Seeking Help: Sonic Weapons & I5

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Hey all,

 

I know some of you have read my many complaints about facing off against Emperor's Children in 6th or any other edition. I have a friend of mine who runs a very specific list taking full advantage of both Sonic Weaponry and his I5 so that he has very little if no weakness at all.

 

I am not looking for an instant solution but a constant discussion on what could work and how to improve against him so that I could someday win more than just 1 game out of every 10 or 15.

 

Any takers?

[Silver fang]

What seems to be the problem?

 

Does he end up with too many weapons on his marines?

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

It would help a ton if you could post what he uses in his list and what you use and the usual tactic he uses.

[Midnightmare]

Mephiston - he is great against csm in general, same applies to Noise Marines. Now if they have Daemonette allies (like one of my regular opponents!) things can get hairier....

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Thanks for the interest!

 

List consists usually of the following:

 

1 Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh

1 Daemon Prince

3-5 Noise Marine Squads(depending on game size), he will usually outfit 1 or 2 as support fire squads(sonic weapons galore) and 2-3 as close combat units(champion with power weapon and some kind of AP2 flamer) CC squads are always in Rhinos.

1 Predator(all lascanons)

1 Defiler

 

Other nasty things:

Squad of 5 terminators

he has a vindicator and 2 other Daemon Princes that he is considering building a "monster mash" list around.

 

The problem as you may notice above, is that it is a list filled with threat and with very little weakness.(as far as I've been able to take advantage of in games)

[Jolemai]

What have you been trying?

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Mostly:

 

2X 10man assault squads

varying size of DC with Reclusiarch(either in a raven or landraider)
2X Baal preds

2X fragiosos in pods

a 6 man sternguard all combi meltas in a pod

 

if points allow it: sanguinary priests in JP to each assault squad.

 

recently added: honour guard with librarian and razorback as a shooty tank busting unit.

 

on the shelf: 10 terminators, 10 tactical marines, 1 razorbacks.

 

I feel that pound for pound(or point for point) he is far superior to whatever I can throw at him, so it becomes a match up based fight, which he has been winning(for each of his threats that I neutralize, I usually lose 1.5 to 2 of mine.)

[Jolemai]

Basics: Get your target priority right. Also, shoot the choppy and chop the shooty. Never go for a fair fight.

 

In that list you only really require one Priest. Does he have a Jump Pack and a Power Weapon? (Preferably Axe) Put your two RAS with the Priest behind your AV wall. Take both Baals and have them flanking your Death Company in their Raider of choice.

Your two Fragiosos are good distraction units and should be used to apply pressure. Do they have Magna Grapples? Pod three can be either the Honour Guard or the Sternguard. If it's the latter, give them the second Priest should points allow. This also gives you the flexibility to drop a Fragioso and a melta unit to remove their Predator. The Librarian should start on the field rather than be with a Drop pod. Use the remaining unit's Razorback (armament? Las/plas is great for us) to cover a Baal flank as it all rolls up.

 

Maybe the Tacticals and/or the Terminators should points allow. That's probably what I'd do anyway.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

So one big column led by the tanks followed by the ASM?

[Jolemai]

For the most part, that's how I'd play it. The tanks clear the way with the distractions playing their part and the RAS mop up afterwards. The fact is, your scoring troops need protection (hence the Priest) and having line of sight to them blocked - which is why they follow behind the tanks.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be worried about a list like that...

 

How are you upgrading your troops? For the RAS do you put a Power Weapon on the sergeant and two special weapons in the squad? (I.e Melta Guns) Are you using the Combat Squad rule for games which aren't kill point games? If the Daemon Prince flies, shoot it with the Stormraven or before then, with the Baals as only one hit is needed to cause a grounding test. (I assume they have Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters?) Also, pop his transports resulting in the squad having to foot slog. Would recommend getting the Champion with the Burning Brand out of the way first and keeping any marines out of line of sight from it...

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

well see that's the thing. target priority wise I see it as 5 things need to go down/be occupied in the first turn:

Prince, both CC Rhinos(if not more), the defiler and the predator. Looking at my own list I don't see how I can cope with all that in 1 turn(especially since my dice rolls barely follow the odds, more often there worse)

 

How would you match things up?(maybe I've been doing that wrong)

[Blindhamster]

I'd ignore the prince turn 1, the only 1st turn enemy I'd consider a priority would maybe be the defiler...

 

I'd drop the combi meltas and just use bolters on the sternguard, but run them with a priest. maybe put a combi melta on the sergeant, I've found I've had the most success with sternguard by keeping them cheap, have a priest to keep them alive in general but more importantly to reduce the risk of death by vengeance rounds, a librarian works well too for this (prescience).

 

Focus fire... focus fire is your friend. By this, I don't mean the focus on enemies not in cover though, I mean, don't spread your fire thinly over his army, choose a target, deal with it till it's dead.

 

What does the tactical squad have for weapons? same question for the razorback?

 

 

I'd use the tacticals and razorback against the defiler (assuming lascannons on the razorback and either krak rocket or lascannon on tacticals), get the sternguard up to 8 men and add the priest and librarian, put them in a pod and bring them down turn two, either buy the other pod bud put something throw away in it... or maybe try a single dread, but it'll suck probably... anyway, I'd use the sternguard with rapid firing vengeance rounds that have rerolls from the librarian on turn 2 to deal with either a CC squad if they've disembarked, or a sonic squad if not. If the libarian is an epistolary, i'd hope to luck out on 4+ invulnerable save for the entire unit power...

 

What do the baals have for weapons? flamestorms or assault cannons? I've found the flamestorm to be much better but heavy bolters are a better choice at all times as you cannot snap fire template weapons (which means if you move 12, you cannot use heavy flamers)

 

If you have flamestorms, use those to destroy the sonic weapons squads by bringing them in from outflank.

[Kilofix]

I actually play EC so maybe I can help.

 

Noise Marines are both shooty and choppy. They have Salvo 2/4 Ignores Cover sonic weapons, I5, FNP, 2 close combat weapons, a heavy weapon (BlastMaster) for every 5 and the leader has a flamer (Doom Siren). They will hit first and are otherwise just as tough as BA Assault with S-Priest.

 

The thing about Noise Marines though is:

1. Only the heavy weapon and the leader (Melta Bombs) could have something that can take AV13

2. The leader HAS to issue a challenge in close combat

3. If the icon bearer dies, they lose FNP

4. If they move, then the heavy can't fire and their range drops to 12" (Salvo 2)

 

So - you have to go heavy armor (AV13 Furiosos, Preds, Baals, Vindi) and Scouts.

 

Then:

1. Kill his Predator and Defiler - suicide the Sternguard with Pod and Melta to take the Predator first. If you lose them all then resort to LasPreds of your own to kill the Defiler - it's only AV12 so it is not that tough

2. Kill his DP with the Baals. If he flys, then have a bunch of 5-man unit Scouts shoot him. For every unit (not model but unit) that hits him (not wounds but hits) - he will have to take a grounding test. If he fails, he takes a big hit and then can be shot by everything else at regular BS

3. Kill his Rhinos before they can disembark - using your tanks again

4. Snipe the NM Heavies if you can with Scouts again, then kill all the NMs with AV13 Preds or Baals, or;

5. Systematically assault his NMs with the AV13 Furioso (Blood Talons) AND with Mephiston (or any other character - even a sergeant). Have your character take the challenge to tie up his NM leader, while the Furioso kills everything else that won't otherwise be able to hurt it. NMs are also Fearless so he can't choose to flee with Our Weapons Are Useless

 

Hope that helps.

 

Edit - Forgot to say, also Snipe his icon bearer and he loses FNP

[Morticon]

Needs more Mephy.

[Kilofix]

More thoughts.

 

If you roll under 5 - you could also use Psykers to snipe the heavy weapon NMs.

 

If you don't have enough AV13, hide / save them for use against the NMs. Instead you could even Drop Pod Tacticals to use against his Defiler. It isn't ideal but it is only AV10 on the rear. You could Bolter glance + 1 Krak it to death. Then maybe have the Razorback try to take out a Rhino.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

This is great guys!

Kilofix, you mentioned to use the "cheap" sternguards to down the defiler? Which rounds are we talking about?

 

And the recommendation seems to be AV13 vs NM, but they can only be good if I can pop the rhinos. If the pred and defiler are my targets for turn 1, then those rhinos aren't getting popped until turn 2 and I won't be striking at those NM until turn 3?(which by then there in CC and wiping my squads.)

[Xenith]

Mephiston is the hard counter pretty much anything the CSM lost has to offer.

 

Your only real problem will be if all of those terminators are deepstriking with combi plasma (whish is what I would do, they're chaos's sternguard...).

 

The doom siren is only AP3, so meph has nothing to fear. Charge a dread in first to absorb overwatch.

[Red Fury]

I think he said "suicide sternguard" not necessarily cheap.  I'd add another 4 guys to the sternguard so that you can drop in first turn and combat squad to take out 2 units instead of one.  3 meltas in each would work and if the first squad doesn't crack its target, pred or defy, then the second squad can elect to follow up on the same target.  

 

You also have a dred coming in 1st turn, and the frag cannon has a chance at popping open a rhino or rear armor 10 on the big guys.

 

 

 

[Kilofix]

Yeah, in Turn 1:

 

Drop-Pod the Sternguard as two suicide combat squads to kill the Pred first and the Defiler second, by firing into their rear AV10 armor.

 

Also, Drop-Pod, Tactical Marines, and not the Furioso (because you want to save it for the NMs later), as two suicide combat squads to kill the Rhinos by firing into its rear AV10 armor.

 

 

 

Hide the Land Raider, hide the Baals and save the third drop-pod w/Furioso to use against the NMs once the Pred and Defiler are dead.

 

Challenge the NM leader (that may have Melta Bombs) with Meph or a Sergeant in order to let the Furioso with Blood Talons kill the rest of the NM squad.

 

Have lots of small units fire on the DP if it is flying to force it to take a grounding test.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Thanks Guys!

I won't be having a game this week but I'll keep these in mind and report back soon.

 

This is really helpful!

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

First official update:

 

Had a game vs this friend of mine last week using a proxy/test SG army. Most competitive game we have every had!(it has initialized my idea to make myself a SG army)

 

This week we are back to regular BA. I am going in with:

 

Reclusiarch

7 DC Marines

Landraider

 

3X 8 man assault squads

SGT equipped with power weapon and storm shield

 

3X Sanguinary Priest with JP

 

5 Man Sternguard Veteran Squad

4 combi plasmas/meltas

Librarian

Drop Pod

 

2X Baal Class Predators with Flamestorm Canon only

 

and 28 points to spare. I was thinking of 1 melta gun per assault marine squad. what say you?

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

Well that's another devastating loss.

Game was based on 5 objectives.

Warlord trait was "your warlord counts as a scoring unit" hurrah! My DC + Chaplain can capture objectives! w00t!

His was "D3 of your units have infiltrate", he rolls...3 units.

 

He sets up first and has a central firebase of 1 shooty EC squad, the defiler and his predator with an EC squad in a rhino not too far that has infiltrated into cover. on the wing he has his raptors and a rhino with an EC close combat squad and Lucius that have infiltrated into cover. Terminators in reserve. Daemon prince hidden behind cover on the other wing.

 

I set up to respond and decide to put a Baal with only flamestorm on the raptor wing along with 1 of my assault squads, I then have my land raider+DC in the middle flanked with a Baal with assault canon and heavy bolters. 2 other assault squads are hidden behind cover and the landraider.

 

So he has first turn, advances his Lucius rhino and completely wipes my assault squad with both flamers.

my turn, drop in the sternguards, blow his lucius rhino and move my Baal into position to flamer them down. Only 2 deaths.

Nothing else of note.

 

His turn, raptors come around and blow up my Baal, Lucius eats the Sternguards. I have now lost the wing and an objective that I won't be able to get for the rest of the game as Lucius is going to sit on it and I want nothing to do against that squad.(Nor do I have anything that can kill it anymore...)

 

The rest of the game was rather ineventful. I played conservative, saw what the Stormshield + Power Axe combo can do to his CC squads and enjoyed it, but was playing from behind and never caught up. Final score: 8(first blood, line breaker & 2 objectives) to 4(1 objective and line breaker). And I feel like there is nothing in or out of the Codex that could have changed how this game ended...I'm a little bummed out, heading back to the drawing board with slumped shoulders and my tail firmly tucked between my legs.

 

Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

[Kilofix]

How many points total were you playing - just wondering?

 

Also, (I may be wrong but) sounds like you're still using your Assault Marines to go toe-to-toe against his EC which is still not a good match up.

 

I would have used the Sternguard to kill his Predator (instead of the Rhino), then use the Furiosos, Land Raider, Baal etc. (stuff with AV13 / 14) to take his Infantry.

 

Rock < Paper < Scissors. Don't try to go Rock vs Rock because sounds like his is bigger.

 

Other than that, the Baal Predator only killing 2 and then getting taken out by the Raptors - sounds like just bad luck. Did he Melta or Assault it?

[Tabgoi]

It looks like you are running 2k matches. Mephy is really hard to counter for chaos and vindis are their bane. At 2k I always run two vindis two baals (ac/hb). I give them 4 problems to deal with, add meph and that is five. I have yet to meet a player who realized those are the distraction. Your enemy will be so worried about those few units (granted a lot of points) that the rest of your army will be practically unmollested. The target priority previously mentioned is right on.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

1850 was the point total.

 

He melta'd the raptors and I have to take luck out because he's just an over the odds player. If he needs a 6, he gets it. Everytime.

 

I didn't have the points for Furiosos this time around, was trying something new(see post above last to see the list).

 

I don't own any vindicators or a Mephiston counts as...I was thinking of adding a Knight to have him worry about something big on my end of the table, but feeling like that isn't going to help much.

 

Looking back on the game, I feel like I should have sacrificed the Baal to save the assault marines and have them high tail it out of there closer to the my DC Landraider just to have him wonder if it was worth getting close. I feel had I done that, I would have been able to focus the sternguards on his predator which would have allowed me to breathe more instead of having a lascanon war that lasted four turns between it and my landraider. I won that, but that's too long to eliminate one threat in an army that has 5 or 6.