the Charnel Guard- to stop him. No Maelstrom, they have multiple chapters they need to find another use for who might get corpuscular.

 

Yes it's shortsighted- that's the dystopian Imperium.

 

The Traitor legions don't have the facilities, and were too busy establishing their own realms against each other. Huron moved right into a base and resumed aggressive recruitment without battling rivals for power. Further, the whole beginning to cleanse the maelstrom angle shows that Huron was among the best of the Chapter Masters- possibly a peer with Calgar or Dante in ability.

 

EDIT:

 

I'm adding a couple other points.

 

1) I imagine GW views the Horus Heresy series as directly supplying the demand for Legions- that doing them in 40K would be viewed as cannibalizing their own sales

2) I have this whole theory that GW thinks they're responding to the fans, and the fans don't recognize it. Chaos now has 2 supplements- the Veteran "Long War" supplement, and the "Renegade" fresh-turned nightmare supplement. From their perspective, that is answering the fans clamoring for "I want to see troops that have fought the Long War" a la Scribe of Khorne and "I want to see a renegade warband".

 

The fact that it's not what Scribe et al actually want doesn't mean that it's not what it's for. GW did in fact listen. They just heard something different than what the fans think they're saying.

[Kol Saresk]

So while I may not have had the who's and the where's quite right, there was an established Word Bearers presence within the Maelstrom.  That could certainly account for a considerable portion of Huron's strength and capacity in corrupting and absorbing more space marine forces.

Maybe. But according to the Codex, it is rumored that his current flagship is an old Word Bearers battle-barge so if a broken, disparate band of Night Lords couldn't abide by a single strike cruiser being used, whose to say that an entire planet of Word Bearers would allow the same?

 

@BrainFireBob: Umm, Huron starts out with pretty much a single strike cruiser and some Astartes to his name and it is heavily hinted that he relies on the individuals and squads that join his ranks for his numbers. The Legions were, well Legions when they first ventured into the Eye. It was only during the course of the Legion Wars and the Shattering at Tsalgualsa that they fractured, with the warband of Black Legion soon growing to the strength that it becomes considered a true Legion in its own right but there are still warbands that have much power. For example, the Word Bearer Hosts share(more likely fight over) the resources of Sicarus and Ghalmek and there is a similar method on Medrengard. Meanwhile, if Zhufor's rise is anything to go by, the World Eaters rely on brainwashing POWs as well as any Khornate Berzerkers who join their ranks from the Renegades. In theory, one could argue the entire Cholercaust Crusade was one massive World Eater warband since it was led by a World Eater as well as others from his Legion being the "top dogs".

 

So while Huron gained the resources necessary to rebuild his Astartes numbers, he didn't start out with them.

[hornywingythingy]

Wow, I can't believe the posts this little topic generated!

 

Looked at it today, and colour me wrong, if I hadn't just spent a grand and a half on a motorcycle I'd have bought the codex for running my spawntide, I can't help but wish vetok and not Kelly had written CSM, it's a he'll of a difference from two pages of rules.....

 

So yeah, should probably change the title to GW doesn't hate us, but Kelly does! ;)

[BrainFireBob]

 

So while I may not have had the who's and the where's quite right, there was an established Word Bearers presence within the Maelstrom.  That could certainly account for a considerable portion of Huron's strength and capacity in corrupting and absorbing more space marine forces.

Maybe. But according to the Codex, it is rumored that his current flagship is an old Word Bearers battle-barge so if a broken, disparate band of Night Lords couldn't abide by a single strike cruiser being used, whose to say that an entire planet of Word Bearers would allow the same?

 

@BrainFireBob: Umm, Huron starts out with pretty much a single strike cruiser and some Astartes to his name and it is heavily hinted that he relies on the individuals and squads that join his ranks for his numbers. The Legions were, well Legions when they first ventured into the Eye. It was only during the course of the Legion Wars and the Shattering at Tsalgualsa that they fractured, with the warband of Black Legion soon growing to the strength that it becomes considered a true Legion in its own right but there are still warbands that have much power. For example, the Word Bearer Hosts share(more likely fight over) the resources of Sicarus and Ghalmek and there is a similar method on Medrengard. Meanwhile, if Zhufor's rise is anything to go by, the World Eaters rely on brainwashing POWs as well as any Khornate Berzerkers who join their ranks from the Renegades. In theory, one could argue the entire Cholercaust Crusade was one massive World Eater warband since it was led by a World Eater as well as others from his Legion being the "top dogs".

 

So while Huron gained the resources necessary to rebuild his Astartes numbers, he didn't start out with them.

 

 

During the Badab War, Huron was using apothecaries to harvest everyone's gene-seed, it was one of his "atrocities" by the Badab War books.

 

There are a number of fluff snippets about Huron's troops who claim non-dead enemies, somehow "suitable", insufficiently maimed/injured who might be harvestable for the "Corpsetakers". The implication there is that they're mindwiped and turned into Astartes to go along with his forced-growth gene-seed. The Corpsetakers being noted in other places as what Huron's replacement apothecaries are called.

 

Also in the Badab War, a number of secret Astral Claw bases were found where the stolen material was stored.

 

Also also, Huron immediately displaced a pirate stronghold with his remaining Astral Claws, which became his capitol. Huron, you'll recall, is noted to have had access to fairly accurate charts of the Maelstrom he received from the Mantis Warriors, who developed them over 10000 years and are now on penitent crusade.

 

Huron had his Leonardo da Vinci Techmarine/Apothecary (who rebuilt Huron) and 200 Astartes. Minimum, that's 201 gene-seeds, maximum 404 (whether Huron's was destroyed by that melta blast or the Red Corsairs harvested the neck gene-seed on maturization- not all Chapters do- is unknown). Since 1 set in fifty years can generate 1000, he could have up to 201000 organ sets available fifty years after the war under optimal conditions. Recall, he's not fighting with other marine groups for the slaves and resources to build this, nor for hegemonic supremacy. All he needs is healthy bodies- which he can get- and a stable base- which he seized immediately- and someone to run the program who isn't tinkering with the gene-seed- which he still has.

 

His advantage is that the Maelstrom is unstable and he's the only player in the area with reliable charts. Too hard to root him out, so he's fighting when he chooses to fight.

[Kol Saresk]

During the Badab War, Huron was using apothecaries to harvest everyone's gene-seed, it was one of his "atrocities" by the Badab War books.

 

There are a number of fluff snippets about Huron's troops who claim non-dead enemies, somehow "suitable", insufficiently maimed/injured who might be harvestable for the "Corpsetakers". The implication there is that they're mindwiped and turned into Astartes to go along with his forced-growth gene-seed. The Corpsetakers being noted in other places as what Huron's replacement apothecaries are called.

 

Also in the Badab War, a number of secret Astral Claw bases were found where the stolen material was stored.

 

Also also, Huron immediately displaced a pirate stronghold with his remaining Astral Claws, which became his capitol. Huron, you'll recall, is noted to have had access to fairly accurate charts of the Maelstrom he received from the Mantis Warriors, who developed them over 10000 years and are now on penitent crusade.

 

Huron had his Leonardo da Vinci Techmarine/Apothecary (who rebuilt Huron) and 200 Astartes. Minimum, that's 201 gene-seeds, maximum 404 (whether Huron's was destroyed by that melta blast or the Red Corsairs harvested the neck gene-seed on maturization- not all Chapters do- is unknown). Since 1 set in fifty years can generate 1000, he could have up to 201000 organ sets available fifty years after the war under optimal conditions. Recall, he's not fighting with other marine groups for the slaves and resources to build this, nor for hegemonic supremacy. All he needs is healthy bodies- which he can get- and a stable base- which he seized immediately- and someone to run the program who isn't tinkering with the gene-seed- which he still has.

 

His advantage is that the Maelstrom is unstable and he's the only player in the area with reliable charts. Too hard to root him out, so he's fighting when he chooses to fight.

I don't exactly see the disagreement you are trying to point out.................

[d@n]

The word bearers had a hundred and fifty thousand marines at the outbreak of the heresy and probably substantially more now. As they have had ten thousand years to bluster there numbers.The red corsairs have nowhere near those numbers, after 300 years of expanding there numbers.

[Twizted86]

Ok so I know this doesn't really mean anything concrete and I really don't want to start any arguments because I have watched the progression of this thread. However I thought this was at least worth a mention. If nothing else it does show that they do still acknowledge the legions. I found this on a comment on their Facebook page a few days ago when someone asked about legion supplements and here is the question and reply made by Games Workshop. So make of it what you will.

 

I love you guys, I really do, but when will we see the traitor legion supplements? That's kinda what we've been asking for.

Like · Reply · 8 · March 11 at 11:12am

 

Games Workshop: Digital Editions Hey *****,

I am sure that we'll get round to the rest of Traitor Legions in a publication in due time.

Be patient, and In time your devotion will be rewarded (and by that I of course mean, keep an eye on White Dwarf and our websites for news on new releases.)

 

- Eddie

Like · 12 · March 11 at 11:20am

[totgeboren]

noctus cornix, on 15 Mar 2014 - 11:33, said:

While I do also feel it is rather dumb to say that this should be a Word Bearer codex, I must completely disagree with you in saying that it cannot be aptly used for the XVII Legion.

 

Making Veterans of the Long War a requirement seems like a rather silly thing to represent any Legion save perhaps Black Legion.

 

You misunderstand, I would definitely say it can be used to represent the WB, but what I'm arguing against it that it is a better representation all things considered. And about VotLW, I was saying that a mandatory VotLW upgrade would make more sense for WB than BL (since the BL are known for taking in everyone within their ranks, renegades and legionaries alike). Of course a legion as big as the WB would need new recruits, so VotLW should not be mandatory (at least not for non-Elites), but if it was, it would make more sense for the WB than what it does for the BL.

 

noctus cornix, on 15 Mar 2014 - 11:33, said:

As for the Possessed, I have to say I don't think you're seeing it the right way.... What the new chart does is it offers that mobility, an option to actually footslog across the field with an actual sense of security. No matter what you roll, there is something that will help you.

 

But I have had no trouble between Rhinos/Land Raiders and Fleet to get into close combat with my Possessed without suffering heavy losses. What I have been having trouble with is that they just cost way too much for their offensive and defensive output, and since they have a 5++ save Shrouded doesn't help much. 3++ just makes my opponent target them with anti-infantry fire (which they did already since the Possessed have a 5++ inv), so 3++ doesn't really help much at range. It is pretty sweet in close combat though, but you only have a 1/3 of getting it, and the old table gave them something almost as good no matter what you rolled. When my Slaanesh Possessed assaulted a Hive Tyrant and rolled AP3 I just made mincemeat of the Hive, whilst the 'new' Possessed would just make a wound or so (unless I rolled 3++ and rending, which would give almost the same result).

 

noctus cornix, on 15 Mar 2014 - 11:33, said:

And the Relics are just pretty sweet in general.

 

On this I agree, and it the reason I will try out my WB with the new supplement. The Relics just seem better game-wise. However, with the exception of the Maul I don't think the supplement is a better representation fluff-wise of the WB than the basic codex. This just sounds like a variation of the old "BA are a better representation of the NL than the CSM dex, as long as you ignore Sang Priests, Black Rage, BA-themed psychics, Lord Chaplains, Fast Tanks, Death Company, no Fear-causing anything and ATSKNF".

 

The CS can be used to make a representation of the WB just like the basic book can. None of them however does a good job, they just do a different job, where you have to make some compromises no matter which you pick. The 30k Legion list is in the same boat. It represents them pretty good in 40k, but you still lose out on cultists and daemon engines and stuff like that, so it's not spot on either.

[Tenebris]

The above is good news indeed.

 

On the note of Huron, why he with all this oh so mighty geneseed empire is still forced to capture a lone Space Wolf cruiser and has to recruit the wretches which betrayed their brothers in return for their life. The answer is simple, we speak of around 90 years of real time, perhaps a few hundred more due to warp distortion, not much but not a lot either, which even without competition, even with a full gene bank and even with his massive ego and charisma does not justify the numbers of Red Corsairs imo. exaggerated. In short he lives of scrap, of renegade wretches and stolen goods because of his own he has little. He is a pirate lord who is forced to play pirate because he cannot afford to shoot his bolters for much long and because his ships are in dire need for repairs and spare parts. Same can be said for the many other warbands but I think it is healthy for a reasonable lore perspective to consider Huron and his Red Corsairs as a big warband, that much is granted, but nowhere near to legion strength in ships, astartes and cults. And keep in mind that he was on the brink of destruction a few more times since he ran with his tail between his legs. It is not hard to be logical about it and while I appreciate any point of view on this forums I think that a grain of salt is always healthy.

[Kol Saresk]

The word bearers had a hundred and fifty thousand marines at the outbreak of the heresy and probably substantially more now. As they have had ten thousand years to bluster there numbers.The red corsairs have nowhere near those numbers, after 300 years of expanding there numbers.

Actually, they only had a 140,000 at Istvaan V. Over the course of Heresy, the number of casualties they suffered pointed to the actual number being much much larger, at least on par with the 250,000 of the Ultramarines.

 

As for growth, if incidents like Dark Creed are common enough that all Erebus does is go "It must be five o'clock somewhere" then the chances are their "growth" would be stymied by the attrition rate. Basically, they'd still be huge but not huge enough to disprove the claim that the Black Legion are the most powerful and organized of the Legions.

[Cap'm Heckus]

Just bought the book.  Gotta say, I like it.  

 

It gives a boost to a lot of units with only a marginal drawback.   Free fear on everything (even cultists), Preferred enemy/plasma chosen, slighty-more viable Dark Apostle options, Divination sorceror, cheap wargear that doesnt suck (artificer armor with "it will not die"), a reason to possibly take possessed (maaaaaybe), a fluff reason to take Fabius Bile (he's done them some favors).  Go us.

 

I do have one area of concern:  BL supplement, under allies, says something to the effect of of "uses the C:CSM matrix AND can ally with C:CSM as battle brothers".  CS supplement, under allies, just says "may allies with C:CSM as battle bros" but says NOTHING about using the the C:CSM matrix.  Does this mean C:CSM are their only option, no allying with IG, BL, or Daemons??

[Plague Angel]

The word bearers had a hundred and fifty thousand marines at the outbreak of the heresy and probably substantially more now. As they have had ten thousand years to bluster there numbers.

 

In those ten thousand years, the Word Bearers are no longer recruiting as a Legion, having splintered into various Word Bearer warbands that intermingle with other warbands of various allegiances based on which champion is most favored by the Dark Gods. That's where their loyalty lies. If a Word Bearer favors Slaanesh most of all, and his commanding officer from the Heresy days is weak in his overall faith, while this champion over here from the Crimson Slaughter is being given more gifts by Slaanesh every day, the Slaaneshi Word Bearer follows someone else now.

 

I mean, it's only been this way for every Chaos codex ever, you think people would notice.

[Wade Garrett]

Index Astartes: Word Bearers, Dark Apostle, Dark Disciple, and Dark Creed all say that the XVII still recruits as a Legion, with Hosts led by Dark Apostles who are annointed by the Council of Sicarus.

 

Perhaps the faithless Legions have splintered into mere warbands, but the children of the Urizen are made of sterner stuff.

[Plague Angel]

Oh, alright. I'm wrong then.

 

I stand by the general structure of what I said in terms of the other Legions, since that's how the Chaos codices describe the situation (see also: Night Lords trilogy). But for Word Bearers, and perhaps others, I'm wrong.

[Son of Carnelian]

You know what the Crimson Slaughter Codex does better than any other codex in sixth edition? The artifacts actually make me feel like I am constructing a character rather than a just giving some special wargear to a blank slate. They have better background, effects, and even names than any other artifacts. 

[Wade Garrett]

No worries.

 

As far as I'm aware, the Black Legion and the Word Bearers are the only two with any kind of cohesion.

 

The Thousand Sons, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Death Guard, and Night Lords are warbands, the Alpha Legion were barely unified even when they were a Legion, and the Iron Warriors are in a weird spot.

 

Storm of Iron and Siege of Castellax suggest a degree of unity, but Dead Sky, Black Sun shows their homeworld Medengard as being made of nothing but the fortresses of their Warsmiths with each one simultaneously laying siege to and being besieged by all of its neighbors.

[Warsmith Aznable]

 

Storm of Iron and Siege of Castellax suggest a degree of unity, but Dead Sky, Black Sun shows their homeworld Medengard as being made of nothing but the fortresses of their Warsmiths with each one simultaneously laying siege to and being besieged by all of its neighbors.

 

It's not mutually exclusive. That the two warsmiths bothered to state their grievances before committing to a fight says something about the situation, in my mind. They had a gentleman's agreement, which Honsou renegotiated based on his warband's extra efforts, and they settled their issue with a duel. It's just that Iron Warriors don't fire pistols at one another at dawn, they smash each other's fortresses. When one Warsmith dies, his men, having really nothing to do with the original disagreement, join up with the victor.

 

Really, it's all very civilized.

[Minsc]

You know what the Crimson Slaughter Codex does better than any other codex in sixth edition? The artifacts actually make me feel like I am constructing a character rather than a just giving some special wargear to a blank slate. They have better background, effects, and even names than any other artifacts. 

 

+1.

 

It's probably the only artifact-list where I actually could consider fielding all of them at some point.

[Kol Saresk]

The Iron Warriors and Word Bearers are in equal boats. There's a council of lords/apostles that are the "top dogs". Below them are the various commanders of the Hosts/Grand Companies. Below that is pretty much ad hoc. Word Bearers shows a division straight into coteries while Storm of Iron showed smaller companies within the Grand Company.

 

I think what separates them from the Black Legion is the amount of infighting. For example, in Dead Sky, Black Sun, three entire Grand Companies are virtually wasted fighting each other. Honsou has to rebuild his warband from scratch the numbers were so depleted.

 

And Dark Creed, something like six entire Hosts, one of which numbered 2,000 IIRC were destroyed in what is considered a minor quarrel between Erebus and Kor Phaeron. Meanwhile, infighting amongst the Black Legion is unheard of. At least for the moment.