Constructive Self Evaluation

[Reclusiarch Darius]

So, you hover the Stormraven to unload, where it can then be shot down with impunity. :/

I'd rather have them on board, than waste 200+ points on a delivery method that;

1) Isn't goiing to survive the Delivery

2) Takes 2+ Turns to deliver, which also removes the units ability to deal damage in those turns

We're small enough that we need to attack with everything we have, every turn possible.

You say footslogging is death? I'd rather attach a Liber Heresius Inquisitor to a TDA blob and try to Scout them. Deploying them on the edge of your DZ gives you a potential to have them start 30" in board, before the first turn.

Coteaz is letting you go first, right?

The Raven either dies Turn 2 when it arrives to broken Interceptor (hi Tau), or it dies in the enemy Turn 3 whilst in Hover mode. However, if it dies Turn 3 after delivering a unit into melee safely, I'm perfectly happy. I also got a turn of shooting out of it that wasn't Snapfire (on Turn 2 you're going flat out so you have to Snap Fire). (shrug) AV12 is AV12 dude, I don't need it to live past bottom of Turn 3. It only needs to do its job, getting Purifiers or Henchmen into melee. Everything past that is a happy bonus.

Your units aren't doing damage Turn 1, unless the enemy is a moron and you deployed without contest on the maximum edge towards the enemy, and they didn't kill anything Turn 1. At best, you'll be 24" from the enemy Turn 2, and that's if they don't move or advance towards you. So, I'm quite happy to surrender some momentum which I was never going to get, whilst getting a solid punch to the enemy's face Turn 3 from which they're unlikely to recover. As I mentioned before, Turn 1 is mostly the domain of long range units, everything else advances or re positions. Even Turn 2, only really aggressive lists are going to commit to taking objectives that early, most people wait till Turn 3 to show their hand about where they'll focus their efforts.

Your opponent can bring servo-skulls himself to stop Scout. If you wanna footslog Terminators or Purifiers, take a GM and Outflank them. People already know how to counter White Scar lists (for the month they were viable), Scouting Terminators they can and will counter. In fact that's what old Shrike used to do.

Coteaz is more reliable than Vect at getting Seize (or denying Seize), but he's still failed me sometimes. Never rely on getting first turn.

Cheap Heavy Bolters (with Ammo) or Expensive Psycannons. No other option is worth it.

The thing is though, whilst those options rip up infantry very well, they don't work as well against MC's or AV12+. Granted they can still chip away HP/wounds or in the case of psycannons Rend, but it's chancy all the same. I'm going to try out las/plas, it does nasty things to Riptides and other annoying MC's (my local Nid players have all got Exorcrines now, sigh). Might end up going a mix of each.

Darius, you are coming off very hostile. I do not appriciate how you are assuming that I play in an odd/ anti-tank free meta simple becasue I run land raiders. Usually the AT threats in an army can be broken down into 3 forms. 1. Melee (Melta Bombs, Smash Attacks, etc.) 2. Short range anti-tank and 3. Long Range Anti-tank

It's a pretty logical assumption. Melta was designed by GW to solve the problem of heavy AV in the game. I'm surprised no one has bothered to do so locally, as it's an obvious hard counter to exactly the list you run.

Melee is slightly more viable a threat in 6th, but I'd still say I've lost more vehicles to ranged attacks. Melee anti-tank is generally limited to stuff like Scarabs, or obvious powerhouses like MC's (who wreck your infantry in melee as well). You still see people taking meltabombs on Sarges and such, but it's not something I'd worry about as much as stuff like gauss, railguns, Lance, melta etc.

Usually most lists have very few type 3 weapons, they are my first target and generally I can kill or limit them. type 2 and 1 can be mitigated with Warp Quake and the CC oriented units inside alot of the time. Not saying it is a perfect plan, I am simply stating what I have been doing and having success with. I am sure you have other experiences and some great advise but I really have no desire to continue to contribute to this discussion when you basically attack my ideas as "well you must play in a dumb meta, that will never work."

That's your prerogative. I'm not forcing you to reply, I'm pointing out your Raider Rush list is a throwback to 4th and it's not something others should really do in 6th. As I mentioned, I'm truly confused as to how no one takes melta, lance etc in their lists to counter you.

Look, if you're having success, I'm not raining on your parade by any means. I wish Land Raiders were viable. But its like a Tau player saying he wins a lot of matches playing a melee list locally with a lot of upgraded Kroot units, no battlesuit units, and Vespid as his backup plan. Yeah it works (for whatever reason), but it's not something you should be advocating to others as a viable strategy. The hard counters are extremely obvious in both cases.

I trust AV 14 much more than I do an AV 12 flyer. And even if I did not, when a Raider gets killed the people inside don't take a S10 AP 2 hit. Loosing a loaded raven can cost 400 - 500 points some times if your using it to transport PAGK. I generally end up losing my first turn of shooting with ravens anyway becasue I Jink Intereceptor fire from Icarus Cannons, (take my chances with the quad gun) So to me the Raider is a more reliable option. besides they only need to live 2 turns to acomplish what I need them for.

No, but losing either transport is the same result largely; the unit inside is now stranded halfway to their objective and/or dead. I'd always Jink the turn you come on, quad guns are probably more of a threat due to being able to chew through all your HP with good dice (the Icarus needs pretty hot rolls to one-shot you).

If you're getting Turn 2 charges with Land Raiders, I'm truly confused. You deploy on the maximum forward edge, Turn 1 you trundle 12", Turn 2 its another 6", 6" disembark, ~7" charge...if they stayed still I suppose it works, but still.

It is my opinion that most armies have way more Anti-Flyer and anti-AV 12 units then Anti-AV 14 options so I like the raiders for that reason. This is probably becasue I see lots of Vendettas, Night Scythes and Helldrakes. all of which have limited to no effect on a Raider but are a real threat to a Stormraven. Also if Raiders live into the late game you have some place for your PAGK to hide against Vector Strikes and Baal Flamers, and can help transport units to new locations/ block LoS shielding trops from enemy fire.

Well yeah Heldrakes don't do jack to Raiders, but CSM don't mind that, that's why they bring melta on their infantry squads and Oblits.

Vendettas do need 5's to ping you, but they get three re-rollable shots per Flyer, I've seen two Vendettas murder a Raider before. You're forgetting also that Vendettas almost always deliver Melta Vets or Melta Demo weapon teams as cargo, which add even more heavy AV hate to the mix and can kill you alone with good rolls.

Night Scythes still have gauss, granted they need 6's (so even less likely than the Vendettas), but they're still getting four re-rollable shots, so like the Vendetta they'll concentrate fire. More likely though you'll lose the LR to a pack of Annihilation Barges, they pump out absurd amounts of gauss.

Yeah the meta is shifting to plasma and autocannon type weapons for the reason you mentioned, but people still bring melta. It's a reliable way to kill problem vehicles, and it still kills Terminators and puts wounds on MC's (maybe less efficiently than plasma, but unlike plasma you can still usually charge after using meltaguns). Combined with HP (which means S8 and S9 can still ding you down with HP loss), not to mention things like Scarabs or Screamers with silly anti-tank melee rules, it's IMO not a good idea to bring expensive heavy AV. Blood Angels and Necrons can spam AV13 more cheaply and have distinct advantages inherent (BA gotta go fast, Necrons get Living Metal and gauss weaponry). LR's are big expensive bricks that start the game with a big target on them, and you're generally bringing at best 2 or 3.

With regard to the usefulness of LoS blocking terrain, yes there are alot of units that are fast enough to move around them, but would you not agree that that is atleast better then these same gun platforms being able to remain tucked away in their backfield and deliver more shots at range becasue they only move enough to get their jink saves? GK are a short ranged army, how can limiting other armies ability to shoot us from outside our range ever be a bad thing? The GK's worst match-ups are against long range shooting armies, LoS helps mitigate this to some degree. aka it helps us.

Because whilst we cower in the mid-field, getting slowly picked apart, we're wasting our melee and close-range advantages ie being able to move, shoot and charge all the same turn (all our weaponry is Assault, we have AP3 melee by default on everyone plus S5 on a psychic test, plus force weapons). Necrons, Tau, Eldar and IG can do the mid to long range shooting game way better than we can, we'll lose in a straight shootout as we lack the staying power.

I'm not saying don't try to block LoS, by all means do, but the longer you wait to commit to swamping the enemy in their DZ, the longer you give them to reposition and whittle your army down. Marine players have turned to Ravens and drop pod lists in 6th, because GW nerfed Biker lists with the Inquisition codex and they're out of options too. This is Marine hate edition, it's never been harder to do the 4th edition mentality of sit in the mid-field with Tacticals and out-attrition the enemy. Sadly we're still largely based on that flawed template (we're Tactical Spam Mk2 in many ways), but we still have fast units and deployment options to get us up the field. None of them are cheap or foolproof, but it beats counting turns while the enemy Riptide or Heldrake deletes your units one by one.

Codex: Inquisition, DCA Warband, Dedicated LR, Liber Heresius for Scout?

(Sure, you can't Assault after Scout, so maybe fill it with a Shooty Warband...)

GW have decided you can't forge the narrative if you charge Turn 1, so they've expressly forbidden it. If you go second you can charge though, thought I'd say it's an outside chance anything will be in range.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Scouting Terminators they can and will counter. In fact that's what old Shrike used to do.

 

Infiltrating Terminators. ;)  A step up from a Scout Move! :P

 

 

The thing is though, whilst those options rip up infantry very well, they don't work as well against MC's or AV12+. Granted they can still chip away HP/wounds or in the case of psycannons Rend, but it's chancy all the same. I'm going to try out las/plas, it does nasty things to Riptides and other annoying MC's (my local Nid players have all got Exorcrines now, sigh). Might end up going a mix of each.

 

The old Mathhammer of ACs being better than Lascanons for AV14 still hold.  In fact it's better for us as out ACs are +1S.

 

When you have access to Psycannons, there is little (to no) reason to ever choose a Lascannon over one.  The Range really being the only thing of note.

 

I'm also sure the Mathhammer for light AV (10-12) favours our S6 Heavy Bolters over Lascannons as well.

 

 

Melee is slightly more viable a threat in 6th

 

I dropped my LRs the moment Flying Daemon Princes became a thing back with the first Daemon Codex (the Chaos Marine ones weren't so good), and they would just fly up to my LR and MC punch it out.

 

The only time since I've considered a LR is with the new Dangles, a LRC, a Bolter Pole and a PFG.

 

Then GW nerfed that.

 

My LR's are firmly back in my box, and staying there.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Infiltrating Terminators. A step up from a Scout Move!

Ah true. Still gets stopped by servo-skulls sadly. Poor Shrike.

The old Mathhammer of ACs being better than Lascanons for AV14 still hold. In fact it's better for us as out ACs are +1S.

When you have access to Psycannons, there is little (to no) reason to ever choose a Lascannon over one. The Range really being the only thing of note.

I'm also sure the Mathhammer for light AV (10-12) favours our S6 Heavy Bolters over Lascannons as well.

Range is precisely my point. We lack it. Given PsyDreads are really suffering these days, perhaps Henchmen Mech offers a cheap way to get long-range AP2 into our list that is multi-purpose (plasma servitors I love, but they generally only kill infantry, not monsters or vehicles). Having cheap 48" gun platforms is a big deal, and we can disperse the firepower across multiple hulls (instead of just 2 x AV12 walkers). Plus they're scoring and fill mandatory Troops handily. As I said though, still on the fence. More testing needed.

I dropped my LRs the moment Flying Daemon Princes became a thing back with the first Daemon Codex (the Chaos Marine ones weren't so good), and they would just fly up to my LR and MC punch it out.

The only time since I've considered a LR is with the new Dangles, a LRC, a Bolter Pole and a PFG.

Then GW nerfed that.

My LR's are firmly back in my box, and staying there.

One day man, one day...maybe 7th will get rid of HP.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nah, HP were needed.  The stupidity of glancing a rhino multiple times a turn, every turn of the game, and doing nothing to it, was absurd.

 

But the nerf was a little too much.  Vehicles are too easily killed by HP glances now.

 

TLLC/LC-TLPG are 80 points.  5 points cheaper than the Psycannon version.  Yet almost twice the cost of the Heavy Bolter-back, which has 36" Range.

 

I'm not sure that an extra 30 points is worth 1 shot at 48", over 3 at 36.  Even with the increased S/AP.

 

If they were cheaper, sure.  From the look of things, our razors will increase in cost anyway come a new Dex (well base cost, the overall cost will probably stay the same) which would make the upgraded weapon options much more attractive over the standard H Bolter.

 

But as it stands, it would seem to be S6 Heavy Bolter all the way.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Nah, HP were needed.  The stupidity of glancing a rhino multiple times a turn, every turn of the game, and doing nothing to it, was absurd.

 

But the nerf was a little too much.  Vehicles are too easily killed by HP glances now.

No I thought it was fine. Because multiple weapon destroyed/immobilise stacked, and could still kill the vehicle. Shaken/stunned not stacking was fine. In all honesty I see point to HP. It was an overreaction to a problem the players had already solved (Mech IG was on the way out when 6th edition dropped anyway). 

 

TLLC/LC-TLPG are 80 points.  5 points cheaper than the Psycannon version.  Yet almost twice the cost of the Heavy Bolter-back, which has 36" Range.

 

I'm not sure that an extra 30 points is worth 1 shot at 48", over 3 at 36.  Even with the increased S/AP.

Oh no, don't take the twin-las, it's worse than the twin psycannon or twin heavy bolter, no question. My point is though, early game, you want 48" shooting. Later on, you want multiple shots at high Strength, and the las/plas Razor delivers, with twin-link and AP2 no less. It is an increased cost, but when something can almost kill an MC or enemy transport by itself, I'm okay with that. They're still as cheap as IG Mech (which at best is 100 points for bare-bones Infantry squad+Chimera, nevermind if they take Veterans). 

 

If they were cheaper, sure.  From the look of things, our razors will increase in cost anyway come a new Dex (well base cost, the overall cost will probably stay the same) which would make the upgraded weapon options much more attractive over the standard H Bolter.

 

But as it stands, it would seem to be S6 Heavy Bolter all the way.

But anti-infantry we have in spades. It's AP2 and long-range we lack. 

[Gentlemanloser]

True, but really, even keeping them at 48" range to begin with, do you expect your Razors to live into end game to be useful at 12" (you'll want Rapid Fire range for the TLPG)?  Sure, the same arguement can be made against the Psycannon varient.

 

 

It was an overreaction to a problem the players had already solved

 

Falcons were the suck.  2d6 onthe damage table, take lowest.  Oh it's just shaken again.  And again.  And again.  Oh, they've last turn star engined to claim/contest/tank shock you off that objective.

 

/bleh

 

Now, you can glance them to death (and no one takes them becuase Serpents got Ubered!  Standard GW edition Flip-Flop at it's finest!).

 

But, there were ways we could have had both worlds.

 

Something like no rolls on the damage table until all HPs are taken off.  Glances take off 1 (and give a minus to the damage table roll when all HP gone).  Pens take off 2 HP (and give a bonus to the damage table roll when all HP gone).

 

Melta doesn't give 'armour bane' (that remains seperate), but allows you to roll on the damage table without having to have removed all HPs first.

 

Something like that.

[AnImA8]

I tend to find IK Viper's meta to be very similar to mine: anti-flyer galor, but a distinct lack of melta (or at least enough of a lack, that it's easy for me to prioritize them down).

 

As if this wasn't enough to put the LR above the SR in my book, I can tell you from a LOT of experience running squads in SR's (since the beginning of 6th) that it's simply not worth it. The loss of the SR + squad is FAR and away more significant than having the LR blow up and a scattering of S4 hits go off. I can't begin to tell you how many frustrating games I've lost because my SR couldn't take out my friends Helldrake in time, and got vector struck with all the contents going down with it.

That being said I've developed a very different playstyle from y'all it seems. For starters I cannot get enough of psyflemen. For a while the possibility of taking Dreadknights over them was alluring, but just not really feasible because I'd be losing early to amassed, long-ranged AP 2-3 (it's why I also don't rely on Terminators as my sole troop option). Then as time went on, even 2 psyflemen wasn't enough to satisfy my appetite for long-ranged firepower, so now I use 3 Dreadnoughts in almost every list I run.

Interestingly enough too, I never seem to have enough anti-infantry. I run 10 Termies with 20 Strikes all with Psyammo and Psycannons, and I find that my opponents are either too tough (Plague Marines or Wraithguard), or that their AP2-3 weapons put me on too fast of a clock to whittle them away with Oceans of Dice (Tau, Noise Marines, DL-spam Dark Eldar, etc.).

Since I play almost exclusively Knights (no henchmen, only ever one Inquisitor), my constructive advice will be skewed, but I earnestly believe we have to win in a combined shooting/assault. Put in enough shooting to reduce the enemy's mobility, and then get them into combat. If you rely solely on shooting I don't think we actually have the kind of firepower to do anything more than tie (take with a grain of salt though because I literally NEVER rend with my psycannons). And relying solely on our assault prowess, given the changes to vehicles in 6th, will just allow the enemy to kite you all game. You have to set up your plays just right.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

True, but really, even keeping them at 48" range to begin with, do you expect your Razors to live into end game to be useful at 12" (you'll want Rapid Fire range for the TLPG)?  Sure, the same arguement can be made against the Psycannon varient.

No, but the thing is, they're so cheap, if the enemy actually bother killing them off, it'll take them at least three turns of shooting. Thats three turns they're not killing Knights, DK's or anything else you bring to the list. I mean you ideally want to get into rapid-fire range for the maximum firepower output, but it's still a good little gunboat at 24" with two high Strength AP2 shots (one being twin-linked). Considering how cheap they are, I really don't care if they die. 

 

Falcons were the suck.  2d6 onthe damage table, take lowest.  Oh it's just shaken again.  And again.  And again.  Oh, they've last turn star engined to claim/contest/tank shock you off that objective.

That's because holofields were broken, not because core vehicle rules were. Strawman ;) . I hated Harlie Circus too, but it wasn't that long-lived and if they'd just toned down holofields (maybe just give the tank a strong cover save, not an absurd 'I'm immune to damage' field), Falcons would've been fine. HP are a total overreaction. 

 

Something like no rolls on the damage table until all HPs are taken off.  Glances take off 1 (and give a minus to the damage table roll when all HP gone).  Pens take off 2 HP (and give a bonus to the damage table roll when all HP gone).

That doesn't fix anything. A simpler way would be to return to 5th edition rules, which were easy to understand, but keep the current +1 for AP2 and +2 for AP1 bonuses to the damage roll. Therefore, true anti-tank works as intended (and plasma remains competitive with melta), whilst stupid spammy S6/7 needs hot dice, not multiple hits, to kill. Disable is fine, but what is really stupid under 6th edition is how 3 glances = dead. The old table meant multiple glances could strip weapons or immobilise, but you'd need repeated such results to kill. 

 

Melta doesn't give 'armour bane' (that remains seperate), but allows you to roll on the damage table without having to have removed all HPs first.

No need. Melta functions just fine as is IMO. It's a high risk high reward weapon type; you have to get in close, but if you do your odds of one-shotting the enemy tank are very good. 

 

As if this wasn't enough to put the LR above the SR in my book, I can tell you from a LOT of experience running squads in SR's (since the beginning of 6th) that it's simply not worth it. The loss of the SR + squad is FAR and away more significant than having the LR blow up and a scattering of S4 hits go off. I can't begin to tell you how many frustrating games I've lost because my SR couldn't take out my friends Helldrake in time, and got vector struck with all the contents going down with it.

Then drop off the passengers before the Raven gets taken out? 

 

That being said I've developed a very different playstyle from y'all it seems. For starters I cannot get enough of psyflemen. For a while the possibility of taking Dreadknights over them was alluring, but just not really feasible because I'd be losing early to amassed, long-ranged AP 2-3 (it's why I also don't rely on Terminators as my sole troop option). Then as time went on, even 2 psyflemen wasn't enough to satisfy my appetite for long-ranged firepower, so now I use 3 Dreadnoughts in almost every list I run.

The exact same firepower wipes PsyDreads out too, in fact DK's are still better in that context because you can move into melee quickly and tie up/kill such problems. Not to mention AP3 shouldn't be an issue for DK's, they have 2+ armour (whereas krak rockets, battle cannons etc are still a problem for PsyDreads). YMMV, but I think you need to give DK's another go. They are about twice as expensive though. 

 

Interestingly enough too, I never seem to have enough anti-infantry. I run 10 Termies with 20 Strikes all with Psyammo and Psycannons, and I find that my opponents are either too tough (Plague Marines or Wraithguard), or that their AP2-3 weapons put me on too fast of a clock to whittle them away with Oceans of Dice (Tau, Noise Marines, DL-spam Dark Eldar, etc.).

Get plasma cannon servitors ASAP. They deal with those annoyances very well, plus they're dirt cheap. 

 

Since I play almost exclusively Knights (no henchmen, only ever one Inquisitor), my constructive advice will be skewed, but I earnestly believe we have to win in a combined shooting/assault. Put in enough shooting to reduce the enemy's mobility, and then get them into combat. If you rely solely on shooting I don't think we actually have the kind of firepower to do anything more than tie (take with a grain of salt though because I literally NEVER rend with my psycannons). And relying solely on our assault prowess, given the changes to vehicles in 6th, will just allow the enemy to kite you all game. You have to set up your plays just right.

Man, pure Knights, good luck with that. It's such a skill-based army, because every loss hurts, and you cannot afford to lose units early without getting sufficient work out of them. 

 

Given that's your playstyle, perhaps you should look at taking Interceptors. 

[Gentlemanloser]

That's because holofields were broken, not because core vehicle rules were. Strawman
. I hated Harlie Circus too, but it wasn't that long-lived and if
they'd just toned down holofields (maybe just give the tank a strong
cover save, not an absurd 'I'm immune to damage' field), Falcons
would've been fine. HP are a total overreaction.

Not really. The interaction of Holofield and Glance rules were broken. Falcons still have holo, and they're crap. Nothing changed with Holo, but glances changed.

The same with Fortitude and our vehicles. My dreads used to laugh at my opponents. Og you glanced me 8 times and I can't shoot next turn? FORTITUDE! *bamph*.

Now they suck.

Time and again I threw shot after shot at enemy rhinos and razors, and shook/stun them all game and did *nothing* else to them. Didn't blow them up, didn't stop them blocking LoS/Assault. Didn't stop them claiming/contest/tank shocking.

For a 35 point vehicle.

It was ridiculous. Something had to change.

Then drop off the passengers before the Raven gets taken out?

You go second, or fluff the reserve roll, and have to come on Zooming. So no hover to drop off (you can still Skies them of course) Then the gamble is to shoot down the Drake in a turn, or get Vector'd and potentially lose the Raven and it's contents.

[IK Viper]

If you are dropping Strike marines out of the Ravens without hovering, unless you have a Locator, you might as well DS them in the first place.  3 Servo Skulls will make DS a pretty reliable option across the whole board.  I agree that you are coutingalot on your Reserve rolls and risking alot by putting PAGK in Ravens.  If the Raven is late, or gets intercepted your playing 400-500 points down and GK cannot afford that right now... I  like the assurance that my Strikes are on the field in a Raider, or DS in on their own and will be exposed to 1 turn of fire before assaulting.  All that being said, I am very hesitant to DS Strikes much these days due to Tau Ion Riptide Interceptor.  One direct hit and your looking at loosing basically a whole sqaud before it gets to do anything...  Rhinos and Raiders help you overcome this problem by allowing you you spread out in the movement phase. 

 

PS if GK had drop pods we would instantly be terrifying LOL.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think we should also mention a Raven starting on board on a Skyshield.

 

It has a 4++ save if you don't go first, can move and then units inside can assault on the turn they disembark.

 

You can even (if you don't want Centurion in a SM Raven doing this) stick a C:I Inquisitor with a shooty Warband into a Valkyrie, and Scout it with the Liber Heresius.

 

Yeah, I like finding these little ways to, put the rules under pressure. ;)

[boreas]

Can the Raven start on the board? I thought all flyer, including the ones that can hover, had to be kept in reserves?

[Gentlemanloser]

Stronghold Assault gives a 5 point upgrade option to the Skyshield that allows a single Flier to start on board, on it in Hover mode.  It can't zoom turn one.

 

If you have multiple detachments, and can purchase multiple Skyshields, you have have one flier for every Skyshield you have upgraded start on board turn 1.

 

Broken?  Hell yeah!

[AnImA8]

As if this wasn't enough to put the LR above the SR in my book, I can tell you from a LOT of experience running squads in SR's (since the beginning of 6th) that it's simply not worth it. The loss of the SR + squad is FAR and away more significant than having the LR blow up and a scattering of S4 hits go off. I can't begin to tell you how many frustrating games I've lost because my SR couldn't take out my friends Helldrake in time, and got vector struck with all the contents going down with it.

Then drop off the passengers before the Raven gets taken out?

That being said I've developed a very different playstyle from y'all it seems. For starters I cannot get enough of psyflemen. For a while the possibility of taking Dreadknights over them was alluring, but just not really feasible because I'd be losing early to amassed, long-ranged AP 2-3 (it's why I also don't rely on Terminators as my sole troop option). Then as time went on, even 2 psyflemen wasn't enough to satisfy my appetite for long-ranged firepower, so now I use 3 Dreadnoughts in almost every list I run.

The exact same firepower wipes PsyDreads out too, in fact DK's are still better in that context because you can move into melee quickly and tie up/kill such problems. Not to mention AP3 shouldn't be an issue for DK's, they have 2+ armour (whereas krak rockets, battle cannons etc are still a problem for PsyDreads). YMMV, but I think you need to give DK's another go. They are about twice as expensive though.

Interestingly enough too, I never seem to have enough anti-infantry. I run 10 Termies with 20 Strikes all with Psyammo and Psycannons, and I find that my opponents are either too tough (Plague Marines or Wraithguard), or that their AP2-3 weapons put me on too fast of a clock to whittle them away with Oceans of Dice (Tau, Noise Marines, DL-spam Dark Eldar, etc.).

Get plasma cannon servitors ASAP. They deal with those annoyances very well, plus they're dirt cheap.

Since I play almost exclusively Knights (no henchmen, only ever one Inquisitor), my constructive advice will be skewed, but I earnestly believe we have to win in a combined shooting/assault. Put in enough shooting to reduce the enemy's mobility, and then get them into combat. If you rely solely on shooting I don't think we actually have the kind of firepower to do anything more than tie (take with a grain of salt though because I literally NEVER rend with my psycannons). And relying solely on our assault prowess, given the changes to vehicles in 6th, will just allow the enemy to kite you all game. You have to set up your plays just right.

Man, pure Knights, good luck with that. It's such a skill-based army, because every loss hurts, and you cannot afford to lose units early without getting sufficient work out of them.

Given that's your playstyle, perhaps you should look at taking Interceptors.

As GL points out, the idea behind the Raven as a transport is to keep the unit safe until the Heldrakes go down. What this ends up looking like is that you have to keep the Raven moving and shooting at the Heldrake until it's time or until the Raven goes down itself. Not a guaranteed strategy but it's safer than using Rhino's or Razorbacks.

The thing with Psydreads vs Dreadknights comes down to when I can threaten the given AT units I'm speaking to. With Psydreads I have easily the first turn or two to shoot enemy targets, whereas with Dreadknights it will take at least two turns to arrive at the target (and that's realistically if I take teleporters making them significantly more expensive). Nevermind the fact that against weapons like say, Dark/Bright Lances, DK's are wounded on a 2+ and have to rely on their invulnerable versus Dreads who take HP's on a 4+ and can get a comparable cover save.

You're right that the AP3 comment doesn't apply to Dreadknights, that's more my own habit of talking about AP 2 and 3 weapons as the bane of my overall existence XD

But you're right about the Puritan playstyle, and thank you for that. But it's a lot of fun and really rewarding

You go second, or fluff the reserve roll, and have to come on Zooming. So no hover to drop off (you can still Skies them of course) Then the gamble is to shoot down the Drake in a turn, or get Vector'd and potentially lose the Raven and it's contents.

GL's got it

If you are dropping Strike marines out of the Ravens without hovering, unless you have a Locator, you might as well DS them in the first place. 3 Servo Skulls will make DS a pretty reliable option across the whole board. I agree that you are coutingalot on your Reserve rolls and risking alot by putting PAGK in Ravens. If the Raven is late, or gets intercepted your playing 400-500 points down and GK cannot afford that right now... I like the assurance that my Strikes are on the field in a Raider, or DS in on their own and will be exposed to 1 turn of fire before assaulting. All that being said, I am very hesitant to DS Strikes much these days due to Tau Ion Riptide Interceptor. One direct hit and your looking at loosing basically a whole sqaud before it gets to do anything... Rhinos and Raiders help you overcome this problem by allowing you you spread out in the movement phase.

PS if GK had drop pods we would instantly be terrifying LOL.

The scatter reliability isn't SO much a concern, as is my choice of when and where the Strikes come in. You're right that the Raven could be delayed, but in terms of the Strikes surviving that's largely seen as a good thing.

As to the Raider: I love Raiders. I thoroughly enjoyed using them, I just found that the SR in general has more utility.

Honestly, I'd love to see more of an emphasis on teleporting than Drop Pods. Like some more guaranteed way of getting our teleports off akin to Drop Pods would be really fluffy and interesting.

I think we should also mention a Raven starting on board on a Skyshield.

It has a 4++ save if you don't go first, can move and then units inside can assault on the turn they disembark.

You can even (if you don't want Centurion in a SM Raven doing this) stick a C:I Inquisitor with a shooty Warband into a Valkyrie, and Scout it with the Liber Heresius.

Yeah, I like finding these little ways to, put the rules under pressure.

The Skyshield is interesting, and would definitely make the Raven survive against armies that use Interceptor (at least for a turn or two). What I don't know about it is whether a 4+ invulnerable is worth not immediately having the 6+ to hit effect on the enemy: it just seems like the enemy could focus the Raven down with concentrated long-ranged AT, making the idea fairly moot.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Not really. The interaction of Holofield and Glance rules were broken. Falcons still have holo, and they're crap. Nothing changed with Holo, but glances changed.

The same with Fortitude and our vehicles. My dreads used to laugh at my opponents. Og you glanced me 8 times and I can't shoot next turn? FORTITUDE! *bamph*.

Now they suck.

Time and again I threw shot after shot at enemy rhinos and razors, and shook/stun them all game and did *nothing* else to them. Didn't blow them up, didn't stop them blocking LoS/Assault. Didn't stop them claiming/contest/tank shocking.

For a 40 point vehicle.

It was ridiculous. Something had to change.

Which is the entire problem. This back and forth between 'mech is OP' and 'mech is dead' is bad for the game. They could've met the problem halfway, but instead they essentially gave vehicles wounds, which is a dumb solution.

HP is retarded, it makes anything not a Fast Skimmer or a Flyer absurdly easy to murder. Glancing hits represent the vehicle getting shot but the armour or bad angle meaning the hit doesn't overly affect it, which the -2 on the table perfectly represented (ie you couldn't roll a 6 and insta-gib a tank, you needed a pen most of the time to one-shot).

I dunno what they'll do in 7th edition, but HP is bad for the game and it makes a lot of otherwise worthwhile vehicles worthless and the cornercase specialist stuff abysmal.

You go second, or fluff the reserve roll, and have to come on Zooming. So no hover to drop off (you can still Skies them of course) Then the gamble is to shoot down the Drake in a turn, or get Vector'd and potentially lose the Raven and it's contents.

(shrug) I never said it was foolproof, obviously you'd wanna put some Reserve bonus stuff in your list to get it happening reliably. I'm happy rolling a 3+ on Turn 2 though, that's not bad odds. Even coming on late can be good, if it means you arrive and clean up what your ground force already started (Turn 5 clutch objective captures can win games, I've seen biker and jetbike lists do it before).

I really don't get why people are so worried about Vector Strike. Its got poor odds of wrecking the Raven. I'm honestly more worried about Interceptor platforms with twin-link and.or lots of shots(Broadsides, or Lootaz just spamming sky-high), or enemy Flyers with good shooting (Vendettas, urgh).

If you are dropping Strike marines out of the Ravens without hovering, unless you have a Locator, you might as well DS them in the first place. 3 Servo Skulls will make DS a pretty reliable option across the whole board. I agree that you are coutingalot on your Reserve rolls and risking alot by putting PAGK in Ravens. If the Raven is late, or gets intercepted your playing 400-500 points down and GK cannot afford that right now... I like the assurance that my Strikes are on the field in a Raider, or DS in on their own and will be exposed to 1 turn of fire before assaulting. All that being said, I am very hesitant to DS Strikes much these days due to Tau Ion Riptide Interceptor. One direct hit and your looking at loosing basically a whole sqaud before it gets to do anything... Rhinos and Raiders help you overcome this problem by allowing you you spread out in the movement phase.

Which is precisely my point. Deep striking infantry is just feeding them to the enemy these days, unless you use something else to draw the Interceptor fire. Tau will try with the 3-shot mode on their Riptide, S7 AP2 can hurt a Raven on good dice, and he's probably giving it Tank Hunter via Puretide Chip. What can I say, Tau are hell lol.

I'm not transporting Strikes in a Raven, I'm landing them off it's beacon. I'd put Henchmen or Purifiers inside a Raven (if anything at all), neither can get up the field fast enough without it.

PS if GK had drop pods we would instantly be terrifying LOL.

One can dream. It wouldn't fit out style though, we're a pretty teleport-happy Chapter with Troop Terminators and stuff. GW is very unlikely to give us it. They even say in the background that the rare occasions Knights can't just teleport to the target, they use a Raven.

I think we should also mention a Raven starting on board on a Skyshield.

It has a 4++ save if you don't go first, can move and then units inside can assault on the turn they disembark.

You can even (if you don't want Centurion in a SM Raven doing this) stick a C:I Inquisitor with a shooty Warband into a Valkyrie, and Scout it with the Liber Heresius.

Yeah, I like finding these little ways to, put the rules under pressure.

Eh, I'm still pretty meh about Skyshields. I'd wanna playtest it more. Depends where you put it I guess, if its way back in a corner you'll be out of range of most anti-tank hopefully.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Which is the entire problem. This back and forth between 'mech is OP' and 'mech is dead' is bad for the game. They could've met the problem halfway, but instead they essentially gave vehicles wounds, which is a dumb solution.

 

It's not like GW to flip flop between balance. ;)  CC is OP (4th.  Kill Zones Consolidation into new Assault.  Rending on to-hit) to CC is rubbish (6th.  Random charge lengths, Challenges, AP3 Power Weapons.  Overwatch).

 

They are just unable to balance thier game.  I think this is mainly becuase they don't think they need to.  Which is shocking hubris really.

 

 

HP is retarded, it makes anything not a Fast Skimmer or a Flyer absurdly easy to murder. Glancing hits represent the vehicle getting shot but the armour or bad angle meaning the hit doesn't overly affect it, which the -2 on the table perfectly represented (ie you couldn't roll a 6 and insta-gib a tank, you needed a pen most of the time to one-shot).

 

Vehicle Damage Table is stupid.  250 point vehicle that if you roll a 6 you can instant kill.  Stupid.  Wounds (call them Hull Points if you want) is a much better system.

 

It's also congruent with the rest of the system.

 

Glances could also kill if you had things like an AP1 weapon or Tank Hunter.

 

Fliers are only bad becuase GW didn't (as they promised.  I remember the pre 6th promise that all armies would get an extensive FAQ to bring them up to 6th edition standards.) update everyone with Interceptor and Skyfire to deal with them.

 

At the start of 6th we had only the Quad gun and the IG Hydra.  Really GW?  That was bringing everyone up to par in 6th to be able to deal with Fliers?

 

No, it wasn't.  And it still isn't.

 

 

I dunno what they'll do in 7th edition, but HP is bad for the game and it makes a lot of otherwise worthwhile vehicles worthless and the cornercase specialist stuff abysmal.

 

I hope they keep HP, but either increase the amounts (like make most Super Heavy durable), and remove one shotting from Vehicles.  Or include a Vehicle level "Eternal Warrior".

 

That and rebalanced the point costs for things like Venerable, which is now crap, as your Ven dreads die to Glanced HPs before they have the option to reroll any damage results.

[AnImA8]

Balance-wise, I honestly have very few complaints about 6th. I've been thoroughly enjoying this edition, especially when compared to 5th. I think mainly we're just going through an "out-of-date" phase more than anything else. Hell lets just look at a cross-codex comparison with codices released for 6th (this will mainly be against Knights, not as much Inquisition): their units got cheaper across the board, their ability to amass high strength/low AP weapons has been improved, and their HQ choices contribute meaningfully to their armies.

 

We are an elite army, so we shouldn't get cheaper units (or at least not much cheaper), but if that's the case then our units need to be more efficient: points efficiency is really where we suffer against these newer armies.

 

The deluge of low AP weapons is a serious problem against an army that relies on whittling the enemy down over time--it puts us on a clock that is faster than we can reasonably keep up with (this contributes to the skewed nature of points efficiency I was speaking to).

 

And lastly we have very little outside of Coteaz in HQ's. OMI's with Psycannons (maybe Prescience if I have the points) have become one of my favorite units, but the effort to squeeze in as many models as humanly possible has even lead me to drop TDA and Psycannon on the guy and just run him as a 25 pt tax. Brotherhood Champions are fairly lackluster for their cost, which is sad because it's probably my favorite HQ conceptually. By extension Crowe is worthless given that much of the benefit you pay for with him is made moot by his not being an IC. Making Purifiers troops isn't a redeeming quality because they're even less points efficient than our other units atm (last I did the math, a Squad of strikes with Psycannons and Psybolt Ammo does perform better against infantry than Purifiers with 4 Psycannons). The same goes for Mordrak. Lastly, GM's really just aren't worth the points to me: as far as a combat monster goes--he's really not; other armies, like CSM's, get lords that are significantly cheaper and I would say as good if not better in combat. Grand Strategy is incredibly dope but: the scoring doesn't matter as much to me since our Purifiers and Paladins aren't as efficient as our Troops, the Scout/Outflank is interesting but I need my units on the board turn 1 to maximize their value, and the reroll 1's is great but not worth the GM cost.

 

I'd like to see a new GK's that have a really reliable way to Teleport in, and with an emphasis on strong, COOPERATIVE characters that can lead and wreck in challenges. We are the answer to the threat of Chaos after all right? Wouldn't it be fluffy to emphasize characters that go toe-to-toe with our challenge-oriented nemesis?

 

Since I don't want to get too far off track by daydreaming of a new codex--as far as Constructive Self-Evaluation goes: I'll post my thoughts in analogous form to the OP in a little bit

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's not like GW to flip flop between balance. CC is OP (4th. Kill Zones Consolidation into new Assault. Rending on to-hit) to CC is rubbish (6th. Random charge lengths, Challenges, AP3 Power Weapons. Overwatch).

They are just unable to balance thier game. I think this is mainly becuase they don't think they need to. Which is shocking hubris really.

5th edition was alright. Like yeah, mech was unbalanced to begin with, but I think by the time we got updated, people had figured out counters and mech had settled into being a solid but still beatable army (as evidenced by Leafblower no longer placing in tourneys). Falcons were annoying, but eh, Eldar always get tricks.

6th edition is such a mess. They ported in way too much Fantasy ideas without properly thinking about it, and as a result we have all kinds of stupid interactions 40k was never meant to have.

Vehicle Damage Table is stupid. 250 point vehicle that if you roll a 6 you can instant kill. Stupid. Wounds (call them Hull Points if you want) is a much better system.

No that's fine, because 6's are rare. Also, you forget that you need several good rolls to kill a tank. First you need to hit, then you need to beat AV (pens kill, or at least they used to). Then you need a 5+, less if you have AP2 or AP1. The odds of a single lascannon wrecking your Land Raider are low.

Glances could also kill if you had things like an AP1 weapon or Tank Hunter.

Which is fine, because again, such things are still rare even now. It's just that because 3-4 HP gone = kill, having true anti-tank matters less now.

Fliers are only bad becuase GW didn't (as they promised. I remember the pre 6th promise that all armies would get an extensive FAQ to bring them up to 6th edition standards.) update everyone with Interceptor and Skyfire to deal with them.

At the start of 6th we had only the Quad gun and the IG Hydra. Really GW? That was bringing everyone up to par in 6th to be able to deal with Fliers?

No, it wasn't. And it still isn't.

Allies ;) GW wants to buy more minis, even if they aren't from your codex.

I hope they keep HP, but either increase the amounts (like make most Super Heavy durable), and remove one shotting from Vehicles. Or include a Vehicle level "Eternal Warrior".

That and rebalanced the point costs for things like Venerable, which is now crap, as your Ven dreads die to Glanced HPs before they have the option to reroll any damage results.

I'd re-work it as thus;

Damage chart results:

1) Shaken: Vehicle can't shoot at all (can't even Snap Fire), but can still move. Passengers can still fire normally

2) Stunned: Vehicle can't shoot or move at all. Passengers can still fire normally, but cannot disembark

3) Weapon Destroyed: Vehicle loses a weapon, chosen by controlling player. Lose a Hull Point. If you roll this result whilst the vehicle has no weapons left, the vehicle is destroyed (as per 5).

4) Immobilise: Vehicle cannot move for the rest of the game. Lose a Hull Point. Passengers can still fire normally but cannot disembark

5) Destroyed: Vehicle is destroyed. Passengers take 2D6 S4 hits. Vehicle becomes difficult and dangerous terrain.

6) Explodes: Vehicle is destroyed. Passengers take 2D6 S4 hits. All other models within 12" suffer a S3 hit. Place a crater that is difficult terrain where the model was. Remove the model.

Glance: -2 on the damage chart roll.

Penetrating: Normal roll, removes a Hull Point automatically.

[Gentlemanloser]

No that's fine, because 6's are rare. Also, you forget that you need several good rolls to kill a tank. First you need to hit, then you need to beat AV (pens kill, or at least they used to). Then you need a 5+, less if you have AP2 or AP1. The odds of a single lascannon wrecking your Land Raider are low.

You need serval rolls to kill anything. To-hit, To-wound, Fail save.

That 6 is for explode. You can wreck on a 5. And it gets lower with Tank Hunter and AP1/2. And Pen hits (in older editions). Wrecks aren't rare.

The odds of a single Lascannon removing a multiwound ET creature are zero. 'Low' (as subjective as that is) is far too high when compared to zero.

I'd re-work it as thus;

Damage chart results:

1) Shaken: Vehicle can't shoot at all (can't even Snap Fire), but can still move. Passengers can still fire normally

2) Stunned: Vehicle can't shoot or move at all. Passengers can still fire normally, but cannot disembark

3) Weapon Destroyed: Vehicle loses a weapon, chosen by controlling player. Lose a Hull Point. If you roll this result whilst the vehicle has no weapons left, the vehicle is destroyed (as per 5).

4) Immobilise: Vehicle cannot move for the rest of the game. Lose a Hull Point. Passengers can still fire normally but cannot disembark

5) Destroyed: Vehicle is destroyed. Passengers take 2D6 S4 hits. Vehicle becomes difficult and dangerous terrain.

6) Explodes: Vehicle is destroyed. Passengers take 2D6 S4 hits. All other models within 12" suffer a S3 hit. Place a crater that is difficult terrain where the model was. Remove the model.

Glance: -2 on the damage chart roll.

Penetrating: Normal roll, removes a Hull Point automatically.

I don't see this changing much. You can continue to glance a vehicle all game, and at best Immobilise it. You can still one shot a vehicle with a good roll.

All this does is allow you to kill it after a number of penetrating hits equal to its Hull Points, regardless of your damage chart rolls.

Edit;

Without Hull Points on Glances, what would be needed is that Glance damage table results 'stack'.

So 6 (or however many) Glances that shake (applied in the same shooting phase maybe) would stack up to wreck.

[AnImA8]

In response to the OP, I'll just briefly mention the points of theirs that I agree with and expand primarily on where I'm adding.

1. Strengths:

• Psybolt Ammunition: as IK Viper says, we're good at forcing saves.
• AP4 and Rending: I don't see this as a strength since AP4- is fairly easy to come by for other armies, and Rending is more a way for our weapons to be effective in a last-ditch effort than something to be relied on (I never Rend lol).
• Force Weapons: as IK Viper points out--this is where the majority of our AP3- lies
• Brotherhood of Psykers: most of our units have unique psychic abilities (some better than others), and they should be seen as tool kits to round out our lists.
• Deep Strike: this gets rolled nicely into a variety of deployment options that we have; the flexibility here is something we should capitalize on.
• Henchmen: I don't use them, so I'll let y'all do the talking about them :)

 

• Personal Teleporters: something that warrants mentioning is the ability of our Interceptors and Dreadknights to Shunt into optimal positions
• 2+ Armor: it is a distinct advantage for us Knights that we can have every model on the board in 2+ armor if we so desired
• Combat Squads: every marine gets it, but the ability to mitigate return fire by dispersing larger volumes of enemy fire across smaller units is critical to overcoming our low-body count. It also makes our units more efficient offensively by increasing granularity and ensuring that no wound caused is ever wasted as "overkill"
• Assault Weapons: the medium range on our guns combined with the fact they're Assault means that we operate at full efficiency on the move and over any point along our threat radius.
• Weapon Arrangements: it's something that gets glossed over too often, but can be really nifty to have the Daemon Hammer on a regular model and not on the Justicar (or hell even a squad of Daemon Hammers: see the look of surprise on your opponents face when five Purifiers roll out of a Stormraven with 15 daemon hammer attacks)

2. Weaknesses (I'll save Battle Plans for last since it should include both our Strengths and Weaknesses)

• Low Model Count: as IK Viper points out, and I'll add that this also entails that we are typically on a faster clock than our opponents; we lose critical mass significantly before they do.
• Lack of AP2-: We do not have cheap options for AP2- (with the exception of Henchmen), so we either have to pay a premium for these weapons or we have to figure out how to do without.
• Lack of Medium Vehicles: since we don't have things like Predators or Vindicators in our arsenal our approach to mech is either very soft (as opposed to say Eldar, BA's, Guard, Necrons), or very Land Raider oriented.
• Lack of Anti-Flyer: here we pretty much have two options: Psyflemen, who are mediocre at best; or Stormravens, which aren't too reliable given the facts that reserves are random, and interceptors exist.

3. Battle Plan/List Design:

Our list designs need to be very carefully tailored to the Battle Plans that we have in mind. The Water Warrior principles are definitely still alive and well with Grey Knights, and so our Battle Plans must vary with the composition of our enemies: chop the shooty things and shoot the choppy things. Given this, we can all design a decent variety of lists but flexibility should always be our number one consideration.

When it comes down to battle plan our overall goal should be to soften the enemy up with shooting for however many turns necessary, before launching our assault.

I've been trying for the past while now to go into more detail, but I don't think the kinds of generalities I was speaking in were either useful, or pertinent to solely Grey Knights (thats how general they were lol). After having enumerated our most important list design consideration (imo), and our overall in-game goal, the only thing left is to evaluate individual lists themselves. That's where we'll really see how well bases are covered and how the game using such a list should flow. I suppose if the OP would like for others to throw down their lists and talk about the way they envision that'd be helpful for all :)

[IK Viper]

I personnally am finding the lack of AP2 to be the biggest problem with the GK.  I am currently supplementing with Marine Allies as they add cheaper bodies, reliable AP2, and a variaty of utility units that fill in alot of gaps. 

 

For example, Grav Bikes are a really great add to most GK lists as they add fast scoring, AP2, and the ability to scout/outflank.  GK have some trouble at killing MC's at range and these guys can take care of them effectively.  I don't use it, but I also think a TFire Cannon would be a great add to GK lists as it can punish enemy deckchair units that GK usually have trouble rooting out unless we have NDK's with Hvy. Incinerators.    The blend of GK rate of fire and CC meshed with Marine body count and AP2 have been working pretty well for me.

 

Sadly I think the GK play better as allies:

 

My 2K List Currently:

 

SM(White Scars)

 

Ka'Sarro Khan on Moondrakken

 

2X 5 man Bike Squad w/ Grav.'s and MB's

 

2X 10 man Tac. Squad in Rhino w/ Plas./C. Plas/ ML

 

2X WS Stormraven TLMM TLLC HB's

 

Bastion w/ Comm Relay

 

GK allies

 

OMI TDA, 3 SS, ML 1, Psycannon

10 man Strike Squad w/ 2 PC, PBolts, NDH (not on Justicar)

Purgation Squad (5) w/ w PC's

 

 

As you can see the GK add teh Dakka and dominate the middle of the board with the OMI and Purg Squad in the Bastion.  The White Scars add AP2, scoring bodies, and air cover.  I need some more games with this but I ahve been doing well with it, It is a truly TAC oriented list.  The Purgation Squad crushes anything in the middle with 20 PC rounds a turn letting the SM's fight on the flanks.