Signs that Great Crusade is longer than 200 years?

[depthcharge12]

So I believe it was originally said that from the inception of the Great Crusade till it's ending with Isstvaan/Davin was slightly more than 200 years.

 

Now, I am of the opinion that it must've been much longer than that because the Emperor was still finding all the Primarchs. Given between 50 and 100 years that most of the primarchs had to actually crusade, it is unbelievable that they would've made the progress that they did in such a relatively short amount of time, considering the length of intergalactic travel and conquest.

 

 

Here's something I just found (quote) from Wolf of Ash and flame from Sejanus:

 

“Almost two hundred years since leaving Cthonia, and Ezekyle still held onto a heritage best left in the past.”

 

 

 

Although it is understood that the Luna wolves may have participated in the earliest conquests, Abaddon was of Cthonia and it is my understanding that the Terran and Solar wars were fought before even finding Cthonia. So since ABADDONS inception, it's been almost 200 years of Crusade, and this is years waaaaay before Ullanor. Don't quote me but iirc then isstvaan is at least 50 years after Ullanor.

 

 

Now I'm guessing that the new timeline will be somewhere between 300-350 years between leaving the Sol system and Isstvaan, when the Heresy begins.

 

 

Thoughts? Comments?

 

 

 

 

Excerpt From: McNeill, Graham. “The Wolf of Ash and Fire.” Black Library, 2014-03. iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

[Adra'Melek]

I think Cthonia was 'harvested' for recruits before the great crusade started. It was close enough that it was still accessible during the age of strife.

[Perrin]

Yep, Cthonia was close enough to Terra that they could reach it with sub-light I think. Also Ullanor wasn't 50 years before Isstvaan, it was around 5.

 

Lexicanum has the GC starting in 801.M30, Cthonia at around 805.M30, Ullanor at 000.M31 and Isstvaan at 005.M31, so 204 years exactly.

 

The sources for the dates are the early HH books and the 6th Edition rule book so some dates may have changed.

[Veteran Sergeant]

Not to mention the Legions were still campaigning before the Primarchs were found. Besides, primarchs like Alpharius and Lorgar only made their Legions less efficient. Taking forever to find them was probably a good thing. ;)

[spu00sed]

I would like the GC to be longer, at least500 to 1000 years. The crusade conquered most of the galaxy, even with that e resources available that is very hard to do. Especially when we Herat so many stories of primarchs and legions fighting together for prolonged peorpds.

 

The emperor just didn't have the man power to do it in 200.

 

I also find it more tragic.

 

"We spend the better part of a millennium finding our lost brethren amongst the stars, the fracture fraternity of humanity, scattered in old night. We brought them back into the fold, making the galaxy a better place for all of us, following the emperors vision. and Horus tore it down in 5 years"

 

Edit: typo of GC into GCSE, damn autocorrect

[Raulmichile]

Yeah, I agree.

 

Some time ago I posted here my calculations about the time the Imperium had to take in conquering each world in order to acomplish the task in 200 years. The result was one month or so if I remember correctly. To me it is improbable even more now considering what we know after the HH series came out.

[Perrin]

Going by the old, slightly vague fluff that a company (100) of Space Marines could conquer a planet in a few days, I think the current timescale is fine. The Legions were bigger, the marines back then were stronger, they had better technology and more resources at hand.

 

Think of Earth at our current level of technology. How long do you think it would take a Legion detachment of around, say 20,000, to conquer us? Then add in orbital bombardment, Titans, AdMech, Imperial Army, drop pod assault and possibly a Primarch. I think we'd be lucky if we lasted a week. Then they leave behind a human garrison and the usual admin and orators to convert the populace and set up the planetary government, then off they go to the next planet.

 

Even a planet with the same level of technology as the Imperium would struggle against any sizeable force, as the fluff has shown. Sixty-Three-Nineteen had a technology level somewhere between us and the Imperium, was conquered in less than a year, and that was only because the Luna Wolves assumed the Imperial Army elements could mop up the rest of the resistance.

 

Horus/Abaddon led the spear-tip drop-pod assault to destroy the "Emperor", that battle took what, a few hours? The Whisperheads held out for a few months against Imperial Army, but fell in a few hours when Loken and his company attacked.

 

If they had peacefully joined the Imperium when Horus sent ambassadors to them then the compliance would have been sorted within days and the Legion could move on.

[FashaTheDog]

I thought I remembered reading somewhere that it was roughly a quarter of a millennium, but I couldn't tell you where I saw that.  Now as to the calculation that it would take an average of a month a world, I would actually say that is reasonable considering the number of worlds that would choose compliance or would take that amount of time or less to bring to compliance would offset those worlds that would need more than a month to bring to compliance. 

 

I would imagine that a great many worlds would have been quite happy to hop on the Imperium bandwagon after the terrors of Old Night and would desperately embrace the idea of a new human empire that will protect them and set them on the path to return to the Dark Age of Technology.  A good example is that one world the Word Bearers came across that had been the very model of Lorgar's ideal Imperial world...only the Legion had something of a change of faith prior to discovering it. These compliance ready worlds might only need a little guidance to tow the official line, guidance which the Imperial Army and various civil officials could provide in lieu of the Legions, meaning the Legion need only show up state their intention and let the show of their might do all the bargaining then head off to new worlds.

[Hyaenidae]

I'd have to ask Darth Potato and M2C, but if I remember correctly, Laurie Golding posted a timetable on a different forum he frequents that was vastly different than what we knew, including the Unification Wars taking close on to 500 years total, the Great Crusade being longer, and even the Siege of the Emperor's palace being longer.

 

I'll see if those guys might have a link.

[Ordo Machinum]

I'd have to ask Darth Potato and M2C, but if I remember correctly, Laurie Golding posted a timetable on a different forum he frequents that was vastly different than what we knew, including the Unification Wars taking close on to 500 years total, the Great Crusade being longer, and even the Siege of the Emperor's palace being longer.

 

I'll see if those guys might have a link.

Is it this one? 

[Perrin]

 

I'd have to ask Darth Potato and M2C, but if I remember correctly, Laurie Golding posted a timetable on a different forum he frequents that was vastly different than what we knew, including the Unification Wars taking close on to 500 years total, the Great Crusade being longer, and even the Siege of the Emperor's palace being longer.

 

I'll see if those guys might have a link.

Is it this one? 

 

That one says "Human worlds reunited by the Emperor in a Great Crusade that lasts for two

hundred years..." and has no specific dates for anything.

 

The Age of Technology would be an awesome era to explore, maybe through Perpetual characters or flashbacks. It all sounds very Mass Effect-y.

 

Am I right in thinking the Stone Men are clones or a worker/slave caste and the Golden Race are the ancestors of current 30/40k humanity? It says the Golden Race created the Stone Men, who explored the universe for the Golden Race, using the Iron Men (AI).

[Hyaenidae]

 

I'd have to ask Darth Potato and M2C, but if I remember correctly, Laurie Golding posted a timetable on a different forum he frequents that was vastly different than what we knew, including the Unification Wars taking close on to 500 years total, the Great Crusade being longer, and even the Siege of the Emperor's palace being longer.

 

I'll see if those guys might have a link.

Is it this one? 

Nah, 'fraid not. I'll hunt it down after work.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah i would figure that the battles wouldn't take too long, but then bumping into things like the Laer, green skins, Eldar, that dude who rebelled would take upwards of a week or more.

 

 

In fear to tread I believe the campaign (admittedly would've been shorter if not for AL shenanigans) against the orks hiding in the asteroids from Ullanor took somewhere around a month or two...I'll have to check.

 

 

Now I'm not saying that the whole Great Crusade took something like 500 years, but it needs to be longer than 200 if we are to believe that the captains/chapter masters/etc are grizzled veterans of numerous battles. The warp is too variable to allow pretty much the entire conquest of the galaxy within 200 years. How about the length of time the primarchs spent on Terra to learn from the Emps, meet each other, and do the other things like climb that tower?

 

 

Plus, when does the Great crusade *officially* start? If Horus was there since the launch, who else was? Ferrus, Russ, and Fulgrim were the first found.

 

I'm having a hard time believing that 200 years is enough still

[endless]

I would like the GCSE to be longer, at least500 to 1000 years. The crusade conquered most of the galaxy, even with that e resources available that is very hard to do. Especially when we Herat so many stories of primarchs and legions fighting together for prolonged peorpds.

 

The emperor just didn't have the man power to do it in 200.

 

I also find it more tragic.

 

"We spend the better part of a millennium finding our lost brethren amongst the stars, the fracture fraternity of humanity, scattered in old night. We brought them back into the fold, making the galaxy a better place for all of us, following the emperors vision. and Horus tore it down in 5 years"

 

You're Michael Gove, aren't you?

[Perrin]

@endless I wish I could like that post more than once

@1000heathens Is this the timeline thread? http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=213

That timeline has the GC starting at 798.M30, Cthonia found at ~801.M30, Alpharius found at ~981.M30, Ullanor Triumph at 000.M31, Isstvaan III at 005-6.M31, Isstvaan V mid-006.M31, The Siege begins, ends and the Scouring begins in 014.M31.

GC length from start to Isstvaan III as 207 years.

LG also mentions that the Unification Wars include conquering the Solar System, and that the GC doesn't start until Imperial forces move out of Sol. Doesn't mention any timescales though.

[spu00sed]

Endless

 

I'm actually a teacher, this typo and your comment has made my week.

 

Thank you.

 

Ps the four lords of the warp can have Gove

[SteelPaladin]

It do like that now the Great Crusade does not start until after the entire Sol system is won. I always thought it made little sense for the GC to start right after the unification of Terra. Now there is time for cool stuff to happen with the Legions before they set out to find their Primarchs.

[FashaTheDog]

Considering Ruinous Powers' plan, they might have expedited Warp travel so the Emperor could hurry up and lock himself in the Imperial basement and let the Four get on with usurping the Imperium for Chaos.  If fleets were actually leaving the Warp a few hours or perhaps days before they entered it on a regular basis, think of all the time gained from traveling.  Not saying that it happened, but it could add to that tenuous suspension of disbelief for a two century galaxy conquering that you are looking for.

[endless]

Endless

 

I'm actually a teacher, this typo and your comment has made my week.

 

Thank you.

 

Ps the four lords of the warp can have Gove

We fight the ruinous powers, we are humanity's last defense, we know no fear.

 

(keep smiling baby!)

[Kol Saresk]

As far as I know, the Unification Wars of the entire Sol system are, I think Laurie Goulding said something like around a thousand years. Mostly because it seems it was done in stages and involved the building of fleets and so on.

 

But then you get the Great Crusade, which was ho knows how many fleets going off in who knows how many directions. And whenever those fleets find a world with its own fleets that joins voluntarily, you get at least two fleets heading into two different directions. And that's not counting the numbers of times these fleets intersect, are redirected, etc. It also doesn't count the numbers of times a fleet will approach an area of space and deem it too dangerous to bring into Compliance and just skip it.

 

So yes, there is a lot of territory to cover. But between skipping a lot, missing a lot due to warp travel and "finding of fleets", what we are really seeing isn't "The Crusade is almost over; the galaxy is conquered" but rather "The Crusade i almost over; soon it will be time to cover the holes we missed."

[Conn Eremon]

Personally, I've always liked the idea that the Unification Wars were just a small bit of time before the Great Crusade, and that the whole thing was about 250 years. Any longer just seemed to really be stretching it. The Horus Heresy books kind of show it that way, too. In every description of the Unification Wars I've read so far, the Emperor is seen as an upstart Warlord who is far more successful than his rivals are expecting.

 

The idea that it might have lasted a millennia really goes against that in my mind. That's forever. The Emperor is not an upstart of surprising success if it takes him generations to get it done. At that point, he's an immortal slowly consuming the earth. If Genghis Khan was still conquering the earth to this very day, would we be calling him an upstart Warlord? Would we consider him surprisingly successful?

[Kol Saresk]

Well he did have to build entire fleets and each ship takes like ten years. At least.

[Conn Eremon]

No, that part I get. The fact that he had to wait to actually have ships, and that there was a pause between Unification and Crusade.

 

But y'know, probably not that long. I mean, he had to have enough from the start, say the ships he used to get off Terra, move around Sol, taken from conquered factions, etc, to at least send out one fleet past Sol. Especially to worlds like Cthonia, who supposedly had contact with Terra all throughout the Long Night, among other Proximal worlds. And once that fleet has left, welp. That's the moment the Great Crusade started. Probably not as Great yet, but a Crusade nonetheless.

 

I don't see it as this intense, immense explosion of ships that fired out of Sol like some kid firing an AA-12 with infinite ammo cheats. It probably began with a trickle, like that first two or three fleets that left Sol, that slowly began to build as the Emperor made more ships, found more worlds with ships, more shipwrights/forges to build ships, until by the end of it the galaxy looked like the backdrop of some big fireworks display that exploded into more fireworks.

 

So I can see this pause before the Great Crusade kicks off after the Unification Wars. I don't see it being very long, comparatively speaking. Ten, fifteen years, max? If the Emperor wanted to keep his ships close until he had a replacement fleet on hand? Or maybe to patrol and hold Sol, if it wasn't solidly his yet, or to defend Sol against Xenos raiders, since those hadn't been taught to fear Mankind yet.

 

But the Unification Wars itself, I can't see lasting very long either. Maybe fifty years to close it? And I can see a pause between conquering Terra and conquering the Sol System. Probably a much shorter one, though.

[Kol Saresk]

Maybe. But he also had to wait to create the first Legions before he could finish conquering just Terra though, remember> So the pauses are all dependent on just how long it takes for all of these things to get done.

[Perrin]

It would have taken time to create the Thunder Warriors, then the Custodes, then the Primarchs, then the Legions as well. Considering how absorbed the Emperor was with the Webway project, I can't see him doing all of these things alongside conquering the Sol system.

 

We know the Thunder Warriors were used to conquer Earth, and that some of the early Legions also fought on Earth, and that the Custodes were created before the Primarch project, and before the Legions, so I would guess that the Thunder Warriors were created, sent to conquer Earth, then the Custodes, then the Primarch Project, then the early Legions finished the job of conquering Earth after the Thunder Warriors melted or whatever they were designed to eventually do.

 

Like Cormac said, a pause between conquering Terra and conquering the rest of Sol to finish up his genetic experiments.