What's the big deal with legion rules? (lack there of)

[Sception]

I personally think the legion rules thing is overplayed and overblown.  The real problem is that our book lacks the diversity of functional options to adequately represent the legions from within the codex itself.  If you go back to the 3.5 book and drop the legion specific bonuses entirely, you can still represent pretty much any legion pretty much perfectly.  Cult HQs and specialists, especially terminators, plus the option for cult troops so long as your commander has the cult upgrade?  It's there.  Viable assaulty, shooty, & daemon based configurations?  There.  A range of veteran skills to let your taylor the abilities and fighting style of your marines to a legion theme?  There.  The few things that were missing - accursed crozius to make your lord a 'dark apostle', servo arm to make them a 'warsmith', cultists, etc - really didn't need to be restricted to minor sub-lists, anyway, it would have been enough to have an 'unaligned only' wargear section with those wargear options, and cultists especially had no business being legion locked to the alpha legion.  Once you take those out, what were the legion rules anyway?  Arbitrary discounts for running specific numbers of guys in squads?  Manipulation of the force org chart itself - something that had no business being a thing in the first place?  Bah.

 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be legion rules - minor cookies to encourage fluffy builds and let players of particular legions feel special, but you're not going to fix the underlying problem with our book - that it doesn't have enough options for customization of units or lists, and the options it does have are too often just plain bad or uninspired or even in some cases too good.  trying to fix that with rules pasted on top of that inadequate foundation just isn't going to do it.

 

Legion rules are necessary for a good chaos marine ruleset so that players who like the very popular legion army themes will be happy.  But you need a good foundation first.

[Scribe]

Completely agree on the foundation point malisteen, which is 100% why any supplement (at the level we saw with Black Legion) will fail.

 

We dont even have the basic toolset to go to work with.

 

Deployment options.

Transport options, and dont say Forge World. I love FW, I spend 1000's on FW. It doesnt matter.

Synergy

Allies (Hey, Battle Bros, want to hang out? No? Your Daemons? I dont have a Bro? :cussty)

 

The list goes on and on.

[Artein]

1) Traitor Legions, small (think GK style) bands of uber-warriors with 10,000 years experience that wiped out entire species without a second thought and fought alongside the Primarchs remembered only in legends

 

Oh, man.... I remember those early rumours about Legions being super elite kinda like Grey Knights.... 20 models in a full 1.5-2k pts game. I was so hyped back then.

 

Well, now my Black Legion is on hiatus. My 40k is on hiatus. Reading 40k novels while going to work, listening to 40k audios while painting Warmachine, Infinity and Malifaux. I'm a miserable being.

[Kilofix]

I personally think the legion rules thing is overplayed and overblown.  The real problem is that our book lacks the diversity of functional options to adequately represent the legions from within the codex itself.  If you go back to the 3.5 book and drop the legion specific bonuses entirely, you can still represent pretty much any legion pretty much perfectly.  Cult HQs and specialists, especially terminators, plus the option for cult troops so long as your commander has the cult upgrade?  It's there.  Viable assaulty, shooty, & daemon based configurations?  There.  A range of veteran skills to let your taylor the abilities and fighting style of your marines to a legion theme?  There.  The few things that were missing - accursed crozius to make your lord a 'dark apostle', servo arm to make them a 'warsmith', cultists, etc - really didn't need to be restricted to minor sub-lists, anyway, it would have been enough to have an 'unaligned only' wargear section with those wargear options, and cultists especially had no business being legion locked to the alpha legion.  Once you take those out, what were the legion rules anyway?  Arbitrary discounts for running specific numbers of guys in squads?  Manipulation of the force org chart itself - something that had no business being a thing in the first place?  Bah.

 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be legion rules - minor cookies to encourage fluffy builds and let players of particular legions feel special, but you're not going to fix the underlying problem with our book - that it doesn't have enough options for customization of units or lists, and the options it does have are too often just plain bad or uninspired or even in some cases too good.  trying to fix that with rules pasted on top of that inadequate foundation just isn't going to do it.

 

Legion rules are necessary for a good chaos marine ruleset so that players who like the very popular legion army themes will be happy.  But you need a good foundation first.

 

Not meant to be argumentative, I was on hiatus from 40K when 3.5 was probably out, but can someone give a more detailed description of these lists or units that we can no longer build?

 

Thanks.

[Scribe]

A detailed list? Who has the time?

[Wayniac]

 

I personally think the legion rules thing is overplayed and overblown.  The real problem is that our book lacks the diversity of functional options to adequately represent the legions from within the codex itself.  If you go back to the 3.5 book and drop the legion specific bonuses entirely, you can still represent pretty much any legion pretty much perfectly.  Cult HQs and specialists, especially terminators, plus the option for cult troops so long as your commander has the cult upgrade?  It's there.  Viable assaulty, shooty, & daemon based configurations?  There.  A range of veteran skills to let your taylor the abilities and fighting style of your marines to a legion theme?  There.  The few things that were missing - accursed crozius to make your lord a 'dark apostle', servo arm to make them a 'warsmith', cultists, etc - really didn't need to be restricted to minor sub-lists, anyway, it would have been enough to have an 'unaligned only' wargear section with those wargear options, and cultists especially had no business being legion locked to the alpha legion.  Once you take those out, what were the legion rules anyway?  Arbitrary discounts for running specific numbers of guys in squads?  Manipulation of the force org chart itself - something that had no business being a thing in the first place?  Bah.

 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be legion rules - minor cookies to encourage fluffy builds and let players of particular legions feel special, but you're not going to fix the underlying problem with our book - that it doesn't have enough options for customization of units or lists, and the options it does have are too often just plain bad or uninspired or even in some cases too good.  trying to fix that with rules pasted on top of that inadequate foundation just isn't going to do it.

 

Legion rules are necessary for a good chaos marine ruleset so that players who like the very popular legion army themes will be happy.  But you need a good foundation first.

 

Not meant to be argumentative, I was on hiatus from 40K when 3.5 was probably out, but can someone give a more detailed description of these lists or units that we can no longer build?

 

Thanks.

 

The gist of it is is that they let you change up the FOC and sometimes gave you extras.  For example, Iron Warriors could take Obliterators as Elite AND Heavy support (so you could field 6), and could take 0-1 Corrupted Vindicator or Basilisk.  Night Lords I think got 4 Fast Attack choices and could make opponents re-roll Reserves.  Alpha Legion I think could have everybody (most things?) Infiltrate.

 

I don't 100% remember the specifics, but they made it so an Iron Warriors army played very differently from a Night Lords army which played differently from Alpha Legion, all of which played differently than your "generic" Black Legion army. 

 

Compare that to now where most Chaos armies that want to win field the same things.

[Minsc]

I'm not gonna type much, since most of my opinions has already been said by others (specifically Malisteen and Scribe of Khorne).

 

Let's just say that I started Thousand Sons in 3,5 and loved it. I loved Chaos.

 

Over the years, my army grew, it's probably now up in close to 12.000-14.000 points (Not only Thousand Sons anymore). It kept growing during 4th. I didn't like the codex, but it was useable. It was nice to mix marks within your list, even if I missed 3.5 and I was hoping that one day, legions would be a thing again. I waited...all trough 5th Ed.

 

6th Ed. hit, and while I saw some things that I liked, I knew instantly that this codex would be pretty sheit. Slightly better than the 4th Ed. one, but just barely - maybe if the other 6th ed. codeci would be as 'balanced' ('balanced' is only a different word for 'weak' right?) as the CSM-dex was, it would be fine right? 

 

Afew codeci into 6th we know that this is not the case. CSM is yet again first and weakest codex in a edition. Shafted again.

 

But maybe GW is right, maybe it's hard/impossible to make the legions justice in a single codex?

Autumn 2013. C:SM is released. Page 77-78 gives the SM-chapters everything I wanted and dreamed of for my CSM. 2 pages with rules. Rules that aren't even difficult or complex... Shafted, yet again.

 

Spring 2014. The Crimson Slaughter-supplement is released. We're not even shafted at this point, we're beyond that.

I can't even be bothered to be angry or sad about the current situation about Chaos Space Marines. GW just proved what I've been fearing for the last 7-8 years. It's not that they don't know how to fix CSM ...they simply don't care about CSM anymore. 

 

My Orks are not powerful, but at least they are fun. My Eldar are both fun and powerful, and my new Salamanders are as well.

My CSM are neither, so I've shelved them for now. I just can't be bothered anymore. 

 

/Rant.

[the jeske]

Quote

Once you take those out, what were the legion rules anyway? Arbitrary

discounts for running specific numbers of guys in squads? Manipulation

of the force org chart itself - something that had no business being a

thing in the first place? Bah

"free" veteran traits. options that would make you want to play undivided[marks had a drawback in 3.5 . if you took a mark you could have only 1 vet skill . unless ,of course , you played a legion list and the list told you which additional veteran skill you may get . There were discounts on upgrades. Legion specific gear . Legion specific units . The rules were made to make people want to play legion X and not just limit someone to one build . Every army could [well of the non cult ones zerkers couldn't have infiltration , because they had to take FC] build an infiltration build . But all of the were different . AL could take infiltrating tank hunter havocks , WB could mix infiltrators with different demons , for DG infiltration was their transport etc.

 

People were asking for examples .

 

This are AL lists

Lord

Lt both infiltrating both with speed [12"charge and fleet] one dude with FC , demonic strenght and a dark blade , another with demonic strenght FC and a power weapon .

2x5las plas

3x6 3AC tank hunter havocks.

 

DG

Lord scyth , speed , strenght , infiltration

2x7 pms with plasma

2x7 pm havocks with plasma

defiler with indirect fire

 

EC

lord , bike , syren , 6 minor psychic powers , power weapon

2x6 NM one with 2 plasma , one with sonic blasters

1x3 bikers mos

4x6 netts

 

WB

apostol

2x5 las plas

2x8 dual plas infiltrating csm

2x6 netts

2x8 letters

2x demonic possesed triple las preds.

 

 

 

The difference between lists . AL could buy infiltration for any foot model for 1point , instead of 3 and it was its bonus vet trait , So all AL could have a second vet skill . DG had free champs and plasma havocks , exclusive reaper . EC had an untargetable lord , very hard melee troops . Offten seen as the troll list . WB had more troop slots and could mix demons from different gods without taking marks . This are just examples there were more infiltration builds and they could be more different , I listed the goldfish builds.

[Slayer le Boucher]

I Began playing 40k in the very first days of 3rd Ed.

 

Like a bunch of kids at the time, i've seen pictures and stuff of 40k models in some magasins, or Comic stores.

 

My first ever 40k model, was a metal Assault Cannon Terminator, i tried to paint it like the pics i saw in the shop, i was proud has a Peacock, with my stripes of blue and yellow to make it look like the models i had seen on the Boxes( Ultramarines paint scheme on tac boxes and LSpeeder boxes).

 

Then i bought my first White Dwarf, boy was i impressed, all those cool looking models, the fluff around it, the "mise en scene" of the models in the pictures.

That first WD, was the one with the "new" Chaos Space Marines codex, the first one of the 3rd Ed, know as the Jervisdex, with that big ugly face of a CSM on it.

 

i instantly falled in love with it, in my young mind i though that Space Marines and Chaos Space MArines where the same army, only that Chaos Space Marines where meanier, thougher and enjoyed to kill, hence the "Chaos".

 

I only discovered later the true story behind the Heresy and the Sm and CSM, even thouhg i had begun collecting an Ultramarines army.

 

But even so, i allready had predispositions to be a Chaos worshipper, my UM where dirty with splatters of bloods, Orks blades in place of combat knives, and dead bodies on their bases...

 

So it din't last long before their Blue was changed to a Black and Red colour scheme, i've reluinquished Marneus Calgar in the box for Khârn the Betrayer, bhought my first Zerkers , Chaos Rhinos and LR.

 

At the time the Jervisdex wasn't really awesome, but i din't have any material to compare it to, so...

 

At the tome the MoK gave +1S, Possesed rolled their mutations at the beginning of the game and made 3 rolls, they still had nades and Pistols, and if you where lucky they Where S+1, Ap3 and move like Jump infantry.

 

Cult Termis and Juggers units, Deamons where all the same profil, only one stat changed given the allignement, also there was a bonus to the reserve roll depending on some events prior to the Deamons arrival and their allignement( Khorne's deamons would ahve a +1 on their roll, if a unit had launched an assault in the previous turn etc)

 

But at the time, even if my force was heavy on Khorne, i still had a Termi Sorceror of Tzeentch with some Rubrics, its when 3rd shifted to 3.5Ed with updated rules for assault and Index Astartes World Eaters, that Khorne had my soul for eternity.

 

Then the 3.5 dx knowed as the Hainesdex..., oh God is till make torrid, wet, dreams about it.

 

World Eaters army, whasn't the most subtle force, but they where God like in what they did, the only other MeQ that was on par with them was BA's.

 

Khârn with 2+ save, EW, 4W, FnP Collar of Khorne and all the classic stuffs for 180pts.

 

Customisation of your Lord and Lieutenant( cheap HQ with same stats has a Dark Apostle), had a limitation of 0-1 on Deamon princes and Greater Deamons and a few select units like Raptors and Oblits, this way you avoided spam lists( all the books had 0-1 on units that where too good for the balance if taken in as spam)

 

But even so, it din't seem like some restraint or limitations, it was logic and a way to balance things, so that the game stayed enjoyable for everyone, and even with those restrictions and the further restrictions you had with a specific Legion, the game and army was still a lot more enjoyable then it is now.

 

I loved my Zerkers units Rhino-rhusing ennemy lines, charging head first killing units and then Sweep Advance in other units.

 

Loved to see a Champ Possesed by my Bloodthirster and my Bloodletters be Summoned and charging the same turn, loved my 2 Dreads with Plasmacanon and Double CCW, the Defiler was nice, it was a MC in cc and could make Indirect shots with its cannon and only Cost 150pts base ( had to pay +40pts for the indirect option though)

 

And my tactics and my list, everything worked, i lost games, but by a thin hair only, or even winning by the nick of my fingers, and i enjoyed, more then in any other Edition of the rules or Codex after this.

 

Then came 4th, and we all know how it went...

 

My Lieutenant on foot with Berserker glaive and my Lieutenant on Demonic Steed, where put on the shelf, my Deamons only saw the table when playing a 2 vS 1 game, 2 Players with each a list, and me alone with a Khorne deamons list and my WE list.

 

My Termies din't see a table since then, come on...Termies of Khorne who arn't Fearless and forget how to Khorne once the Icon bearer is dead?...

 

Only redeeming things was that Defilers where cheap, the Khorne Deamon weapon was still nice, even if the rules for Deamon weapons where stupid, and even though Zerkers lost their Khorne Wargear( Axe of Khorne, i will never forget you...), they still had FC and Fearless and gained +1WS.

 

And then 6th book...

 

WHile there is stuffs i like it the book; Maulers, Juggerlords, cheap bikes, there is juts too many things that i dislike about it to be really happy about it.

 

And has it was said above, GW told us in 5th Ed about the 4th Ed codex that they knew they made a mistake, that a Legions book was in the works, and what?...5 years later, we still don't have anything close to it.

 

Why Chaos players whine about Legions?, for the same reasons that SM players like their Chapters, Character, Personality and Historical implications and also gameplay.

 

I really would like to see the day where SM players doesn't get Chapter Tactics or any equivalant..., and see who the whinny-McBitch is...

 

And i would be like" Ahaha!, you see?, you see it?, how annoying and bad it is to be bend over and taken to brown town?!"

[Wayniac]

 

Quote

Once you take those out, what were the legion rules anyway? Arbitrary

discounts for running specific numbers of guys in squads? Manipulation

of the force org chart itself - something that had no business being a

thing in the first place? Bah

"free" veteran traits. options that would make you want to play undivided[marks had a drawback in 3.5 . if you took a mark you could have only 1 vet skill . unless ,of course , you played a legion list and the list told you which additional veteran skill you may get . There were discounts on upgrades. Legion specific gear . Legion specific units . The rules were made to make people want to play legion X and not just limit someone to one build . Every army could [well of the non cult ones zerkers couldn't have infiltration , because they had to take FC] build an infiltration build . But all of the were different . AL could take infiltrating tank hunter havocks , WB could mix infiltrators with different demons , for DG infiltration was their transport etc.

 

People were asking for examples .

 

This are AL lists

Lord

Lt both infiltrating both with speed [12"charge and fleet] one dude with FC , demonic strenght and a dark blade , another with demonic strenght FC and a power weapon .

2x5las plas

3x6 3AC tank hunter havocks.

 

DG

Lord scyth , speed , strenght , infiltration

2x7 pms with plasma

2x7 pm havocks with plasma

defiler with indirect fire

 

EC

lord , bike , syren , 6 minor psychic powers , power weapon

2x6 NM one with 2 plasma , one with sonic blasters

1x3 bikers mos

4x6 netts

 

WB

apostol

2x5 las plas

2x8 dual plas infiltrating csm

2x6 netts

2x8 letters

2x demonic possesed triple las preds.

 

 

 

The difference between lists . AL could buy infiltration for any foot model for 1point , instead of 3 and it was its bonus vet trait , So all AL could have a second vet skill . DG had free champs and plasma havocks , exclusive reaper . EC had an untargetable lord , very hard melee troops . Offten seen as the troll list . WB had more troop slots and could mix demons from different gods without taking marks . This are just examples there were more infiltration builds and they could be more different , I listed the goldfish builds.

 

:'( Death Guard Havocs

 

Veteran Skills

 

Chaos Lieutenants

 

Las/Plas

 

*sniff* Those were the days

 

(sung to the tune of All in the Family theme song)

Mister we could use a man like Andy Chambers again

Didn't need no dataslates

Orks and Sisters pulled their weight

White Dwarf issues sure were great

Those... were... the... daaaaaaays!

[Sception]

Things that once were, that are no longer:

 

Cults as an upgrade instead of separate units, allowing for terminators of each cult, cult bikers, havocs, & generic HQs.

 

vet skills allowing for infiltrate, furious charge, tank hunters, allowing you to taylor how your marines played on the field.  Heavy weapons inn five man squads also went a long way towards making shooty chaos builds a thing.

 

Daemons weren't a separate army at the time, so they were fully integrated with chaos marine armies, instead of having next to no integration at all.  Daemon units could be summoned off of your squad bannners, greater daemons would appear by possessing the body of one of your champions, etc.

 

Mechanized assault lists were a thing for chaos, not because we've lost units since, but because rhinos no longer function for that sort of build, and we've seen nothing introduced since to replace that loss.

 

much greater diversity of equipment and upgrade options for your HQs, allowing  you to tailor their stats, skills, weapons, and equipment as you liked.  Yes, some of those options were just broken (prince with dread axe, the slaaneshi minor psychic power that made its user untargetable), but even removing the broken elements, the range of customization of your commander puts our current options to shame, and in particular our lords could be melee monsters to be feared by their loyalist counterparts.

 

Our icons worked as teleport homers for daemons, and teleport homers could be purchased for use by our terminators as well, allowing for chaos terminator builds that simply do not function in the current book.

 

Our vehicle upgrades were also far more deadly.  AV13 dreadnoughts and walkers, possessed to ignore or regenerate any damage that didn't outright kill them blasted away at our enemies with direct and indirect fire, and charged anything that dared come close to smash them in melee.

 

 

I built lists were infiltrating chaos marines and fast bike squads provided launching points for deadly terminator and daemon strikes.  I made lists where squads of berzerkers and possessed in rhinos crashed into enemy lines like fiery comets.  I made lists were dour soldiers defended guarded battlements bristling with heavy weapons, daring any enemy to cross the blasted no-mans land.  I made lists where clanking warmachines punished our enemies with devastating heavy weapon fire, and srugged off all but the most powerful return attacks.

 

And I made all these lists as a black legion player, without even any legion list extras available to me.

 

 

Now, not everything was perfect.  The legion lists could sometimes be overly limiting to the imaginations and creativity of those who used them.  Some of the options were just broken - the game is better off without untargetable daemon princes that ignore all saves in melee,  or alpha rush, first turn charge infiltrating jump troops, or rending daemons that deep strike without scatter and assault the turn they land.  And frankly,  I prefer a distinction between marks and cult troops, and would prefer if khorne cult armies, for instance, had the option of khornate heavy weapon troopers, even if their cult units eschewed such bother.  And I like having cultists available to everyone, as I've said, they had no reason being an alpha legion exclusive to begin with.

 

But even with my complaints, if I had to pick one chaos book as the one that best exemplified what chaos should be, the 3.5 book came closest.

[Kilofix]

Thanks for the descriptions. Now I'm intrigued. I just bought the 3.5 from eBay.

[Wayniac]

Thanks for the descriptions. Now I'm intrigued. I just bought the 3.5 from eBay.

 

I hope you have some tissues as well because after reading the 3.5 book you will be crying at how Chaos has become :(

[infyrana]

So many things to be said.  I have a 40k Death Guard army, I just wanted to build and play plague marines with plague marines characters, maybe some tanks, few terminators, havocs, and dreadnoughts with perhaps a daemon prince to show their final turn to chaos...  What I don't want is the need for masses of zombies, some daemons, more daemons, daemon flying engines, daemon-dreadnoughts (hellbrute is where I see that), daemon battle cannons that came out of a will smith western movie, or the whole imperial guard style renegade chapter.  Leaving me just a single entry for PM's and a mark of nurgle as a substitute that feels like a last minute throw-away.

 

Rather than complaining or fighting against the masses of new releases and codex / dataslates etc, I gave up and moved over to a 30k HH DG list.  It's now space marines all over but with DG specific rules, fluff coming out of the books in the bucket loads, and more than one character!  Sure, it's not 40k DG, but that's fine, I prefer the 30k version anyway - oh and no spikes/chains/skulls!

[Sception]

"free" veteran traits.

 

Alpha Legion got a discount on infiltrate, and night lords had a skill options others didn't have, but I don't remember anybody getting any skills for free.  Maybe night lords and night vision, or Iron warriors and seige specialists?  Pretty minor rules, though.

 

 

options that would make you want to play undivided[marks had a drawback in 3.5 . if you took a mark you could have only 1 vet skill . unless ,of course , you played a legion list and the list told you which additional veteran skill you may get.

 

You just listed the option to make you want to play undivided: marks ate up a vet skill slot. And I don't recall any of the legion rules making an exception on that.

 

 

Legion specific gear.

 

As I mentioned, little of that needed to be legion specific.

 

 

Legion specific units.

 

Cultists? Zero business being alpha legion specific. Vindicators likewise are fine as a general unit, didn't need to be legion locked, and the current allies system sorta removes the need for things like iron warrior basilisk access.

 

 

The rules were made to make people want to play legion X and not just limit someone to one build . Every army could [well of the non cult ones zerkers couldn't have infiltration, because they had to take FC] build an infiltration build. But all of the were different. AL could take infiltrating tank hunter havocks, WB could mix infiltrators with different demons, for DG infiltration was their transport etc.

 

Again, I played black legion, and fielded all of those armies - infiltrating tank hunting havocs, infiltrators as summoning platforms in

a daemon/terminator bomb list, infiltrating plagues, etc - without legion rules.

 

I'm not trying to say legion rules were a bad thing. Minor cookies to help people feel their armies are special are a good thing! Legion rules should come back! But they're not what made these builds possible in the first place. They were the garnish on a fabulous dish. Putting that same garnish on a bland, microwave dinner isn't going to make it fine cuisine.

 

 

 

People were asking for examples .

 

This are AL lists

Lord

Lt both infiltrating both with speed [12"charge and fleet] one dude with FC , demonic strenght and a dark blade , another with demonic strenght FC and a power weapon .

2x5las plas

3x6 3AC tank hunter havocks.

 

(note that AL only provides a points discount on infiltrate here, this list doesn't even make use of their exclusive access to cultists)

 

 

 

DG

Lord scyth , speed , strenght , infiltration

2x7 pms with plasma

2x7 pm havocks with plasma

defiler with indirect fire

 

(note that DG only provides discounts on the unit champs here)

 

 

EC

lord , bike , syren , 6 minor psychic powers , power weapon

2x6 NM one with 2 plasma , one with sonic blasters

1x3 bikers mos

4x6 netts

 

again, legion rules are just discount on champs, here.

 

 

WB

apostol

2x5 las plas

2x8 dual plas infiltrating csm

2x6 netts

2x8 letters

2x demonic possesed triple las preds.

 

Here we have some actual legion rules in play, in that the WB legion rules provided the 'accursed crozius' wargear that makes a lord an apostle, and alterations to the force org to allow for 8 troops units in a single force org.

 

 

The difference between lists . AL could buy infiltration for any foot model for 1 point , instead of 3 and it was its bonus vet trait, So all AL could have a second vet skill.

 

They did get a points discount, but anybody could have a second skill.

 

 

DG had free champs and plasma havocks, exclusive reaper.

 

Any HQ with the mark of nurgle (which was the plague marine cult upgrade at the time) could take the plague reaper. The books of the gods sections & gifts of the gods wargear options they included were not restricted to particular legions.

 

 

EC had an untargetable lord, very hard melee troops. Often seen as the troll list.

 

The EC legion rules just discounted champs. Neither the minor psychic powers that could make an HQ untargetable nor the deadly daemonettes were provided by the legion rules.

 

 

 

WB had more troop slots and could mix demons from different gods without taking marks.

 

They had more troop slots, and the accursed crozius, but daemons were not restricted to armies with particular marks - most of the other legion rules either limited you to one mark or prevented you from taking daemons altogether, or restricted what units you could summon them off of (only cultist banners could summonn daemons for alpha legion, night lords could only take furies, etc).

 

 

 

This are just examples there were more infiltration builds and they could be more different , I listed the goldfish builds.

 

There was also the ever popular Iron Warrior build, with indirect fire defiler & basilisk, & multiple units of obliterators (obliterators were 0-1 for other legions).

 

And there was the black legion 6 HS squad build. At the time, if you upgraded a unit with a mark other than that of your lord, they became an elite unit, so the Black could take three squads of noise marine havocs in elite, and then three more heavy slots.

 

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to disagree with the notion that we had more or more interesting builds, and again I'm not trying to say legion rules were a bad thing or unimportant. But, for the most part, they weren't what made those builds possible in the first place, they just provided some extra encouragement.

 

And some of what the legion rules did shouldn't have been to begin with, and would need to be dropped along with dread axes and siren and such were such rules to be updated for modern 40k.

[VIIILegionaire.]

 

 

I personally think the legion rules thing is overplayed and overblown. The real problem is that our book lacks the diversity of functional options to adequately represent the legions from within the codex itself. If you go back to the 3.5 book and drop the legion specific bonuses entirely, you can still represent pretty much any legion pretty much perfectly. Cult HQs and specialists, especially terminators, plus the option for cult troops so long as your commander has the cult upgrade? It's there. Viable assaulty, shooty, & daemon based configurations? There. A range of veteran skills to let your taylor the abilities and fighting style of your marines to a legion theme? There. The few things that were missing - accursed crozius to make your lord a 'dark apostle', servo arm to make them a 'warsmith', cultists, etc - really didn't need to be restricted to minor sub-lists, anyway, it would have been enough to have an 'unaligned only' wargear section with those wargear options, and cultists especially had no business being legion locked to the alpha legion. Once you take those out, what were the legion rules anyway? Arbitrary discounts for running specific numbers of guys in squads? Manipulation of the force org chart itself - something that had no business being a thing in the first place? Bah.

 

I'm not saying there shouldn't be legion rules - minor cookies to encourage fluffy builds and let players of particular legions feel special, but you're not going to fix the underlying problem with our book - that it doesn't have enough options for customization of units or lists, and the options it does have are too often just plain bad or uninspired or even in some cases too good. trying to fix that with rules pasted on top of that inadequate foundation just isn't going to do it.

 

Legion rules are necessary for a good chaos marine ruleset so that players who like the very popular legion army themes will be happy. But you need a good foundation first.

Not meant to be argumentative, I was on hiatus from 40K when 3.5 was probably out, but can someone give a more detailed description of these lists or units that we can no longer build?

 

Thanks.

Night lords could sacrifice 2 heavy support slots for one extra fast attack slot, and we got stealth and night vision. All i want from any chaos dex is too have stealth and night vision and for raptors of all chaos armies.to get hit and run back.

[Slayer le Boucher]

World Eaters models with the mark of Khorne did have a simili-Fleet, where they where running faster in the shooting phase and assaulted in the same turn, they had Khornate Chainaxes, where the best save that a model could take Vs this weapon was 4+, so terminators who where striked by Khornate Chainaxes, only had a 4+ save.

 

Collar of Khorne wich allowed you to negate( DtW) Psy powers on 2+, and rendered the wearer immune to ID's made with Force weapons.

Axe of Khorne; Power weapon that when you made a 6 to hit, you could roll an extra attack, you could continue to roll as long as you kept getting 6's.

Khorne's Fury, +D3 A on the charge.

 

Ornemental Spikes, where a model with this could reroll 1 failed to hit roll, all termies had those.

 

Destructor of Khorne, worked mostly like the new one, but was for vehicles dedicated to Khorne only, on Dreads you counted the dread to be Blood Frenzied on 1 and 2's and allowed to reroll 1 failed to hit roll.

 

Power of the Machine Spirit equivalant for the Chaos Land raider, its was named Infernal engine.

 

Word Bearers could exchange 1 Elite, FA and HS slots for as much extra Troops slots, thus giving them much more slots for Deamons.

 

Iron Warriors could forgo 2 FA slots for 1 extra HS slot, they could take stolen basilisk and stolen Vindicators, they also din't have a 0-1 unit restriction on Oblits, their Characters could take Servo-arms and repair vehicles.

 

Alpha Legion could have Cultists units, Cultists, could choose 3 set of Veteran skills; Saboteurs; Infiltrate & Siege specialist( +1 Pen rolls VS Bunkers and tank traps, where fearless in Bunkers and Fortifications, activated mines in minefields only on 6's), Assassins; Infiltrate & Furious Charge or Infiltrate & Move through covers.

 

They could take grenades and meltabombs.

 All other moldes from an Alpha Legion army could be Infiltrators( PA models on foot only)

[NoLifeKing]

I find it funny… how the GW have managed to make the hatred and bitterness the veteran chaos players feel towards GW the dark mirror of what grim emotions the veterans of the long war feel towards imperium.

[Hellrender]

i do think we have to be careful with legion triats (or veteran skills, warband tactics, or whatever name you like to give the special rules that add flavour, diversity and flexibility to a list), that such rules not become to overpowered. I would love the rules, but i do not want like in 3,5 people play Iron Warriors because of amount of oblits, or like how now a lot have Taudar, or how previous people had long fang spam.

 

The rules need to be adding flavour without really adding too much power. These skills need to be free, while the true power needs to come from within the core rules. 

[Wayniac]

I find it funny… how the GW have managed to make the hatred and bitterness the veteran chaos players feel towards GW the dark mirror of what grim emotions the veterans of the long war feel towards imperium.

 

Funny thing is I could see them using that as an excuse, to get Chaos players into the proper mood...

[Scribe]

i do think we have to be careful with legion triats (or veteran skills, warband tactics, or whatever name you like to give the special rules that add flavour, diversity and flexibility to a list), that such rules not become to overpowered. I would love the rules, but i do not want like in 3,5 people play Iron Warriors because of amount of oblits, or like how now a lot have Taudar, or how previous people had long fang spam.

 

The rules need to be adding flavour without really adding too much power. These skills need to be free, while the true power needs to come from within the core rules. 

 

This is an unattainable pipe dream, and I dont mean to be insulting. I just would encourage you, or anyone else, to accept that there will almost always be a mathmatically, potentially meta driven, 'best'. It just cant be helped.

 

The problem I have with your last sentence, is that the core rules must be internally balanced or we get nowhere. When I look at the books of 6th, I see some with very poor internal balance, which skews the balance unfavorably when taken to the external.

 

Heldrakes.

[Trevak Dal]

You know, if they just consolidated Loyalists into one book and got rid of Chapter Traits, I'd be Okay personally.

[Hellrender]

 

i do think we have to be careful with legion triats (or veteran skills, warband tactics, or whatever name you like to give the special rules that add flavour, diversity and flexibility to a list), that such rules not become to overpowered. I would love the rules, but i do not want like in 3,5 people play Iron Warriors because of amount of oblits, or like how now a lot have Taudar, or how previous people had long fang spam.

 

The rules need to be adding flavour without really adding too much power. These skills need to be free, while the true power needs to come from within the core rules. 

 

This is an unattainable pipe dream, and I dont mean to be insulting. I just would encourage you, or anyone else, to accept that there will almost always be a mathmatically, potentially meta driven, 'best'. It just cant be helped.

 

The problem I have with your last sentence, is that the core rules must be internally balanced or we get nowhere. When I look at the books of 6th, I see some with very poor internal balance, which skews the balance unfavorably when taken to the external.

 

Heldrakes.

 

I agree completely. Mathematicly there will always be a better option. But i think its still wise to strive towards an as balanced approach as possible. And i think they did a decent enough job on the C:SM traits, as its not a complete handicap to choose Ultramarines over White scars, or Imperial Fists over Ultramarines.

 

And i definetely understand that core book (shooting over assault) and the balance between codeci (tau vs nids f.ex) and the internal codex balance (helldrakes) are far off. However, as we are talking about rules that are not in this book, and i doubt that they will come before chaos gets a new codex, i think its reasonable to assume we will have a new core set of rules by the time we get Legion (or warband) traits.

 

But some of the examples i have seen are just very OP and out of balance, screwing the internal balance of the CSM dex (as is) even more. Keep it reasonable, as the C:SM dex is (aside from Khan grav lists against armies with a better save, and certain CM combos with IH).

[Wade Garrett]

You know, if they just consolidated Loyalists into one book and got rid of Chapter Traits, I'd be Okay personally.

"If we can't have nice things, NO ONE GETS TO!" thundered Kor Phaeron, and all the Chaplains said "Amen!"

[Scribe]

You know, if they just consolidated Loyalists into one book and got rid of Chapter Traits, I'd be Okay personally.

 

This is where I was actually, right up until C:SM dropped in with Chapter Traits. Then it all went red, and several months later I had a full FW Night Lords army built (if not painted).