Constructive Self Evaluation

[IK Viper]

I enjoy playing GK and really want to continue using them in my tournament lists.  To this end I would like to start a discussion centered around objectively identifying the strengths of the codex when compared to the rest of the meta in order to identify 3 things:

 

1. What advantages do GK have

2. How do we build battle plans/ lists that benefit from these strengths

3. What are our deficiancies that we either need to play/plan around or try to ally in help.

 

For the purpose of this discussion lets just assume that the meta we are playing in does NOT include Escalation, Stronghold, and Forge World, as these factors vary from region to region.

 

Please add in thoughts on these 3 points as you think of them and collectively I hope we can pool our experience to squeeze as much play out of the Knights as we can.

 

1. Strengths of the Grey Knights

 

S5 to S7 in large volumes: we force saves... pure and simple.  We don't really loose a lot of efficiency when shooting at targets in cover as we are usually just forcing saves any way, but we have a high volume of saves.  This makes GK units really good at killing all forms of infantry though we struggle a bit against 2+ saves

 

Lots of AP4 shooting/Rending:  Psycannons tear through 4+ armour and Rending makes every unit a possible anti-AV unit, even vs. AV 14. 

 

Force Weapons/ Assault: we pay alot of point for out lightsabers but they are actually really good when used.  A strike squad will tear through a tactical sqaud or similar unit pretty effectively, specially with the charge. 

 

Psykers Everywhere:  good at fighting psykers/ daemons and also have BoS ourselves which lends to a 1+ Deny the Witch, plus the Aegis and you have an above average Deny capability.

 

Warp Quake:  Really tactically important ability to prevent DS units from gaining full effect against us

 

Deeps Strike on most things:  this can be seen as a cheap form of built in transportation, against some armies DS is a very viable option and can realy help to off set the cost of these units.

 

Ability to Kill Multi-Wound Models: force weapons can really swing a combat or clean out units that otherwise would take a long time to hack through.  GK units are far supperior than other MEQ units at taking on things like Wraiths, Khorne Dogs, Chaos Spawn, Blight Drones, Thunderwolf Cav. etc. just becasue ofthe force weapon mechanic.  This is now doubly effective against the new daemons as they will often loose by ALOT in combat and Instability will damage them even further.

 

Henchman: very points efficent/ killy but now everyone has access to them so I would not use GK just for access to these guys any more... We are no longer special :-(  If you want henchman in your list you can get them more easily without the GK Codex. For this reason I see them as a strength, but not as a compelling reason to select GK as your competative army.

 

2. Battle Plan/List

 

This is honestly the place where I struggle the most with GK.  They have alot of well rounded units that can do many things, but very few speciallized tools.  For example: a tac. sqaud with melta is best sent at tanks, plasma is better at light AV and heavy infantry, flamers give a unit great anti-horde options.  Unlike marines, GK have basically the Psycannon, the Storm Bolter, and CC force weapons of different styles.  Each unit can do each of the above roles, but is only really super good at killing light infantry, which GK are nasty at.  For this reason I think playing GK right now is not about the wargear you take, most people accept that you take Psycannons and Psybolts if you have the points and run big squads, easy enough.  But the implimentation is what is lacking.   When I win with GK it is because I establish good firing positions in the middle of the board and blister the enemy with Psycannon fire, usually using what AP2 I have to deal with MC's and Flyers  in order to allow my troops to focus on what they do best, pelting infantry with wounds. When I loose it is often becasue my guys are forced to trade blows with a more efficient force and in a tit for tat fight the GK points cost problem will grind you down. 

 

I think that in order to actually leverage all the strengths of GK units you need to play in the enemy half of the board and eventually look to assault as this is where our units distance themselves from cheaper MEQ units with almost comperable shooting abilities. 

 

3. Weaknesses

 

Lack of  true AP2, specially at long range: in the MC and Wave Serpant based meta there is a need for long range high strength AP1-2 shooting to deal with Broadsides, Riptides, Wraithknights, etc. All of these left unchecked can really beat on GK units.

 

Short Range in general:  we have to get close, aka we have to walk into the teeth of the enemy to effectively use our weapons.

 

Few Units:  not just that they are expensive but that we literally have fewer squads to shoot with, limiting our ability to engage multiple small units.  Most of the Psycic powers GK use are from Divination which apply their benefits to whole squads, so there is a balance between splitting up to get more units and granularity vs. staying together to gain maximum use of Div. Powers.

[Gentlemanloser]

1: Stand out units from our Codex;

 

Coteaz

IBEY, 2 Psychic Powers, 2+ Save and a Hammer.  There is literally no reason not to take him in every single GK list.  He's that good.

 

If you don't need him as a GK HQ, take him from Codex: Inquisition, to give him Battle Brother status.

 

 

Nemesis Dreadknight

One of the best MCs in the game, with a S10, AP2 CC attack at iniative as standard.  The Heavy Incinerator is a S6 Torrent flamer that will make Xenos/GEQ weep.

 

Add a PT for movement.

 

 

Grey Knight Grandmaster

Simply for The Grand Strategy.  The ability to play havok with scoring restricitons is unbeatable.

 

 

Servo Skulls

Killing Infiltrate and Scout armies dead.  For a minimal cost.

 

 

Inquisitors

Cheap Divination rerolls.  One of the ultimate force multipliers in the game.

[BloodTzar]

Answer to the point 3. is - Tram dad ada daaaa- RED HUNTERS! 

 

Nah, jokes aside, red hunters bring GK all the toys we lack at range, with the special twist of the free special ability/ies once per game.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

One of the biggest things not mentioned in the OP is our overall slowness. We're a very infantry-focused list (ironic, given we don't field that many models anyway), and given how 6th edition has ruined Rhinos as a viable transport (Hull Points, the gift that keeps on giving), we're left with either risking Deepstrike or walking. I say risking Deepstrike, because thanks to Tau we not only have to contend with the scatter dice, Mishap table, enemy counter-deployment denying good landing spots etc (all standard issue problems since 4th at least), InterTides vapourise units on landing. Walking is a problem as well, because we're a mid-range force that likes to finish the job in melee. Again, enjoy getting vaped before you every make weapon range. 

 

These days, I'm leaning more and more towards Ravens with homers bringing in a focused strike on an enemy flank. Purifiers or melee Henchmen in the Raven as cargo, with Strikes/Terminators in Reserve landing off the homer the turn after the Raven (using Henchmen to fulfill mandatory drops at deployment, thanks again GW for 6th edition Reserve rules). That way, you're all up the enemy's grill Turn 3, forcing either a re-position or a very bloody fight if they choose to stay. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Or, you could just do that turn 1 with Interceptors and Teleporting Dreadknights.

 

I don't see the benefit of setting up a turn 3 Deep Strike when we have access to the above.

[IK Viper]

Dreadknights are great and can kill almost anything in CC for sure. sadly they only have 4 wounds...  one Grav. Bike squad will vaporize him with 2 Grav and a Combi Grav...  I think the DK is to expensive these days for what he gives.  Though against some armies the DK is near unstoppable... very matchup dependant IMO. 

 

I agree that the Grandmaster is a big help in alot of lists.   You pay a lot for a not very useful charactor with the exception of allowing Scout. or Scoring but he is very expensive and should really come with an Orbital Bombardment to make him worth the points.

[jeffersonian000]

"Hull Points killed Vehicles in 6th" is a bit of a misnomer. MSU is a viable tactic due the fact that killing the transport pulls "overkill" off the squad. 6th is a game of overkill, where massed fire is dumped into an enemy unit in order to force enough failed saves to remove the unit from play. Combat Squads take twice the overkill to remove from play as is needed for just a single 10man squad. Putting that 10man in a Rhino will require the same overkill to remove as it would Combat Squads. Putting a Combat Squad'd unit into a Rhino will take 4 times the Overkill to remove. This means that Rhinos and Razors do have a tactical and strategic role in a MEQ list, and GK are MEG if you want to maximize PAGK Stormbolters.

 

Although, personally, I'm a TEQ GK player these days, so I have to plan on dealing with Combat Squads in Rhinos, if my opponent goes that route.

 

SJ

[Quozzo]

Reclusiarch Darius, on 06 Mar 2014 - 12:14, said:

That way, you're all up the enemy's grill Turn 3.

I gotta agree with GL on this one. Relying on a unit in reserves to brin in a unit from reserves in going to be unpredictable. You say we're best in CC and you may be in their face on turn three, but then you cant assault after deep striking the the strikes/termies which is not playing against our strengths. I feel a landraider for ~40 points more will better suit the termies.

[IK Viper]

I have had some success with running Godhammer Landreaiders as they give Las Canon fire at range, protect Strike Marines from fire, and get our units across the field into the enemy.  They are more reliable in this respect becasue they are always going to be there, no need for a reserve roll.  Only problem is that you give up Skyfire options. 

 

I really think Landraiders solve alot of GK problems becasue it gets our guys where they need to go safely, can bring AP 2, and allow assaults out of the tank instead of having to stand exposed to fire for a turn. Most lists don't have the tools to kill lots of Landraiders.  In a 5 game tournament a few weeks ago I lost one Raider through all 5 games, and that was becasue it got eaten by Scarabs. :-(

[jeffersonian000]

I too have noticed the meta swing currently ignored AV14 in favor of massed fire. Water Warrior tactics still work in 6th.

 

SJ

[IK Viper]

I think that I am going to start using Mystics in Raiders to DS in Strikes and DK's going for an overwhelming rush. 

 

I have not played it yet but I suspect that this combo's well with a Inquisition Raider full of CC Henchman, a Mystic, and a Liber Hereticus Inquisitor (book gives Scout on Ld test)  Could be a really cool way of pushing a nasty CC unit and a locator beacon into the enemy DZ

 

I also would not fear putting stuff in Ravens as much if I knew I could jump out without scattering on the turn they arrive, effectively "hiding" these guys in reserves by starting them in the Ravens.  Comms Relay is a must though.  With those overwhelm from reserves lists you must not come in piecemeal or you will loose.

 

a non PT DK is very cheap for what he does, the only concern is getting him there, which is easier with locators...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Or, you could just do that turn 1 with Interceptors and Teleporting Dreadknights.

 

I don't see the benefit of setting up a turn 3 Deep Strike when we have access to the above.

They don't score. Also, Interceptors are as bad as Strikes in melee, plus they don't fulfill mandatory Troops. You're basically forced to take a GM if you field Interceptors, because they're too much of an investment in non-scoring otherwise. DK's I do alpha-strike with, but they're much more durable than Interceptors. 

 

"Hull Points killed Vehicles in 6th" is a bit of a misnomer. MSU is a viable tactic due the fact that killing the transport pulls "overkill" off the squad. 6th is a game of overkill, where massed fire is dumped into an enemy unit in order to force enough failed saves to remove the unit from play. Combat Squads take twice the overkill to remove from play as is needed for just a single 10man squad. Putting that 10man in a Rhino will require the same overkill to remove as it would Combat Squads. Putting a Combat Squad'd unit into a Rhino will take 4 times the Overkill to remove. This means that Rhinos and Razors do have a tactical and strategic role in a MEQ list, and GK are MEG if you want to maximize PAGK Stormbolters.

Tau, Necrons, Eldar, Orks and IG are laughing if you put down mass Rhino hulls. Turn 1 First Blood, not to mention they're crippling your mobility and thus rendering investment in such vehicles worthless (right in the phase of the game where mobility is most crucial). They're happy to wait a turn to kill the infantry that spilled out, because you're never going to make melee range now and you're at least a turn away from being in weapon range yourself. 3 x AV11 HP is not difficult to deal with, even with smoke or 5+ terrain cover. Even if we were talking last edition, I wasn't a fan of the prevailing Purifier MSU that was apparently our only other tourney build besides Draigowing. 6th edition put the nail in the coffin for both builds (well, Riptides in the latter case, but S8+ AP2 already existed with Demolishers and so on). 

 

Maximising PAGK (ie Strikes) is not a good idea. We have specialist units and squads for a reason, they're meant to work together to overcome relative weaknesses. If your plan is to spam Strikes in Rhinos, you're gonna be outmatched. You need Purifiers and DK's at minimum, ideally some Terminators as well. I've mentioned this before, 20-30 strong is a normal Marine list, we can hardly expect to be as numerous when we cost 1/3rd more on average (taking into account upgrades and the need to take full squads where possible). We also have Troop Terminators, which is a hard thing to pass up in an edition that hates 3+ saves and Ignore Cover being everywhere (5+ invul isn't reliable but it can't be stripped off them at least). 

 

If you're purely about cramming as much storm bolter into your list as possible, or even vehicle hulls, Henchmen are far superior. You trade resiliance (which hardly matters these days, xenos seem to get new Marine nuking tools every codex update) for more dudes and absurdly cheap armour unlocks (12pts is a legal Henchmen squad). 

 

I gotta agree with GL on this one. Relying on a unit in reserves to brin in a unit from reserves in going to be unpredictable. You say we're best in CC and you may be in their face on turn three, but then you cant assault after deep striking the the strikes/termies which is not playing against our strengths. I feel a landraider for ~40 points more will better suit the termies. 

Reserves are now on a 3+, all turns of the game (except obviously Turn 1). So, with a Grandmaster, you're looking at pretty reliable Reserves. If you're that concerned about it going smoothly, trade the quad gun on your Aegis Line for a Comms Array. 

>you can't assault after Deepstrike

Nor can you assault when your tank gets nuked halfway across the board thanks to melta weaponry. Land Raiders don't get you into melee, they put a huge target on that unit and basically gurantee you won't make it. Ravens come on from Reserve and Jink+Flyer defences whilst Zooming as far as they can, then Turn 3 they can move 6", unit inside disembarks 6", and then if you're not in charge range something has gone terribly wrong. Both have Assault Ramps, but only one of them is likely to survive the gauntlet of the enemy Shooting phase. Not to mention Land Raiders can't fly over standard bubblewrap tactics used to deny assault units. 

 

I have had some success with running Godhammer Landreaiders as they give Las Canon fire at range, protect Strike Marines from fire, and get our units across the field into the enemy.  They are more reliable in this respect becasue they are always going to be there, no need for a reserve roll.  Only problem is that you give up Skyfire options. 

Do you play exclusively against Orks or something? 

 

I really think Landraiders solve alot of GK problems becasue it gets our guys where they need to go safely, can bring AP 2, and allow assaults out of the tank instead of having to stand exposed to fire for a turn. Most lists don't have the tools to kill lots of Landraiders.  In a 5 game tournament a few weeks ago I lost one Raider through all 5 games, and that was becasue it got eaten by Scarabs. :-(

>most lists don't have the tools to kill Land Raiders

Yep, looks like you play Orks exclusively. Who mysteriously never field Biker Bosses either. 

 

I too have noticed the meta swing currently ignored AV14 in favor of massed fire. Water Warrior tactics still work in 6th.

I dunno about you guys, but no one threw out their melta units where I play. Eldar and Tau love seeing us play 3rd edition strategies that were janky even in their heyday. 

 

 

I think that I am going to start using Mystics in Raiders to DS in Strikes and DK's going for an overwhelming rush. 

 

Or you could do the same thing with a Raven, pay for it to have a teleport homer (it only costs 5pts more than a Mystic and is wargear, not cargo), still save 50 points and have a Flyer transporting your stuff. The same turn your Strikes and DK's show up, the Raven will be in position to land them precisely where needed (assuming its not dead). 

 

I also would not fear putting stuff in Ravens as much if I knew I could jump out without scattering on the turn they arrive, effectively "hiding" these guys in reserves by starting them in the Ravens.  Comms Relay is a must though.  With those overwhelm from reserves lists you must not come in piecemeal or you will loose.

You don't hop out the turn the Raven comes in, there is no point. You Zoom as far as you can to where you'll be need, Jink and Snapfire your weapons, and pray they don't bring a heavy bias against Flyers (which outside of Tau is generally true, most people bring a quad gun or Flyers themselves for Skyfire). Turn 3 you move 6", the unit inside hops out 6", and then you shoot+charge. 

 

 

a non PT DK is very cheap for what he does, the only concern is getting him there, which is easier with locators...

 

I've tried, it doesn't work. Shunt is just so much better and doesn't rely on anything else. Not to mention, Jump Infantry movement for a DK is huge, it gives you so much mobility and it let you ignore terrain and bubblewrap to get at the important stuff. He's got a big target painted on him from deployment, that's why Shunting is so crucial, it gets you into striking distance Turn 1 for a charge on Turn 2, rather than waiting till Turn 4 (which is the absolute earliest you could launch a charge after landing Turn 3 off a Raven or Librarian teleport homer). Teleporters are pricey but there is a reason for it, it makes DK's viable. 

[Gentlemanloser]

They don't score.

The Grand Strategy, Big Guns Never Tire and that Mission that does the same for Fast slots.

Also, Interceptors are as bad as Strikes in melee, plus they don't fulfill mandatory Troops.

You've filled your mandatory troops with Henchmen, right?

You're basically forced to take a GM if you field Interceptors, because they're too much of an investment in non-scoring otherwise. DK's I do alpha-strike with, but they're much more durable than Interceptors.

Nah, you leave them as disposable suicide Squads to tie up Drak Reapers or Ripdtides.

130 points for 5 isn't that expensive. Well, not for the GK that is!

Taking 2/3 5 man Squads (not combat Squads) maximises the extra Justicar attack, and we don't have a wealth of options in that slot to compete with them.

If you're spending 400 points + to deliver a 5 man TDA unit into Assault turn 3, that's only 10 CC attacks.

For the points, you can get 15 Interceptors into CC turn 2, with 18 CC attacks.

GKT from a Raven still looks attractive?

Edit: The 15 Interceptos get 30 Shots turn 1. The GKT get 10 Turn 2.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The Grand Strategy, Big Guns Never Tire and that Mission that does the same for Fast slots.

Yes yes, but if you want them to reliably score, you need a GM. Which is a further cost, not to mention an oppertunity cost (as below 2k we only have 2 HQ slots, and one them is almost always filled by You Know Who)

You've filled your mandatory troops with Henchmen, right?

I guess...I'm really not comfortable with just Henchmen Troops. I mean, Strikes and Terminators are both so good.

Nah, you leave them as disposable suicide Squads to tie up Drak Reapers or Ripdtides.

I'd find a DK a better investment than Intercepters in a Riptide matchup. Riptide can and will remove an Interceptor squad, whereas at best it'll take 2-3 wounds off a DK with shooting, then get murdered in melee.

If you're spending 400 points + to deliver a 5 man TDA unit into Assault turn 3, that's only 10 CC attacks.

Oh no, you don't put Terminators inside the Raven, you land them off it's teleport homer Turn 3. You put melee Henchmen or Purifiers inside the Raven, if anything at all.

Edit: The 15 Interceptos get 30 Shots turn 1. The GKT get 10 Turn 2.

But you don't take GKT for their shooting, you take them for durability and melee. So that's an unfair way to judge the unit. Also, Interceptors are comparably easier to nuke that Terminators, because Heldrakes can kill them.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Oh no, you don't put Terminators inside the Raven

 

Never said you did.

 

But you require a 200+ point Raven to enable the deployment of the 200+ point TDA squad.

 

Plus, if you're landing them turn 3 (so you're using PC to delay them, what happens if you roll high and they coming in turn 2 with the Raven?), they don't get to assault until turn 4.

 

Really, you're taking them out of the game for 3 turns (as you're not taking them for thier shooting...) just to deploy them.

 

That's not good.

[IK Viper]

The reason I am advocating Raiders over Ravens is that in order to actually assault you must hover for a turn and a Raven will quickly die in hover no problem. I agree with the people saying the only thing you need to be putting in them are DCA, they are cheap enough that you have not lost a huge chunk of points if you lose the Raven. also the Raiders start on the field, so your looking to be in position for the turn 2 DS with your Mystic, that way you can DS in on turn 2 and be assaulting on turn 3. I like the Mystic's prescicion DS becasue you can then move the Raider to conceal the squad coming down from alot of fire and then assault next turn.

 

@Reclusiarch Darios => no I basically never play Orks, why do you ask? My normal opponents are Tau, Eldar, Taudar, Chaos Daemons, Space Marines, Chaos SM, and Nids. with the occasional Necron game in there. I like the Raiders becasue they block LOS, bring Las Cannons, and allow assaults without having to sweat over wheather or not a Broadside team's interceptor fire kills my flyer before it gets to do much. it can be a problem when playing alot of flyers but I bring a Purgation squad and 2 OMI's with Psycannons for this. A half strike squad with 2 Psycannons and an OMI, plus a Purgation Sqaud and an OMI, Plus an allied Jokaro Squad with Coteaz (codex inquisition) is plenty of Skyfire in most cases. Killed 6 out of 9 Necron flyers one game with that, and regualrly take out a flyer a turn with them. I know its alot of points in those units, but they are also really damaging against ground targets.

 

I really advocate using a Bastion with GK. A Purgation Squad in a bastion in the middle of the field with an OMI is in most every list I run becasue of the blistering fire it puts out. It can dominate the center pretty well, specially when there are 2-3 objectives within range that they can fire onto.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

The reason I am advocating Raiders over Ravens is that in order to actually assault you must hover for a turn and a Raven will quickly die in hover no problem. 

 

I think RDs talking about using Skies of Fury (or whatever the nerfed verion is called now), where we can DS from the Raven while it flies.

[IK Viper]

^{Yah, I could see that working}

^{I think that is basically the same concept just different applicaiton.  I am looking for the precision and the LOS blocking though.  The locator becons on Ravens don't work on the turn you come in so your looking at best at a turn 4 assault. if you don't hover.}

[jeffersonian000]

RD, I have to ask: what is your table like if your enemy can Line of Sight you on turn 1?

 

Sounds like you need more LoS blocking terrain!

 

SJ

[IK Viper]

That is another good point to throw out here. LoS blockers are really good for GK and marine armies in general.  I think this gives a good general a chance to mitigate a ranged firepower issue.  The most powerful shooting units Tau have for example are Broadsides.  Riptides can do alot but point for point Broadsides lay down alot more firepower.  That said, they are relatively static and with good terrain can be out manuvered in many cases or atleast prevented from wrecking your whole army.  (Yes I know about Smart Missiles, undoubtedly some internet genius would have pointed out how they don't need LOS but you get the idea of limiting their firepower)

 

Even just one good center line of sight blocker can drastically change how the game goes as it can allow you to divide enemy firepower. 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Never said you did.

 

But you require a 200+ point Raven to enable the deployment of the 200+ point TDA squad.

 

Plus, if you're landing them turn 3 (so you're using PC to delay them, what happens if you roll high and they coming in turn 2 with the Raven?), they don't get to assault until turn 4.

 

Really, you're taking them out of the game for 3 turns (as you're not taking them for thier shooting...) just to deploy them.

 

That's not good.

Beats losing them Turn 1 or Turn 2 to enemy shooting. Walking isn't an option, even with good cover you'll get picked apart. Anyway, so long as your ground forces aren't wiped out in the first few turns, having stuff show up later isn't so bad. My usual experience is;

Turn 1: Manouvre, some long-range shooting maybe, both sides trying to avoid giving First Blood

Turn 2: Things start dying, but neither player is going to rush for objectives this early

Turn 3: Serious fighting starts, people start making moves towards objectives or deny the enemy scoring

Turn 4: Bloodiest point

Turn 5: Consolidation or forcing a draw if you can't win

 

So really, it's not so bad you land things Turn 3/4, that's generally when they're most needed. And as I mentioned, the enemy can't shoot them in Reserve. Ignoring Riptides for a moment (which are broken insanity), most lists won't wipe out all your Reserves the turn they arrive. 

 

The reason I am advocating Raiders over Ravens is that in order to actually assault you must hover for a turn and a Raven will quickly die in hover no problem. I agree with the people saying the only thing you need to be putting in them are DCA, they are cheap enough that you have not lost a huge chunk of points if you lose the Raven. also the Raiders start on the field, so your looking to be in position for the turn 2 DS with your Mystic, that way you can DS in on turn 2 and be assaulting on turn 3. I like the Mystic's prescicion DS becasue you can then move the Raider to conceal the squad coming down from alot of fire and then assault next turn. 

No, you declare which mode you are in at the start of the Movement phase. Ergo, declare Turn 3 (after arriving Turn 2) you are going to Hover, move 6", disembark 6", shoot+charge. 

 

Well, yeah, but not every list has DCA. I prefer Purifiers as cargo, because A: they're amazing infantry and B: they are just about the only infantry choice (beside Purgators, which they make redundant) that can't Deepstrike natively. 

 

@Reclusiarch Darios => no I basically never play Orks, why do you ask? My normal opponents are Tau, Eldar, Taudar, Chaos Daemons, Space Marines, Chaos SM, and Nids. with the occasional Necron game in there. I like the Raiders becasue they block LOS, bring Las Cannons, and allow assaults without having to sweat over wheather or not a Broadside team's interceptor fire kills my flyer before it gets to do much. it can be a problem when playing alot of flyers but I bring a Purgation squad and 2 OMI's with Psycannons for this. A half strike squad with 2 Psycannons and an OMI, plus a Purgation Sqaud and an OMI, Plus an allied Jokaro Squad with Coteaz (codex inquisition) is plenty of Skyfire in most cases. Killed 6 out of 9 Necron flyers one game with that, and regualrly take out a flyer a turn with them. I know its alot of points in those units, but they are also really damaging against ground targets. 

I confess, I have no idea how you are Raider Rushing in 6th edition. Do they hate melta/gauss/railgun or something? Without seeing their lists or knowing how they play, I'm utterly mystified as to how your Raiders aren't scrap Turn 2/3. 

 

I really advocate using a Bastion with GK. A Purgation Squad in a bastion in the middle of the field with an OMI is in most every list I run becasue of the blistering fire it puts out. It can dominate the center pretty well, specially when there are 2-3 objectives within range that they can fire onto. 

Yeah I think the combo is good, but its not for every list. I'm a bit concerned the enemy just blows up the Bastions and then you're Helturkey/Riptide bait. Against more melee opponents though, that is pretty nasty, they're gonna eat a lot of firepower before they can get to grips with you. Might try this out against my Nid opponents sometime. 

 

 

I think RDs talking about using Skies of Fury (or whatever the nerfed verion is called now), where we can DS from the Raven while it flies.

 

Throne no. I pretend that rule doesn't exist. I'd never willingly use it, it's dumb as hell. 

 

RD, I have to ask: what is your table like if your enemy can Line of Sight you on turn 1?

 

Sounds like you need more LoS blocking terrain!

 

SJ 

Ironically we play on pretty terrain heavy maps. Flyers, Riptides jumping on top of or around stuff, Oblits etc in high sniping positions (combined with cover save nerfs and the new Focus Fire rules)...I have to get up the table fast or I get murdered. And like I said, no one has forgotten to bring meltaguns, they still kill my infantry and DK just fine, so even if I was tempted to bring a Raider, it'd get nuked fairly quickly most matchups. There is more plasma of course, but people still bring anti-tank. 

 

That is another good point to throw out here. LoS blockers are really good for GK and marine armies in general.  I think this gives a good general a chance to mitigate a ranged firepower issue.  The most powerful shooting units Tau have for example are Broadsides.  Riptides can do alot but point for point Broadsides lay down alot more firepower.  That said, they are relatively static and with good terrain can be out manuvered in many cases or atleast prevented from wrecking your whole army.  (Yes I know about Smart Missiles, undoubtedly some internet genius would have pointed out how they don't need LOS but you get the idea of limiting their firepower)

 

Even just one good center line of sight blocker can drastically change how the game goes as it can allow you to divide enemy firepower. 

The thing is though, Riptides, Vendettas, Helturkeys etc (not to mention Fire Prisms and the like) can move to where they do have good sight lanes, then just force you to either brave the killing fields or advance slower through other means. Doesn't matter how covered the board is, once objectives go down, obvious killzones and chokepoints will emerge. This is like 4th edition basics guys, LoS blocking was maybe a thing back when Target Priority also made shooting weaker, but these days you're flat-out getting cover for your units. 

 

I'm not being willfully pessimistic, but I do feel it's worth pointing out that if your opponents aren't bringing melta/don't understand how shooting works in 40k, that's not a vindication of flawed ideas. Land Raiders haven't been good since 5th, mainly due to IG but also the general proliferation of cost-effective anti-tank (and now HP in 6th). This thread is about being constructive, so I will offer some suggestions;

 

- Henchmen Mech: It's cheap, it gives you a bunch of scoring micro-units the enemy have to waste firepower on eventually, and it shores up your board presence (especially for Reserve-heavy lists). I'm still experimenting with it. I'm still on the fence about whether to go aggressive gunboats with psybolt and twin-AC, or play it safe with las/plas Razors. 

- Allies: IG offer a whole swathe of units and combos to plug gaps in our forces (but be aware of how they and Henchmen differ). We're AoC with most xenos, so that's good too if you don't mind heresy. Red Hunters are interesting, still haven't figured out everything you can do with them yet (Terminator Libby is a good place to start, as are Centurions with free Skyfire). 

- Primary something else, bring Knights to plug gaps: Been considering this more and more. It does basically mean you can't take Henchmen, but this is good for the anti-Coteaz crowd, as our version of him is inferior unless it's a Knights primary detachment. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Throne no. I pretend that rule doesn't exist. I'd never willingly use it, it's dumb as hell.

So, you hover the Stormraven to unload, where it can then be shot down with impunity. :/

I'd rather have them on board, than waste 200+ points on a delivery method that;

1) Isn't goiing to survive the Delivery

2) Takes 2+ Turns to deliver, which also removes the units ability to deal damage in those turns

We're small enough that we need to attack with everything we have, every turn possible.

You say footslogging is death? I'd rather attach a Liber Heresius Inquisitor to a TDA blob and try to Scout them. Deploying them on the edge of your DZ gives you a potential to have them start 30" in board, before the first turn.

Coteaz is letting you go first, right?

I'm still experimenting with it. I'm still on the fence about whether to go aggressive gunboats with psybolt and twin-AC, or play it safe with las/plas Razors.

Cheap Heavy Bolters (with Ammo) or Expensive Psycannons. No other option is worth it.

Primary something else, bring Knights to plug gaps: Been considering this more and more.

Yeah, this has been my viewpoint since the release of 6th.

GK feel like the best use of them are as Allies.

Sad really.

[IK Viper]

Darius, you are coming off very hostile.  I do not appriciate how you are assuming that I play in an odd/ anti-tank free meta simple becasue I run land raiders.  Usually the AT threats in an army can be broken down into 3 forms.  1. Melee (Melta Bombs, Smash Attacks, etc.)  2. Short range anti-tank  and 3. Long Range Anti-tank

 

Usually most lists have very few type 3 weapons,  they are my first target and generally I can kill or limit them.  type 2 and 1 can be mitigated with Warp Quake and the CC oriented units inside alot of the time.  Not saying it is a perfect plan, I am simply stating what I have been doing and having success with.  I am sure you have other experiences and some great advise but I really have no desire to continue to contribute to this discussion when you basically attack my ideas as "well you must play in a dumb meta, that will never work." 

 

I trust AV 14 much more than I do an AV 12 flyer.  And even if I did not, when a Raider gets killed the people inside don't take a S10 AP 2 hit. Loosing a loaded raven can cost 400 - 500 points some times if your using it to transport PAGK.  I generally end up losing my first turn of shooting with ravens anyway becasue I Jink Intereceptor fire from Icarus Cannons, (take my chances with the quad gun)  So to me the Raider is a more reliable option. besides they only need to live 2 turns to acomplish what I need them for. 

 

It is my opinion that most armies have way more Anti-Flyer and anti-AV 12 units then Anti-AV 14 options so I like the raiders for that reason.  This is probably becasue I see lots of Vendettas, Night Scythes and Helldrakes.  all of which have limited to no effect on a Raider but are a real threat to a Stormraven.   Also if Raiders live into the late game you have some place for your PAGK to hide against Vector Strikes and Baal Flamers, and can help transport units to new locations/ block LoS shielding trops from enemy fire.

 

With regard to the usefulness of LoS blocking terrain, yes there are alot of units that are fast enough to move around them, but would you not agree that that is atleast better then these same gun platforms being able to remain tucked away in their backfield and deliver more shots at range becasue they only move enough to get their jink saves? GK are a short ranged army, how can limiting other armies ability to shoot us from outside our range ever be a bad thing?   The GK's worst match-ups are against long range shooting armies, LoS helps mitigate this to some degree. aka it helps us.

[Gentlemanloser]

Codex: Inquisition, DCA Warband, Dedicated LR, Liber Heresius for Scout?

 

(Sure, you can't Assault after Scout, so maybe fill it with a Shooty Warband...)

[IK Viper]

Well I think that you can still use a CC unit b/c if you go 2nd you can assault, and at the very least you can move a Redeemer into their lines on turn 1 if you go first. . . Just be very aware of what can punch your LR to death...  Henchman CC unts are really cheap for the amount of killy they have.