Centurion

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd like to start a discussion about my guilty little secret favourite, the Space Marine Centurions.

 

I <3 these guys.  I was an instant convert to Assault Centurion, but am now more drawn to Grave Centurion.

 

How do the Grey Knights best utilise Space Marine Centurion?

 

Red Hunters?  But do we really need them, what do they bring?  Battle Brothers?  Only usefulll if we're adding ICs to them, and we can do that with Codex: Inquision (becuase all you'd want to add are Divination Inquisitors).

 

Would another Codex Chapter be better?

 

How do we support them?  They're expensive, and you'd want them to take the role our GKT currently hold, midfield dominence.  So are we looking at henchmen to flesh out our numbers?

 

Consider a unit that is;

 

Centurion x3, Grav Cannon x3, Hurricane Bolter x3 (250)

OM Inquisitor, TDA, Psycannon, PML1 (110)

 

That's 15 Grav, 9/18 Bolter and 4 Psycannon shots.  All Twin-Linked, most at 24" range, and the Gravs reroll To-Wound rolls.

 

Ouch!

[Kilofix]

Some comments below but take it with a grain of salt as I'm only just starting GK:

 

1. You could technically take some combination of GK + Red Hunters + ID. The new FW FAQ Makes GK and RH Battle Brothers as long as there's a Inquisitor HQ.

 

2. GKSS (Purifier even) would certainly do better than Centurions against Daemons, Orks, Tyranids, etc. Then again, GKSS would have more problems with like a Heldrake. So maybe a mix is in order?

 

3. I use Henchmen primarily for Melta. But then again with RH - you can Drop Pod (Stern) Marines with Melta for Turn 1 anti-armor

 

4. Thunderfire Gun from the Red Hunters can also be helpful

 

5. RH's Skyfire, Monster Hunter or Tank Hunter Chapter Tactics can surprise an opponent

 

 

My ideal list would have some combination of the following but I still have to recheck FOC and points:

 

OM TDA, Psycannon + Skulls

Crowe

Purifiers - for anti-mob

Vindicare

 

RH Lib

RH Drop-Pod Tacs - for anti-armor

RH LasCannon Dreds - for anti-armor (can also Skyfire with ChapTac)

RH Cents - for anti-MEQ

 

Cotaez

Fill the rest out with Henchmen in Chimeras (all Bolter with Psybolt)

[Gentlemanloser]

Why the Red Hunters?

 

What do they give as Battle Brothers that makes them the go to choice over another Marine Chapter?

[Kilofix]

Why the Red Hunters?

 

What do they give as Battle Brothers that makes them the go to choice over another Marine Chapter?

 

With an Inquisitor, they can be Battle Brothers to GKs as opposed to just AoC.

 

Their own Chapter Tactics is situational but could be cool:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/FWchaptertactics-v2.pdf

 

And, because of fluff.

[Gentlemanloser]

But what does being a BB over an AoC actually do for your list?

[Ania Redfang]

But what does being a BB over an AoC actually do for your list?

 

You can join their units with our psykers and use buffs on them. For instance I rolled ignores cover and prescience on Coteaz today and was able to rinse units and super heavies alike with Grav Cannons.

[IK Viper]

I think he knows that.  His point is that Codex inquisition gives an Space Marine Chapter access to Inquisitors if thy want it.  So why not look at other chapters that can bring more cool stuff to the table (literally).  Since there are few times when GK Charactors really want/need to join a SM unit.  Not much to gain there.

 

I don't use Centurions b/c I don;t have them and they are slow, I like the Bikes better myself.  I have been running White Scar CT's marines as a way of bringing in Scouting Tactical Squads, Scouting/Scoring Grav. Bikes, and acces to alot of the SM utility units like sternguard, landspeeders, thunderfire cannons etc. The main thing they bring is conventional AP2, without needing to pray for 6's and cheaper powerarmoured scorring units.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I think he knows that.  His point is that Codex inquisition gives an
Space Marine Chapter access to Inquisitors if thy want it.  So why not
look at other chapters that can bring more cool stuff to the table
(literally).  Since there are few times when GK Charactors really
want/need to join a SM unit.  Not much to gain there.

 

:)

 

It seems obvious to me that Ward designed our Dex with AoC allies already in mind.  We really don't gain much from Battle Brothers.  And what we would have (Coteaz buffing other units) can be provided now by Codex: Inquisition, to a *much* larger range of allies.

 

You want Coteaz to IBEY and TL some Dev Cents?  Take C:I Coteaz and attach me to some IF Cents.

[Kilofix]

Sorry, I misunderstood the earlier question.

 

Inq detachments can already BB most other Imperium so that's nothing new.

 

But GK ICs and Libs can join RH units and vice versa that make for some interesting combinations that's all.

 

Not that they are particularly more powerful than GKs simply allying another SM through AoC. Its just another option that you can't otherwise do with GK and other SMs.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I also think Red Hunters have a Chapter Tactic that you ignore too easily, GL. Free special rules on all your units is not to be discounted, even something like Turn 2 Interceptor Centurions is a big deal. Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter can be incredibly potent in some matchups. 

 

None of the other Marine Chapter Tactics are especially relevant to us. Imperial Fists have a pretty cool one, but it favours Devastator spam more than Centurion spam. Seeing as the thread is about Centurions, Red Hunters being able to switch up their free special rule every game is pretty handy. 

 

Also, with regards to Coteaz, the reason I prefer Red Hunters is that it's cleaner. I don't have to take the Inquisition version of Coteaz (which doesn't let me fulfill mandatory Troops with Henchmen). I know we're used to AoC and Knights are designed to be self-sufficient, but lets at least try BB out before discounting it entirely. I still don't think we've found all the combos. 

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't disagree with the sentiment, I have trouble putting it into practice.

 

Really, do I want to add a GKGM to a Red Hunter unit?  Do I really need to be able to cast a Libby's powers on the same?

 

Is there a Red Hunter IC to attach to any of mine?

 

Or would I just be using Coteaz and an Inquisitior to do this anyway?

 

What benefit do we as the GK have in practice from using Red Hunter Centurion over say Iron Hands (for giving the Sarge IWND and the Squad FnP)?

 

 

I also think Red Hunters have a Chapter Tactic that you ignore too easily, GL. Free special rules on all your units is not to be discounted, even something like Turn 2 Interceptor Centurions is a big deal. Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter can be incredibly potent in some matchups.

 

None of the other Marine Chapter Tactics are especially relevant to us. Imperial Fists have a pretty cool one, but it favours Devastator spam more than Centurion spam. Seeing as the thread is about Centurions, Red Hunters being able to switch up their free special rule every game is pretty handy.

 

Also, with regards to Coteaz, the reason I prefer Red Hunters is that it's cleaner. I don't have to take the Inquisition version of Coteaz (which doesn't let me fulfill mandatory Troops with Henchmen). I know we're used to AoC and Knights are designed to be self-sufficient, but lets at least try BB out before discounting it entirely. I still don't think we've found all the combos.

 

Ninja'd, but this is the post I'm looking for.

 

More of these please! :D

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Really, do I want to add a GKGM to a Red Hunter unit?  Do I really need to be able to cast a Libby's powers on the same?

 

He's a pretty nice attachment to a Dev Centurion unit, the more I think about it. He adds a lot of melee presence they otherwise lack, he wants to be on-table Turn 1 to use 'Psychic Communion' but he'll be alone or only attached to easily-murdered Henchmen. He's a 3-wound IC with T5 from them, and a 4+ invul. Not as good at tanking as the RH Terminator Libby, but 'Communion' will be more relevant in a Reserve heavy list than say Biomancy/Telepathy buffs from the RH LIbby. 

 

 

Is there a Red Hunter IC to attach to any of mine?

 

Red Hunter Terminator Libby is a great attachment to Paladins, Purifiers and Strike squads. Even without 'Endurance', he's a 3+ invul tank to stick out the front, plus he brings a S5 force axe ('Hammerhand' from the squad will affect him as well) and essentially the statline of a Paladin to the unit. 'Endurance' makes Paladins viable again, and FNP is nice on Purifiers or Strikes looking to survive a Riptide or similar. 

 

 

What benefit do we as the GK have in practice from using Red Hunter Centurion over say Iron Hands (for giving the Sarge IWND and the Squad FnP)?

 

Iron Hands don't bring anything we care about, that RH don't already have access to. Also, RH gets free special rules on a turn of your choice, Iron Hands are mostly about resiliance for themselves and their vehicles. 

 

[Gentlemanloser]

Now if a GKGM could use TGS on BB allies, it would be a whole 'nother ballgame. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Now if a GKGM could use TGS on BB allies, it would be a whole 'nother ballgame.

That was a fun 6 months haha, before the FAQ. Black Templars in tournaments with us...I'll never forget.

[Kilofix]

GKGM plus RH Cents - allows Wound rerolls of 1 (so against MEQ you only not would on 2) or makes Cents scoring or makes Cents scouts.

 

GKLib plus RH Cents for MoT +D6 Armor Pen.

 

RH Libby gives GKNDK Endurance or Telekine Dome or Invisibility.

 

GK Deep Striking NDK into RH Drop Pod Locator Beacon or RH Scout Squad Homer.

 

Etc.

[Gentlemanloser]

GKGM plus RH Cents - allows Wound rerolls of 1 (so against MEQ you only not would on 2) or makes Cents scoring or makes Cents scouts.

 

Not possible.

 

Grav Amps give a reroll anyway.  And you can't use TGS on anything outside C:GK.

 

 

GKLib plus RH Cents for MoT +D6 Armor Pen.

 

Might of Titan is solid.  I'm not sure Cents are the right place for it though.  Assault ones don't need it, and you don't want Devs to be caught in CC.

 

 

RH Libby gives GKNDK Endurance or Telekine Dome or Invisibility.

 

I'll hold my hands up.  I'm not familiar with the disciplines Marines can access.  Only Divination.  Can these be used on targets that aren't the Libby's squad?

 

 

GK Deep Striking NDK into RH Drop Pod Locator Beacon or RH Scout Squad Homer.

 

Yes!

 

These sort of tactics.

 

How best to use SM TH or rather Locator Beacons?

 

Edit;

 

People bemaon Centurions lack of speed (which I find strange, they're just as fast as any other Infantry Unit.  Slow and purposeful in 6th no longer reduces movement speed).

 

Is there anyway we could utilise the GK dex to make them faster?

 

The only thing that springs to mind is a GK Librarian using "The Summoning" on them.

 

We'd have to utilse Locator Beacons somehow to make it more stable.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

How best to use SM TH or rather Locator Beacons?

 

Use an empty drop pod, give it a locator beacon. Fire it where you want things to land. Mitebgud. 

 

 

The only thing that springs to mind is a GK Librarian using "The Summoning" on them.

 

It's awkward. I mean, you probably need to Raven him up (Derpstriking is risky as hell, maybe Mordrak?), and even then thanks to GW being morons the teleport homer doesn't prevent scatter on them. 

[Gentlemanloser]

True dat.

 

Hmm.  A 45 point (Is it?  Don't worry, not asking for points! :P) Locator Beacon that could be destroyed might be useful.

 

More survivable than a Servo Skull.

 

Get three Pods with these (Didn't realise you could purchase LB's for SM pobs, have to go back and relook at the entry!), drop two turn 1, turn 2+ DS your Troops off them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Hmm. A 45 point (Is it? Don't worry, not asking for points! ) Locator Beacon that could be destroyed might be useful.

More survivable than a Servo Skull.

Get three Pods with these (Didn't realise you could purchase LB's for SM pobs, have to go back and relook at the entry!), drop two turn 1, turn 2+ DS your Troops off them.

Yeah, and unlike a servo-skull, the enemy can't just move into range and make it evaporate, they have to kill an AV12 3-HP vehicle first. Which by definition is a waste of time, as all it can offer offensively is a storm bolter (no one takes the terrible missile launcher upgrade).

The original intention is so SM can land Sternguard/Tacs in the enemy's face Turn 1, and then land Terminators in support of them Turn 2/3. I'm fairly certain SM beacons and teleport homers don't restrict friendlies from landing off them, unlike ours. Although they still require beacons for anyone not in Terminator armour.