What's the big deal with legion rules? (lack there of)

[the jeske]

i do think we have to be careful with legion triats (or veteran skills, warband tactics, or whatever name you like to give the special rules that add flavour, diversity and flexibility to a list), that such rules not become to overpowered. I would love the rules, but i do not want like in 3,5 people play Iron Warriors because of amount of oblits, or like how now a lot have Taudar, or how previous people had long fang spam.

 

The rules need to be adding flavour without really adding too much power. These skills need to be free, while the true power needs to come from within the core rules. 

What do you think , which faction is going to have more fun this edition eldar players or chaos players ? And we kind of a already do play multiple oblits , it may not be the IW 9  and they may not be elite , but we are still spaming them .

 

Better to have a so called "op" codex and have fun , then have a one which isn't fun and hope that in 8-12 years GW is going to make one that your realy going to like.

[temneb]

What do you think , which faction is going to have more fun this edition eldar players or chaos players ? And we kind of a already do play multiple oblits , it may not be the IW 9 and they may not be elite , but we are still spaming them .

 

Better to have a so called "op" codex and have fun , then have a one which isn't fun and hope that in 8-12 years GW is going to make one that your realy going to like.

Soooo really you just want the best codex in the pile again? Give Tau their time in the sun, they had it rough for a very long time! 8-12 is about the time frame, SW sucked for the better part of a decade, spent 2 years on top and is sliding down the scale again. With the current rate of codex updates you've got more like 2 years till a new codex.

[Trevak Dal]

 

What do you think , which faction is going to have more fun this edition eldar players or chaos players ? And we kind of a already do play multiple oblits , it may not be the IW 9 and they may not be elite , but we are still spaming them .

 

Better to have a so called "op" codex and have fun , then have a one which isn't fun and hope that in 8-12 years GW is going to make one that your realy going to like.

Soooo really you just want the best codex in the pile again? Give Tau their time in the sun, they had it rough for a very long time! 8-12 is about the time frame, SW sucked for the better part of a decade, spent 2 years on top and is sliding down the scale again. With the current rate of codex updates you've got more like 2 years till a new codex.

 

Yeah, Tau were my first army, and I started in 5th edition.  I got trounced until I got mad and started playing with the Burlap Sack of Rage/Hate/Fury/Spite and killwhoring.  I found the game much more enjoyable that way-and I started winning.

[the jeske]

 

What do you think , which faction is going to have more fun this edition eldar players or chaos players ? And we kind of a already do play multiple oblits , it may not be the IW 9 and they may not be elite , but we are still spaming them .

 

Better to have a so called "op" codex and have fun , then have a one which isn't fun and hope that in 8-12 years GW is going to make one that your realy going to like.

Soooo really you just want the best codex in the pile again? Give Tau their time in the sun, they had it rough for a very long time! 8-12 is about the time frame, SW sucked for the better part of a decade, spent 2 years on top and is sliding down the scale again. With the current rate of codex updates you've got more like 2 years till a new codex.

yes dude everyone wants to have a good codex.SW did not suck for the better part of a decade . They got updated every time the SM codex was updated. AC got rending on hit ? SW could take multiple AC in a unit of WG. Drop pods came and SW were runing their plasma pistol+plasma gun GH , which were very good at short range double taping . Were they as good as circus or nidzilla ? of course not , but few armies were . Out of the whole 3.5 "best codex" demon bombs could deal with nidzilla and eldar were a huge problems to all builds. SoB and orks or DE sucked a decade SW did not . And even if not being circus level would mean SW sucked , at least the fluff SW had was the fluff SW players wanted . Ask around how many legion players like the fact that GW is pushing the legions no more fluff .

Also since 3.5 went down we had 2 editions . The next csm codex will be in 7th [or 6.5] , lets say 6th ends faster then other editions in a year and chaos again has the first codex in 7th/6.5th . This will give us 8 years of waiting for a codex and let us not forget that new 7th ed one will be build on top of the gav/kelly dex , so it may be as awesome as them too.

[Minsc]

Better to have a so called "op" codex and have fun , then have a one which isn't fun and hope that in 8-12 years GW is going to make one that your realy going to like.

 

As a long time Eldar and CSM player, I actually don't have fun with either rulesets right now. 

 

Eldar are powerful, but since they are so powerful they become "boring" to play. ("Boohoo" I know, but I can understand what some Tauplayers are saying about not enjoying their new codex.) Being OP doesn't necessarily mean that you will have fun (unless you're "that" sort of player...) 

 

CSM on the other hand, suffer from the opposite. They are weak, which means that they tend to be "frustrating" to play.

 

The difference between the two, is that I can choose to not field the most powerful Eldar-units to tone down the powerlevel of my lists (I own 3 Wave Serpents but I rarely use more than 1-2, and I own 1 Wraith Knight, which barely see's any use.), and have fun that way.

I can't however do anything about my CSM-lists, they are either bad or not-as-bad. (I only own 1 Heldrake.)

 

Right now I'm actually having the most fun with my Orks and my (new, but still) Salamanders. Being in the middle usually does it for me.

[brad2240]

Lack of Legion rules is a lack of identity. It's the lack of being able to point to an army and proudly saying "I play THEM. That's me." Which is something that every single loyalist player can do.

If that sounds like jealousy, it is. But its not hate, because I love me some Imperial Space Marines, too, and I love where they are in 6th edition. It's just supremely unfair that two armies both have such rich, shared history and one of them does a great job of translating that into the gameplay and the other does almost nothing at all.

I think people that are drawn by the fluff of the game want to be a part of it, to feel like their games are adding to the legacy. Legion rules did that, regardless of how minor the perks or how OP the lists were or were not. They let us interact with the universe in a way that doesn't feel possible with the bland, homogenized rules we've had since 4th edition. That lack of identity just creates a huge disconnect between the fluff and the game that's hard for some of us to overcome.

It's even worse for the cult legions, IMO. Maybe you can slap a Mark of Khorne on everything and feel like its the World Eaters, but personally I could never reconcile in my head the basic fluff discrepancies in the list, like why my basic troops were better than my Terminators, for example.

I actually sold off a WIP army for that very reason. Late in the life of 3.5 I fell in love with the Death Guard and started building a fluffy, all-footslogging DG force with a strong Terminator emphasis as my second CSM army. But when the 4th ed. book dropped and I saw there were no true Plague Marine Havocs or Plague Marine Terminators anymore it just killed all my enthusiasm for the project. I sold off all of it. Even now that Marks are back and the ridiculous Icon system of 4th is gone, it's not the same. Having my basic troops be tougher than the supposed elite of the army (even tougher than the Lord!) is a mental block I just can't get around. I envy anyone who can.

So that's why the lack of Legion rules is a big deal to me.

Now I'm coming back after a long absence from the game but I find myself in exactly the same place as when I left: I really want to put my CSM on the table again but the rules leave me floundering, feeling uninspired and wondering why I would rather play them than my loyalists.

[Hellios]

 

Better to have a so called "op" codex and have fun , then have a one which isn't fun and hope that in 8-12 years GW is going to make one that your realy going to like.

 

As a long time Eldar and CSM player, I actually don't have fun with either rulesets right now. 

 

Eldar are powerful, but since they are so powerful they become "boring" to play. ("Boohoo" I know, but I can understand what some Tauplayers are saying about not enjoying their new codex.) Being OP doesn't necessarily mean that you will have fun (unless you're "that" sort of player...) 

 

CSM on the other hand, suffer from the opposite. They are weak, which means that they tend to be "frustrating" to play.

 

I don't think the power-level in the Eldar codex is that bad... It depends where you set the level... Tau and Eldar seem to be on par with each other. Are they too strong, or are other codices too weak? I don't know. My biggest problem with the eldar codex is internal balance (which is my fear for a great chaos codex without some kind of optional restrictions). They solved some problems... Fire Dragons were far too cheap in the last codex...  That extra 6pts makes me think about taking them now. Howling Banshees on the other hand keep on going downhill (I have 60 of them, so this kinda makes me feel sad...), some of these come from their rules, and others from changes to the core rulebook.... The big 2 being AP3, and no grenade type thingy... Make the banshee mask let them strike first if they charge, and give them power weapons... and I'd start taking them again... BWAHAHAHA 2nd edition style Banshees with Power Axes!

 

My favourite codex is the Dark Eldar codex... It isn't the most powerful, but I feel  it is fairly well balanced wiht most units worth some consideration;except for 2 units (including a character) which don't really work at all.

 

Chaos wasn't in the position of the DE... People have always played Chaos... But I feel that the DE make over would be a good thing for Chaos.

[Scribe]

I love the DE book, but to that for Chaos would be super hard I think, while retaining (or adding back) the history and feel of the army. I played DE for a good year or so after release, and enjoyed every game.

 

Chaos...well, its a good thing I enjoy being angry. :p

[Hellios]

I love the DE book, but to that for Chaos would be super hard I think, while retaining (or adding back) the history and feel of the army. I played DE for a good year or so after release, and enjoyed every game.

Chaos...well, its a good thing I enjoy being angry.

I don't mean the lore as much, but the DE codex felt like a new codex... Not a new version of the old one. I think GW really needs to take another path with the CSM codex. Even if the path is a bit like 3.5... or the really old crazy stuff... before 40K became what we know now.

[Scribe]

What I have argued in the past, is a complete departure from CSM, unfortunately most people dont rebuy armies constantly, and would rage quit.

[Terrified Templar]

I really hope that things change for you guys, for the better that is. As a loyalist player I would still really like to see rules like the Legion rules of yore come back cause it can open a lot of possibilities not just for you guys but variations of this for a lot of other dexes. Orks are different as well, Bad Moons are different from Blood Axes and they are different from Snakebites so why not represent that difference on the tabletop? The 0-1 restriction should come back as well for some units (like riptides). Encourage diversity instead of spamming. Maybe GW figures that encouraging spamming of uber-powered units would boost their sales (and for some products is has) but in the long run encouraging diversity would be better for sales but I doubt that GW will realize that anytime soon if at all. Still I can dream I guess. Hope you guys get a better dex in the future though, til then just keep fighting like how you all have been doing for the past 10,000 years :).

[brad2240]

I agree, 0-1 should be a thing again. But it won't, for the same reason we'll never see anything like the 3.5 Legion rules again: GW isn't going to put in rules-imposed limits on what models a player can buy for his army. It's counter-productive to their goal of selling as many models as possible.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

0-1 restrictions probably aren't coming back any time soon.  This is anecdotal and I can't remember the source, but I read a comment or article somewhere where someone asked one of the designers (Alessio?  Gav?) of the Gavdex why they didn't include a 0-1 restriction on the Daemon Prince, since it was so ridiculously good for its points.  The response was something along the lines of, "We didn't think we needed to.  Why would anyone take more than one?"

 

And that was two editions ago.

[the jeske]

0-1 also may limit the number of units people may buy . Not many non IW players had more then 3 oblits when gav dex came .

[Sception]

0-1 restrictions probably aren't coming back any time soon.  This is anecdotal and I can't remember the source, but I read a comment or article somewhere where someone asked one of the designers (Alessio?  Gav?) of the Gavdex why they didn't include a 0-1 restriction on the Daemon Prince, since it was so ridiculously good for its points.  The response was something along the lines of, "We didn't think we needed to.  Why would anyone take more than one?"

 

And that was two editions ago.

 

That was in reference to eldar falcons in 4th ed, which, as skimmers, could only be glanced if they moved at all, had upgrades to effectively nullify all results on the glancing damage table short of outright wrecking it (ie, needed to roll a 6), and another upgrade that forced enemies to roll 2d6 and take the lowest when rolling for vehicle damage results, resulting in a tank that, should you actually hit it and meet or beat the armor, still shrugged of the shot 35/36 times.  It had decent guns, too, and could transport units for scoring or to drop off fire dragons for melta-death.

 

It was, to be frank, pretty darn broken, and many feel it motivated a number of the changes to skimmer and vehicle damage rules in 5th edition.  When asked about it after it had been tearing up the tournament scene for a while, the codex author was quoted as saying "We never thought people might take more than one".

 

 

Anyway, yeah, I don't see 0-1 restrictions coming back any time soon, so lifting them is no longer an option for characterizing subfactions.  Remaining tools are:

 

adding restrictions to prevent the use of particular units or force the use of particular upgrades (ie: black legion forced to buy vets, presumably subrules for cult forces would, if they were ever introduced, require purchase of their particular mark / forbid units that come with other marks, etc).

 

shifting the place of units in the force org (ie: black legion troop chosen, crimson slaughter troop possessed.  One could imagine troop havocs or dreads for iron warriors, troop bikes or raptors for night lords, etc)

 

addition of extra special rules: seems unlikely if it doesn't come with an added cost, but remains a possibility, particularly for something of minimal value (night vision on night lords, for instance)

 

replacement of existing special rules: see chapter tactics subbing out some rules for others.  One could imagine a situation where a particular legion might have atypical benefits for the veterans of the long war rule, for instance.  Unfortunately, that rule includes a leadership bump for vets, and dropping that doesn't make much sense for most legions, apart from maybe night lords, and hatred(loyalists), and dropping that doesn't make sense for any chaos marines, frankly it probably should have been an innate faction rule for chaos marine units (not dark mech or cultist) units.

 

Honestly, I think a combination of appropriate requirements & restrictions and replacement rules for the vet upgrade would be the most natural way to try and get chaos legion rules put together - it would certainly be the least obtrusive way.  But to do that, we'd need a revision of the vet rule itself, shifting hatred of loyalists to a general faction rule, and replacing it with some other default vet ability to sub out.  It also might make sense to remove the normal, mutable option for vets from particular units &  characters & replace it with the abilities conferred by vets of that legion (ie, Khârn and maybe Berzerker squads would have the vet abilities of World Eaters even when taken in a Black Legion army; dark apostles might have the vet abilities associated with word bearers even when taken in an Alpha Legion list, etc).

 

 

You also might decouple such abilities from the names of the specific legions, to make it clear that they could also be used by homebrew or post-heresy warbands who fight in that style even if they aren't directly associated or descended from a particular legion, or that a warband of former members of one legion who had come to fight in the style of another legion might develop their veterans according to their new disposition, ie a former Iron Warriors warband that had joined the black legion might use the iron warriors traits if that's still how they fight, or they might use the black legion traits if they had adopted the black's combat style.

 

Or maybe not, since that might get confusing for your opponent.

[Slayer le Boucher]

The fact that they say" We never thought that people would take more then 1" is enough proof to me that the do not test enough their Codexes.

 

Those kind of silly things is the very first thing people notice and say" i'm gonna take 4-5 of those and wrek it"

 

I mean...look at the darn Wave Serpent...

 

Its typically the kind of things that when they made the test game they where like" okay lest take 1 Waveserpet, one Fireprism and 1 other thing, with 2 Squads of Guardians, 1 squad of Spiders and 1 squad of Banshees and see how all of this rolls"...

 

So they use a "jak of all trade" kinda list during their test, but they never think" well lets try a spam list of this or that unit to see what we need to fix" and thats whats mind boggling and make you doubt that the same guys who make this game, knows how to play it!!!

 

Its like a guy designing and manufacturing a pocket gatling gun that shoots explosive harpoons, and when someone kills 50 people in a mall with 2 of those he answer" but we never thought that someone would use it to shoot poeple with..."...

 

Morons, that what they are...,and the latest rumors about a payable dataslate with Faq/fix for the Chariot of Tzeentch, just proofs it to me, they are a bunch of soft brains douches...

[Rain]

It's all just business. They want to keep increasing the power level because people will jump on the bandwagon and buy up whatever is new and broken. Same reason the stupid allies rules got added, so people can buy broken units from outside their codex if they don't want to take the plunge into a full broken army. Also I guess they want to appeal to kids more, hence the whole giant mechs and stupid ad hoc factions like "Crimson Slaughter". Because apparently superhumans with chainsaw swords somehow don't appeal to young boys anymore, Gods I'm 25 and I'm already a rickety crumudgeon. 25 must be the new 30.

 

Honestly I think they are shooting themselves in the foot hard by neglecting older long time fans with comparatively large amounts of disposable income, but that's their own deal.

[Hellios]

The thing is... not all of the 'spam' armies are unfluffy. An Eldar army mainly consisting of Guardians which may be mounted on Jetbikes, or in Wave Serpents is totally fluffy. Hell, pretty much any Eldar unit in a Wave Serpent is fluffy, with the exception of things like Warp Spiders, and Swooping Hawks... Dark Reapers? Rhinos for Dev squads are fluffy, not that people would take them that often. Assault marines often won't have one... because they are normally equipped with jump-packs... which makes them like Warp Spiders and friends.

 

GW don't care about the rules at best, or they may be making poor rules on purpose, as a tool for sales, which I guess would be the worst case scenario.