What's the big deal with legion rules? (lack there of)

[temneb]

Guys to start this topic off I'm going to say that I'm a player who is just starting to collect, model and intend to play a chaos world eaters based force. I've been a wolves now since 2nd ed and as a wolves player I've enjoyed a solid codex for a good while now.

 

I'm well aware that chaos troops are over costed, yet lately they have hit a cord and I'm going to create a pre heresy 30k and a post heresy 40k version.

 

I've been watching the rumors section closely in anticipation of the coming releases and have been baffled by the discussion re lack of rules that enable you to field a your force as the the remnants of a specific legion. I'll use the world eaters as an example as that's where I'm going, how much would have to change for you represent it as a "legion" force. I get that the points costs are way or of wack, but I think the blood gods mark and icon pretty well represent the world eaters tactics as and don't really see the need to add additional rules for me to portray the force as exclusively world eaters.

 

So what do you feel is missing? Help me understand the rage...

[daboarder]

Ask chaos players WHY they started the army and 8-9 out of 10 of them will state its because they wanted to play the original traitor legions.

 

Coupled with the fact that not only did we used to have pretty good and extensive rules for fielding such armies but that loyalists are able to do so (despite all the background stating they shouldn't be).

Time was you could fight against 6 different chaos players and each fight would be a unique and distinct list with its own tactical nuances.

 

 

We've been asking GW for those rules back since BEFORE day one of the 4th ed book and every time they try to cram "renegades" down our throat is another kick in the teeth.

 

Looking at the other armies none of them have to sacrifice nerely as much as we do in the name of "covering all the bases"

 

A hive fleet is always a hive fleet and the eldar (Both), and orks books do a good job of representing the variance in the factions via unit slot movement, but us, what do we have? an inflexible list that doesn't adequately represent even a recently turned chaos marine force. Its pathetic, bland, boring and so much less that what we had.

 

But most frustratingly of all is that maybe half a page of text would change all that.

 

all that is required is a way to turn units of different types into "cult" versions of themselves for the big bad 4, and a suite of special rules for the other legions, such as Infiltrate and deployment options for alpha legion armies, or Ld effects and rapid deployment options for nightlords. basically all thats needed is a version of the chapter tactics re-worked for the chaos legions

[Scribe]

I am going to use this opportunity, despite the fact I just hit 888 posts, to outline why I believe it is monumentally critical to the health of this entire franchise, for the Chaos Legions to get the respect they are due. Yes, I do feel it is that important.

 

As daboarder states, you ask the majority of Chaos players, who have been playing for a signifigant amount of time, why they got into it, and of all that I know (most of us between 25 and 35) it was the Chaos Legions.

 

Whats important about them? Their place in history, of the game that is.

 

The following truth's must be understood and accepted to understand my personal rage in this situation.

 

The game is about Humanity. It is about the struggle of humanity in the face of mounting terror, threat, and very real extinction. It is about becoming monsters to fight monsters, and the true horror of a universe that not only has Gods, but has Gods that we create, and that in reality want to consume our eternal souls.

 

The game is about the fall of Humanity, and that fall, is the result of the greatest betrayal that the Galaxy has ever known, that of Horus, favored son of the Emperor, architect of the ascension of humanity. Without Horus and the Legions, there is no 40K as we have it, Humanity wins, and the game ends.

 

The Legions are directly responsible for the slow death of humanity, and are waiting, in what equates to the actual hell of the universe, a hell of our own making to finish the job.

 

So, in summary of that, Chaos Legions are the 2nd major faction (Space Marines being the other of course) that set the ground level of the temple which GW built, that we call 40K.

 

Obviously, its a fairly critical position.

 

So, why the rage? Disparity, but lets go back further.

 

3rd Edition was a bland place, for a time. The books where very short on history, very short on depth. So what do we get? Index Astartes, and eventual 3.5.

 

This was the glory time for Chaos Legion fans. Of course we werent 'Legions' in the 30K sense, but what other term is there? We are not Chapters, we where never officially broken into units of 1000, there is no upper range for a 'Warband'.

 

I digress.

 

3.5 (and the Index Astartes articles that are still out on the web) gave the Chaos Legions meat, they gave us some fleshed out identity. Rules where applied across the board, with stat modification and rules laid out completely by the mark, or vet upgrade.

 

The players looked, and saw that this was good.

 

I ran World Eaters, my first 'completed' army. With Talismans, Rhino rushing, Berzerkers with Power Fists, and little else. It didnt matter if it wasnt great, because it was unified. One book, all the rules applied across the army. Troops, Terminators, Chosen, Lords (hell we had a mini lord, what a novel idea until the :cussING gavdex ruined it all)

 

The issue was not one of power in terms of mechanics. The issue was having rules that actually said 'World Eaters'. GW giveth, and GW taketh away.

 

4th Edition hits. Many are the tears shed upon tainted ground.

 

Instead of the massive customization we had available to us (I have reads with Nurgle Terminators, with Sonic Terminators, I went through many Berzerker kits making my Berzerker Terminators) we lost all that.

 

We cried, mail was sent, GW EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE THEIR MISTAKE. Unheard of I know, but they knew, KNEW, we hated it. There was lip service of a legion codex, but we all know how that went. Talk is cheap.

 

So we wait. We wait and we see what?

 

Daemons get their own book, CSM players who ran combined lists weep.

Wolves get THUNDERWOLVES, CSM playes who had Chosen on Juggernaughts (hey, hows it going) weep some more.

Books come out with All Terminator Lists, All Jumper Lists, we are however stuck with Double Lash, Plague Marines, Oblit Spam. How fluffy how deep the fluff was. What a great work, we had been left with.

 

Eventually, the tears are just too epic. 5th edition comes and goes, and the comical status of what SHOULD BE the big bad of the entire GAME is at its lowest. Gray Knights hit, a bloody marine carves into the heart of a Daemon Primarch.

 

Can it get any worse? I doubt it really. We had a terrible book, our models where WOEFULLY out dated, and our fluff, and position was being desecrated like a virgin at a slaanesh party.

 

So 6th is coming, and we, WE, are in the box set. BRING ON THE GLORY.

 

The Box set hits, and man, look at those models! This is CHAOS! THIS is the corrupted angels of the past. CSM are to be the first book of 6th! The long wait is over!

 

The rumours start to come, its mostly positive! Thanks to a LOT of lies over on Warseer (die in a fire Ghost) hope is at an all time high (tzeentch is laughing its ass off) before the hammer falls.

 

Our Codex:

That cover is a re-release of old art? Seems pretty lame for THE FIRST HARDCOVER 40K CODEX.

 

The Rules:

Where are the Legions? Didnt GW admit to wanting to do it? (They did) People said it couldnt be done in one book. (THIS IS IMPORTANT)

Why is there a Dragon in here?

What is this Dinobot?

Mutilators? golly gee are those and why are they terrible?

Warp Talons? 30 points for 1 T4 Wound? No Assault from Deep Strike?

These points costs are all out, AV12 walker spam? Is that a thing?

 

Frankly it was ok. There was room here to play, and the heldrake was (and is) overpowered in a pre Tau world.

 

I built out THREE CSM armies before Space Marines dropped. Then what do we see with Space Marines?

 

Wait, what is that there? It couldnt be? On page 77? What?

 

Chapter Tactics.

 

2 Pages covered every.single.loyalist.chapter. that didnt already GET THEIR OWN CODEX.

 

That was the kicker for me. At that point I knew, GW didnt care. They still dont, look at our supplements?

 

LEGION TRAITS

WARBAND TRAITS

PRIMARCH TRAITS

 

Call them whatever you want, we dont have them. So where are we now?

 

Our book is fatally flawed. It depends upon the good graces of the Heldrake to put any amount of pressure on the opponent, because now, with this many books out, S7 and S6 are SO spammed, even some armies can put S10 'spam' that our walkers are dust on the wind. However the drake is not 'fun' for anyone.

 

EDIT: Deployment options? Derp no. Transports? Enjoy that Rhino and over priced land raider? You want options, :cuss you.

Internally competitive? HAH. Its Heldrake first, Maulerfiend Second, Jugger Lord and Oblits following in their dino bot tail. The rest of the book? Brutal. Externally competitive? Riptide What? Wraitknights? Oh how about a nice Knight Titan? Chaos? :cuss you, go home and play with your dragon.

 

Cult troops? Plague Marines, still. Forever it seems.

 

6th didnt help assault, and our book REALLY didnt help assault.

 

End EDIT:

 

I dont like dropping it on the table, and saying 'that unit dies' and then 'that unit dies'. I dont like that its essentially the most internally and externally broken unit in the game, and I dont like that its an excuse for Space Marines, (you loyalist filth) to cry 'your book is fine'.

 

We have either over costed, or underperforming units, and GW has yet to address it, even in an age of 'supplements'.

 

But ultimately, given our place in the setting, we are simply not given any respect. Chaos Marines, should be SHOULD BE, right up there with Grey Knights in terms of power level, but instead? We are 'renegades', we are 'cultists', we are 'Crimson Slaughter'.

 

We are not World Eaters. There are no rules for Night Lords anymore, no Iron Warriors walk the trench line, and Thousand Sons? Just lol.

 

I've nursed this rage for years over a decade at this point, but for so long now really, I cant even remember not looking at my armies (long since rebuilt and sold twice over) with frustration.

 

Rant - End.

[Trevak Dal]

I think the biggest reason is because there are 'legion rules' for Loyalists (chapter tactics/traits).  Don't believe me?  Most of the Ultramarine Successors use Ultramarine Chapter Tactics.

 

All of the Imperial Fists successors use Imperial Fist chapter tactics.  Etc.

 

I imagine to many it feels like yet another rub of why Chaos just sucks and nobody should play it.  I mean, most match ups are Space Marines vs Space Marines anyways, so from a "Narrative forging" mindset-someone is the Heretic/traitor/etc (that and the Imperium of Man is assbackwards on the best of days)

 

Why play with :cusstier rules, just for a Daemon Prince, Not Real Battle Brothers and a book that Nickel and Dimes you every step of the way-but somehow doesn't allow you to purchase meaningful upgrades like an artificer armor equivalent.

Their argument of "Well we don't want space marines to all be the same" is dumb because...most loyalist space marines are kind of the same with minor differences.  They use pretty much the same kits with upgrade kits (Deathcompany box for blood angels, Space Wolf boxes for Wolves, Dangle Boxes for Dude Marines).  

 

There are minor things you CAN'T TAKE and do with EVERY Loyalist codex, but the majority of what you can do is the same across the board.  I think it's damn criminal how you STILL have to take special characters in Dark Angels to take a Deathwing or Ravenwing army.

 

It's really just about wanting a little more power and fluff.  I'd trade the Helturkeys and daemon engines I don't use and didn't want for some Fast Assault Rhinos and Drop pods for my Khorne armies-I don't care if they were from "World Eaters" legion traits or "Hello Kitty Khornate Cuddle Buddies" so long as it gave me fast open-topped dedicated transports and drop pod dedicated transports.

 

I'd also like ws5, furious charge and fearless across the board.  With the Chaos codex-I can come close, but I have to choose whether most units are going to be fearless or have furious charge (and the subsequent re-roll charge range), add to that the Icons are snipeable, and are god Specific except for the Fearless one, having Icons I can't use because everything is Khorne marked (...or nurgle marked, or what have you) kinda sucks.

 

Add to that if I want my army's universal Special Rule (Veterans of the Long War)...I have to pay for it, and it's an inconsistent points cost across the board.  1 point on troop CSMs, 3 on Terminators, 1 on Bikers, 3 on Raptors.

 

It feels like our codex was arbitrarily made inferior to Loyalists, without taking any real risks like...Markable Helbrutes.  Or Helbrutes being monstrous creatures.  Or...Daemon engines being monstrous creatures that were markable.  Markable vehicles etc.  And the supplements haven't added ANYTHING LIKE THAT so far, which is very insulting.

 

The Enclave supplement for tau lets CRISIS SUITS be troops...the Black Legion one lets Chosen be troops (after buying a mandatory upgrade cost).

 

That upgrade cost (across the board in the tau codex) is 1 point.  Woooooooooo.  As stated, it's all over the board in the Chaos codex.

 

They brought back the fluff where you couldn't have a Mark of Slaanesh lord in a Mark of Khorne unit, but didn't include stuff like discounts of gear for sacred numbers within marked units-but in general GeeDub seems to be taking that stuff away more often than not.

Khorne Beserkers having to buy their chainaxes is frustrating...I wish they were either like Scorpian Chainswords (+1 strength no ap) or were ap5 and rending.  And I wish you had the option to instead buy them another pistol-to have a Gunslinger unit with the same amount of attacks.

 

Khorne Beserkers essentially being Assault Marines (1 attack base, +1 for being double armed) is juggernaut :cuss.

[Scribe]

OPEN THE RANT THREAD.

[ChaosReigns]

       Well, I can't speak for others, but hopefully I can adequately explain my own point of view. I actually got into 40k because of the original Dawn of War (that is, the RTS) - prior to that, I had no knowledge of Warhammer at all, let alone of the Chaos Space Marines. Suffice to say, playing through the campaign of that video game, I concluded that 40k was insanely cool and I started to look into the tabletop game. I was already leaning towards Chaos at that point, but what really sealed the deal for me was that "Chaos" was in fact nine semi-distinct armies, each with its own history, tactical biases and lineage - all of which could be represented on the table! All of the Traitor Legions were pretty darn cool and I had a heck of a time choosing between them. It's almost amusing now to think that there was so much awesome stuff in that old book (which was actually a good deal thinner by way of page count than our current codex, by the way) that I actually had trouble deciding which of the various viable builds I was going to use.

       My mind was blown. Unlike, in say, Warcraft 2, where there were different Human nations and Orc clans in the lore, but really all they amounted to in actual gameplay was a different colour, in this game you could actually put a World Eaters army down on the table and it would be demonstrably different from a Thousand Sons army. I would contend at least as different as Space Wolves are from Dark Angels, or Blood Angels from Ultramarines.

       Then came 4th Edition, and team Chaos lost not only the daemons, really something that differentiated them tremendously from the Emperor's Space Marines, but also swathes of wargear, a multitude of various options and, to top it all off, the Legion rules. Then, to add insult to injury, the Loyalists hilariously got Chapter Tactics in their next codex. Not only do the anti-codex Chapters (Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels etc.) get their own books, but apparently the Chapters that do follow the Codex Astartes have more to differentiate them than the Legions of old, or at least those warbands that carry on the legacy of their respective Legions. The fact that Games Workshop didn't include Legion Tactics in this present book was, in my opinion, a further kick in the teeth. That particular companies within a single Chapter are getting differentiation on the table while the Legions languish in obscurity is simply unacceptable.

 

As an addendum to the above comments: regarding everything Trevak Dal has said about Khorne Berzerkers, all I can add is, yes, I agree totally. At least Khorne Berzerkers were viable in 4th Edition - I was a hard core World Eaters player in 3.5 and it was great fun. Now I have 40 or 50-something Khorne Berzerkers that haven't come off the shelf since the advent of our present codex. This is aggravating, to say the least.

[daboarder]

of note: If your going to wind up in an argument with some loyalist apologist prick who keeps spouting that the "legions are shattered" use the terminology "Legion warbands" its a lot harder for them to come up with an argument agaisnt it and is closer to what we  really want when you get right down to it.

[Scribe]

Indeed. Or bring up Sentinels of Terra, you know, because the ONE HUNDRED Imperial Fists on Terra are more unique and distinct from say...the 2nd or 4th Company, than Word Bearers are to Alpha Legion, Night Lords are to Iron Warriors.

 

Open

The

Rant

Thread

[daboarder]

yeah minigun, Can we please have the rant thread back, at the very least its cathartic and what I think a lot of us need right now.

[Excessus]

As the two gentlemen stated above (scribe & trevak), it's a long history to us that has played for a long time. It's usually us veterans that has played for a very long time that are screaming the highest because we have seen what has been and how it could have been.

 

I started my chaos army with playing Thousand Sons in 2nd ed after I read through the codex and just fell in love with the rich backstories of the legions and their fall from grace. The armies were menacing and the feel they had were awesome! They had old archaic gear, old prototypes of more modern equipment as cyclone missile launchers and plasma cannons only on dreads (because of the big need for cooling) and such. It was truly the remnants of the heresy. Even more recent renegades had a place as well with options to buy imperial gear for an 50% increase. You could also have daemons and ally in cultists for extra flavor! Codex: Chaos was a great codex!

 

Then came the blandness of the 3.0 codex...blandblandblandblandbland! All the codexes were a bit bland with 3.0 because of the big squish of 3d ed, but ours took the price! After that the 3.5 codex was a dream come true! So much to do, so much to convert, so many lists to make! Legions had no rules in 2nd ed, but they had a feel, that feel continued in 3.5.

 

4th ed came and completely destroyed all that. No daemons, no legions, no nothing...

 

...and the rest is modern history!

[Forté]

of note: If your going to wind up in an argument with some loyalist apologist prick who keeps spouting that the "legions are shattered" use the terminology "Legion warbands" its a lot harder for them to come up with an argument agaisnt it and is closer to what we really want when you get right down to it.

Just remind them the the Loyalist Legions do not exist as they are now sanitised by the Codex Imperialis and have limits imposed by non Astartes on Terra. That and Chaos 'warbands' are still often larger than a 'Chapter' and still favour the style of warfare from their original Legion.

 

World Eaters warbands are still affected by the Nails but also have Khorne adding to their rage.

Death Guard still fight wars of attrition with strange viruses but now have Nurgle keeping them alive.

Thousand Sons have more magic knowledge than ever.

Emperors Children have a new found understanding of 'perfection'.

Iron Warriors can bring siege weapons that the Imperium cannot even imagine.

Word Bearers can muster all kinds of daemonic support.

Alpha Legion are more sneaky than they ever were with no one able to keep tabs on them.

Night Lords have no one to tell them their methods are too extreme and to calm down.

 

But others have worded it so much better so I'll leave you to it.

[Deadman Wade]

Although, posts above sum everything up, I'll still want to say this.

I played Dawn of War (2005, IIRC), this awesome game made me read some fluff to choose a painting scheme - one dude said "haha, those Space Wolves eat a whole deer and a barrel of ale as their test before joining", I thought "I wonder what's the deal with spiky guys". I was almost shocked how cool Traitor Legions were, so I bought some miniatures and started painting.

I had no interest in renegade warbands that betrayed Imperium after Horus Heresy, and if there were no Legions, I wouldn't even thought about playing CSM at all. All those great 3,5 rules and variety, I was happy to make lists and play small games with my Night Lords, not the strongest, but cool army.

And now my CSM models are anything but ?Night Lords, just some renegades with dark blue armor.

I'd be happy even with just Horus Heresy book Legion specific rules and Rites of War tbh.

[temneb]

I think we all get the rules issues guys. Chaos got screwed, the points are way of given the dynamic of 6th ed as are the points costs of blood claws from the space wolves and many other individual units from other codex. And 60pts + for a champion you have take if you want decent ccw is nuts. I can get a terminator for 33 to lead my space wolf squads that doesn't have to challenge.

 

Though I do see the must challenge thing as fluffy for Korne and is it Slanesh?

 

So I get that any of the legions that aren't devoted to the big 4 are left out and I understand the wrath for that, "I had a night lords list that I can't do effectively anymore"

 

But how different would a world eaters marine be different to a Korne marine of another origin? And equally death guard, emperors children etc. Is there really any point having different types of Korne marines?

 

Isn't that really what cult troops are, at least in the world eaters case? I'm not down on the fluff so have no idea about the other 3, but I'm pretty sure that world eaters are now berserker's right?

 

Anyway as I see it, there doesn't need to be yet another layer of rules to make the legions that follow a specific god different in rules from those that also follow a the same god but didn't come from the original legion. Granted the points need amending to reflect the rules bias to shooting. One unit that can be only taken by a completely devoted army would be nice, that is really all you need.

 

The other 5 is another story and I feel for those who collect a night lords army for instance.

 

Again I reiterate that I understand that your situ with the lack of diversity and I understand it, jump pack blood claws are one of my favorite units and I can't make them competitive. It shoots me and I'd hate to have a whole codex where my troops where stuffed bar one selection.

 

I posted this in part to give you guys another place to rant. Because frankly the ranting is taking away from my excitement of the what's happening and I'm already sold on a chaos army.

 

I want better rules too, I'm pretty sure every one does. Even if it's just to shut you all up;) (joke)

 

But let's consider the facts here, GW are motivated by one thing $$$ right?

 

Is bitching about products in almost every Chaos related and non chaos related rumour thread, likely to improve the prospects of a convert joining your/our cause?

 

There are many cool things about chaos and this month may improve things a tad. If nothing else new miniatures will bring new people over, If I loved chaos so much I'd be encouraging people to get excited. Not trashing it before it's even been released.

 

Again I want to say that I think most of us understand the frustration, but the way things are going on the interweb is only hurting your cause.

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

Why is there not a letter-writing campaign in the works? There is such a vocal contingent of disaffected Chaos players it'd surely be worth the time and effort involved (not a lot more than what it took to write in this thread).

 

Unless Chaos players are really so far steeped in Slaaneshi worship that they enjoy the suffering ;)

[Forté]

Why is there not a letter-writing campaign in the works? There is such a vocal contingent of disaffected Chaos players it'd surely be worth the time and effort involved (not a lot more than what it took to write in this thread).

 

Unless Chaos players are really so far steeped in Slaaneshi worship that they enjoy the suffering ;)

Because it's never worked. And there's so much more than enjoyment from suffering ;)

[daboarder]

Its been tried. Its been teied so much its acknowledged and theb when it matters its ignored

[Excessus]

@temneb: Firstly, when you invite us in you can't go complaining about our whining knowing full well we'd do so from the start... ;)

 

 

And to answer your questions in there in the middle somewhere, yes, World Eaters are better than Khorne marines in close combat. They have the best and most experienced surgeons for installing the butcher's nails in their skulls, they also have the most potent geneseed for it, together with blood angels and space wolves. A World Eater, raised in a gladitorial arena in the eye of terror and that has been fighting at the frontline in melee for millennia, would be better than a recent renegade at butchering stuff in close combat.

 

Yes, World Eaters are berzerkers, but did they just give up their terminator armours? What about the elite berzerkers in the warband, the spiritual successors of the red butchers? Having slaughtered their way through masses of enemies for the privelidge of wearing such a great suit of armour (and they probably killed the former wearer as well), suddenly they get worse at fighting? What about when they ascend to lordhood as well, where did that Ws advantage go? Where did the furious charge go?

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

I got into Chaos Space Marines while 3.5 was still a thing. I read that Codex from cover to cover and found myself inspired. I sought out and read the Indices Astartes for the traitors and lost my faith in the Emperor. I read Lord of the Night and was captivated by Sahaal's tale and heartbroken for Curze. I read Storm of Iron and was in awe of the glory of the Legion and the grand vision of its warlord. I read Daemon World and found myself as intrigued by the phantasmagoric vision of a truly corrupted world therein as I was abhorrent of the vileness of the servants of the Dark Gods.

I read 3.5 to tatters within months; I read it alongside several other Codices and background pieces and found the inspiration for my second Warhammer 40,000 army: the Excommunicate Chapter of the Angels Ascendant, who are the axle around which my immersion in Warhammer 40,000 turns. Even now, as I collect an army that is strictly the antagonist in the tale of the Angels Ascendant, I find myself realizing that both armies are rooted deeply in what the 3.5 Codex represented: freedom, depth, love for the hobby, with all that that entails, a willingness to actually let these little plastic figurines we play with play like the monsters they represent in the Dark Millennium.

Now that Games Workshop has taken all that 3.5 was away, I find myself uninspired to do anything regarding the hobby except rant online and tinker with a fandex. And while I felt some trepidation before about giving Legions rules, now that the 6th edition Space Marines Codex, and all its accompanying supplements, are on the table, I feel little but contempt for the idea that the Legions and the warbands descended from them should not have special rules recognizing their particular talents. Contempt at the double standard. Contempt at the unfairmindedness. Contempt at the self-righteousness. Contempt at the shallow justifications regarding a fire-spitting wyvern of metal no one asked for and which makes a poor consolation prize. Contempt at the shallow incriminations based on long-dead powerbuilds involving those clad in iron and fond of chevrons. Contempt parallel to the contempt I feel as the bolter kicks in my hands to the ruin of my foes and my chainsword thrums hungrily as I draw it from its scabbard to sheathe it in some loyalist's guts, until all is lost in a haze of gore and I can almost taste the vengeance. Almost, but it is always another death away.

So, screw it. If Imperial Fist companies get supplements to differentiate them despite the strictures of the Codex, Chaos gets it all. My fandex has a Chapter-Traits analogue for the Legions and Red Corsairs, a Saga-analogue, dedication to the Gods represented on any given unit by an Icon/Mark/Cult system, Veteran Skills on each unit priced by it Artefacts for every God, ways to make every HQ a Dark Apostle or Sorcerer or Warpsmith, Daemon Engines in every slot, and will be (when finished) accompanied by a supplement for each Chaos God, available should one choose to run a mono-God army.

 

For the Long War... brothers.

 

[temneb]

They still get furious charge do they not? And the terminator armor was never well regard I the 12th right?

[Hellios]

We already have different Khorne marines... We have Zerkers, and those with just a mark. What is the difference between the World Eaters and other Khornate Marines? All of the World Eaters are Berserkers... The Terminators are zerkers, the bikers are zerkers, even the havoc squads are zerkers... I don't want to you to confuse fluff zerker with the current rules for a unit of berserkers.  

 

I don't think many players want a rule-set that forces people who have painted their models as World eaters to use a certain rule-set, and I don't think many players want to deny that rule-set to people who haven't painted their spiky marines in the right colour. What the players want is that rule-set. Even something along the lines of chapter tactics would make us feel a little better.

 

We would also like there to be a greater level of interaction between the CSM and Daemon codex, and possibly the Imperial Guard codex as well (renegades, the lost and the damned).

 

What do I want? Rubric terminators... Squads of Chosen sorcerers... Decent Tzeentch powers/ Aspiring sorcerers at a reasonable price... Our mandatory squad leader costs more than some HQs...

 

The same goes with other players and their factions... Some legions would require more work than others.

 

But even if we can't have legion rules.... what we want the most is an excuse not to run Heldrakes, Plague marines, and Oblits.

[Wade Garrett]

I want a way to differentiate between a Dark Apostle of the XVII who was forced to abase himself on Khur, who stood against the Lord of Ravens on Isstvan V and brought the war to Terra herself....

 

And ex Chaplain Joe of the Adamant Beagles Chapter who just turned to Chaos last Tuesday.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

They still get furious charge do they not? And the terminator armor was never well regard I the 12th right?

I hadn't read that, but while during the Great Crusade and the Heresy the World Eaters might have not been fans of Terminator Armor, after the Legion broke on Skalathrax such attitudes may have changed as circumstances demonstrated a need for it, and some commanders may have broken from Legion stricture to grow to like it.

And it just doesn't make sense for one World Eater with the Butcher's Nails and fanatical devotion to Khorne to differ so in gameplay terms to another Legionnaire who is exactly the same in the background but just is wearing different clothes.

And ex Chaplain Joe of the Adamant Beagles Chapter who just turned to Chaos last Tuesday.

Reclusiarch... Joe... fell to the Ruinous Powers? Chapter Master Wishbone must be informed of this! He has defiled our house, our very house, brothers! We shall fall upon him with all the wrath of a rolled-up newspaper!

[Wayniac]

I played in 2nd and early 3rd edition, right before the "Golden Age" of 3.5 but I remember the Index Astartes articles with legion rules.

 

For many of us, myself included, the appeal of Chaos was quite literally the chance to play an "evil Space Marine".  The fluff was excellent, the corrupted ancient reminder of the Imperium's glory days still existing... Chaos was always the "big bad" of the setting, that one looming fear on the horizon of the Imperium that if it ever came to light would expose the hypocrisy of Mankind and spell doom.  There's a reason why in the fluff the survivors of a Chaos attack are sent to concentration camps and/or sterilized and/or outright executed or scattered to the winds just so there's no chance of corruption and so they can't spread the word that Chaos is a real thing and give doubt to the word of the Imperium/Ecclesiarchy about the absolute gospel of the Emperor.

 

The current rules represent none of that pure evil and terror, and that's why a lot of us are upset (I can't really count myself since I don't play right now, but in spirit I guess), because the terror of the galaxy, the one thing that keeps the High Lords of Terra awake at night, the threat that causes the most pious preacher of the Ecclesiarchy to have doubt, the one threat that instills both fear and hatred in the Adeptus Astartes, one of the few threats that can cause an entire world to be subject to Exterminatus and wiped out of existence just so it doesn't spread, the one threat that has been present and pervasive for ten thousand years, is so lackluster that it might as well not exist.  They might as well have made the 6th edition Chaos codex like the old book where Chaos Marines were a tiny factor in a greater army of daemons, beastmen, cultists and others, since that would likely have seen more use than the actual Traitor Legions themselves.

[temneb]

We already have different Khorne marines... We have Zerkers, and those with just a mark. What is the difference between the World Eaters and other Khornate Marines? All of the World Eaters are Berserkers... The Terminators are zerkers, the bikers are zerkers, even the havoc squads are zerkers... I don't want to you to confuse fluff zerker with the current rules for a unit of berserkers.

Alright now I'm seeing the argument, world eaters are world eaters better at chopping things. And you don't think the rules make enough of a distinction already. So what level of rules do you guys think is appropriate? How tough does a zerker need to be, what gets him there and what's a reasonable cost for him? Does one zerker take out a 10 man space marine unit on his own if he gets to combat? What's the correct ratio?

 

And in this age of let's sell more models, is it likely that GW will reduce all the traitor legions to the super elites that the 10k years of experience should have earned them?

 

I do like the idea of an army of 20 WE, facing of against 40 odd SM Wirth support!

[Wayniac]

I played in 2nd and early 3rd edition, right before the "Golden Age" of 3.5 but I remember the Index Astartes articles with legion rules.

 

For many of us, myself included, the appeal of Chaos was quite literally the chance to play an "evil Space Marine".  The fluff was excellent, the corrupted ancient reminder of the Imperium's glory days still existing... Chaos was always the "big bad" of the setting, that one looming fear on the horizon of the Imperium that if it ever came to light would expose the hypocrisy of Mankind and spell doom.  There's a reason why in the fluff the survivors of a Chaos attack are sent to concentration camps and/or sterilized and/or outright executed or scattered to the winds just so there's no chance of corruption and so they can't spread the word that Chaos is a real thing and give doubt to the word of the Imperium/Ecclesiarchy about the absolute gospel of the Emperor.

 

The current rules represent none of that pure evil and terror, and that's why a lot of us are upset (I can't really count myself since I don't play right now, but in spirit I guess), because the terror of the galaxy, the one thing that keeps the High Lords of Terra awake at night, the threat that causes the most pious preacher of the Ecclesiarchy to have doubt, the one threat that instills both fear and hatred in the Adeptus Astartes, one of the few threats that can cause an entire world to be subject to Exterminatus and wiped out of existence just so it doesn't spread, the one threat that has been present and pervasive for ten thousand years, is so lackluster that it might as well not exist.  They might as well have made the 6th edition Chaos codex like the old book where Chaos Marines were a tiny factor in a greater army of daemons, beastmen, cultists and others, since that would likely have seen more use than the actual Traitor Legions themselves.

 

Well... there should have always been multiple types of Chaos, as many or more than Space Marines get their codexes:

 

1) Traitor Legions, small (think GK style) bands of uber-warriors with 10,000 years experience that wiped out entire species without a second thought and fought alongside the Primarchs remembered only in legends

 

2) Renegades, recent chapters fallen to Chaos - basically Space Marines without some SM only stuff, limited gear and small access to some Chaos things (e.g. lose ATSKNF, get ability to take marks, something like that)

 

3) Chaos Warband - basically what we have now, combined list representing amalgamation of CSM, cultists, daemons and daemon engines from some godforsaken fringe world, or a combined arms effort (e.g. Black Crusade).

 

4) Lost and the Damned - Cultists + Beastmen + Daemons with limited CSM access representing their dark overlords

 

5) Daemons

 

and you could technically add Traitor Guard to that, as slightly more militia guardsmen with Lost and the Damned type extras.