Kilofix Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 If you have some time on your hands to help with some math (mine isn't very good): Does it sound right that it will take on average 14 Space Marines with Bolt Pistol and CC weapons to reliably kill 10 Space Marines with only Bolters in close combat? Assuming no cover, with the former starting outside 24" range, with the latter not moving and all other things being equal? Thanks. Avg. Turn 3 for 4 or 5 Marines (9 or 10 dead) to make it into CC to kill 10 Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Running through the averages fairly quickly in my head, I'd say it sounds about right: the combat marines kill the bolter marines at the bottom of turn four. Those extra attacks do a lot of work, especially on the turn they charge. I'm sure someone can work the mathhammer out better than I did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3610727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 If I laid out my spreadsheet right .... 11.5 assault troops will remove 10 bolter only tacticals in the second player turn of turn 5 (the shortest game length). 9.9 is the minimum number that can kill 10 bolter models before the end of the game (bottom of Turn 7) but will have 3.3 models left at the end. edit to add another quick one. 8 assault models is the mimimum needed to end turn 5 with >1 models left while 8.8 assault models will end turn 7 with > 1 models remaining. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3610765 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilofix Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 If I laid out my spreadsheet right .... 11.5 assault troops will remove 10 bolter only tacticals in the second player turn of turn 5 (the shortest game length). 9.9 is the minimum number that can kill 10 bolter models before the end of the game (bottom of Turn 7) but will have 3.3 models left at the end. edit to add another quick one. 8 assault models is the mimimum needed to end turn 5 with >1 models left while 8.8 assault models will end turn 7 with > 1 models remaining. Thanks! That actually helps immensely. It means that for a TAC list in a tourney, I could still push a CC Marine unit forward to try to charge an equivalent sized shooty MEQ unit (barring any heavy weapons), in order to preoccupy the latter. Edit - It isn't ideal, but if I have to do it, at least I know there is some chance of the former actually killing the latter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3610907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garath Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 You are bettr off using tacticals yourself. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3611798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 If you have some time on your hands to help with some math (mine isn't very good): Does it sound right that it will take on average 14 Space Marines with Bolt Pistol and CC weapons to reliably kill 10 Space Marines with only Bolters in close combat? Assuming no cover, with the former starting outside 24" range, with the latter not moving and all other things being equal? Thanks. Avg. Turn 3 for 4 or 5 Marines (9 or 10 dead) to make it into CC to kill 10 Marines. Is this factoring in any kind of power weapon? Be interesting to see how much faster it happens with a power sword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3612097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well right off you will make it into combat with more then 5 marines. Turn 1, start at 24.5" away. 14 marines in Squad-A (Assault squad) move 6", then run 3.5" in shooting phase 10 marines in Squad-B (Bolter squad) fire 10 shots (15" away) getting 20/3 hits (10 times 2/3), 10/3 wounds (half of the hits), 10/9 unsaved(one third of the wounds) for 1.11 causalties for speed, each shooting phase will be wrapped up as shots/9 unsaved wounds. Turn 2 starts at 15" away 12.89 marines in Squad-A move 6" -- now 9" away -- and fire bolt pistols. 12.89/9 = 1.43 unsaved wounds 8.57 marines left in Squad-B rapid fire -- 17.14/9 for 1.9 unsaved wounds Turn 3 starts 9" away 10.99 marines in Squad-A move 6" to 3" away. Fire bolt pistols for 10.99/0 = 1.2 unsaved wounds. -- Squad-A assaults 3" Squad-B (now 7.37 marines) overwatch fires for 7.37/6 hits; 3.685/6 wounds, 3.685/18 unsaved wounds or 0.2 casualties So the Assault squad makes it into close combat at the top of turn 3 with 10.79 marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3612452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Just because I like doing stuff like this ... 10 Tacticals with a power-fist Sgt vs an equal number of points of possessed CSM 5 possessed with MoT and VotLW Turn 1, 24.5" away 5 Possessed move 6" and run 3.5" 10 Marines fire 9 bolter shots for 9/9 or 1 unsaved wound. Turn 2, 15" away 4 Possesed move 6" and run 3.5" to 5.5" away 10 Marines rapidfire 9 bolters and 1 bolt pistol. 19/9 casualties or 2.1 casualties Turn 3, 1.9 possessed move 4.5" and charge 10 marines overwatch with 9 bolters and a bolt pistol. 19/6 hits, 19/12 wounds, 19/36 unsaved wounds or 0.53 casualties. 1.37 possessed make it into combat. 3 attacks each at AP3 = 4.11 attacks, 2.055 hits, 1.0275 (1.03) wounds with no saves. 9 marines (same Init) get 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 2.25 wounds for 0.75 unsaved wounds. 1 sgt attacks with 2 attacks, 1 hit, 5/6 wounds, 5/12 unsaved wounds or 0.41 casualties. Marins cause 1.16 total casualties. Bottom of turn 3. 0.21 possessed 2 attacks each, half hit, half wound, no saves == 0.21/2 wounds with no saves or about 0.1 casualties. 7.79 marines with 1 attack each, half hit, half wound, 1/3 are unsaved for 7.79/12 == 0.66 unsaved wounds 1 sgt with 2 attacks, half hit, 5/6 wounds, half saved == 5/12 or 0.41 casualties. Bolter marines win in 3 with 8.78 models remaining. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3612504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Well right off you will make it into combat with more then 5 marines. Turn 1, start at 24.5" away. 14 marines in Squad-A (Assault squad) move 6", then run 3.5" in shooting phase 10 marines in Squad-B (Bolter squad) fire 10 shots (15" away) getting 20/3 hits (10 times 2/3), 10/3 wounds (half of the hits), 10/9 unsaved(one third of the wounds) for 1.11 causalties for speed, each shooting phase will be wrapped up as shots/9 unsaved wounds. Turn 2 starts at 15" away 12.89 marines in Squad-A move 6" -- now 9" away -- and fire bolt pistols. 12.89/9 = 1.43 unsaved wounds 8.57 marines left in Squad-B rapid fire -- 17.14/9 for 1.9 unsaved wounds Turn 3 starts 9" away 10.99 marines in Squad-A move 6" to 3" away. Fire bolt pistols for 10.99/0 = 1.2 unsaved wounds. -- Squad-A assaults 3" Squad-B (now 7.37 marines) overwatch fires for 7.37/6 hits; 3.685/6 wounds, 3.685/18 unsaved wounds or 0.2 casualties So the Assault squad makes it into close combat at the top of turn 3 with 10.79 marines. Nice! My quick and dirty approximation had 11 CC marines assaulting 8 tactical marines on turn 3. Good to see I still remember how it all works. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3612557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Are you factoring in tactical marines moving 6" backwards every turn before shooting? Don't see why they would stand and be charged when they can move away while firing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3613073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlamingDeth Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 I think he is because he's only counting the assault marines as moving 6", which if the tactical squad wasn't moving would mean that they're footslogging without jump packs, which would just be silly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3613630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 The original question had the bolter marines standing still, but it didn't specify why. I figured the bolter marines were holding an objective. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/287595-14-bolt-pistol-cc-marines-to-kill-10-bolter-marines/#findComment-3613633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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