Signs that Great Crusade is longer than 200 years?

[Conn Eremon]

Maybe. But he also had to wait to create the first Legions before he could finish conquering just Terra though, remember> So the pauses are all dependent on just how long it takes for all of these things to get done.

Or if they were actual pauses and not something being done in parallel. His armies, for instance, don't need to stop conquering just because the Emperor is making Marines.

[Kol Saresk]

But then who would he trust to lead his armies? Didn't he create the Primarchs because he didn't trust some man(or men) to be the generals of his gene-enhanced warriors?

[depthcharge12]

I guess what I had problems with was understanding that there was a gap of time between the unification wars and the Great crusade.

 

 

The Emperor would have to create the astartes and primarchs all the while and that would take a considerable amount of time and refining process. Also to note that since he lost the primarchs, it takes longer in the process to create an astartes.

 

 

Not to mention the fact that the emperor had to go back and clean up most of the genetics of the human population as war, radiation, and other things had made them screwy.

 

 

And to note, despite larger manpower, building orbital shipyards and space faring vessels must've taken decades to put together in order to conquer the stars, not to mention the fact of giving each legion/expedition group a number of vessels. I mean it's not like you find warp drives lying around in your backyard (though on Mars it is entirely plausible) and the creation of such vessels and training the crews must've taken a while as well.

 

 

The books would have me believe that there's a considerable force that sets to the stars from the Sol system as not many human remnants have space faring vessels nor the capacity to use them.

[Conn Eremon]

But then who would he trust to lead his armies? Didn't he create the Primarchs because he didn't trust some man(or men) to be the generals of his gene-enhanced warriors?

To conquer the galaxy for him, yes.

 

But does that have to mean he had to lead every battle on Terra personally without them?

 

I say no.

 

Edit: After all, it isn't like every conquered world was personally overseen by either the Emperor or the Primarchs, or even the Legiones Astartes.

 

Some were just conquered by Army.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't recall saying that. I recall saying that the Emperor made the Primarchs because apparently he couldn't trust mortals leading his gene-enhanced warriors.

 

For example, all we see is "The Emperor led the Thunder Warriors." Not "The Emperor let General Bob from Amerika led the Thunder Warriors." Honestly, I do believe the Thunder Warriors were neither trusted on their own or without the Emperor himself leading them. Hence the Primarchs. Twenty beings he could trust, in theory. Just in case the Astartes were as unruly as the Thunder Warriors.

[Conn Eremon]

That's . . . Exactly what I was arguing against. What did I say you said that was wrong?

 

I disagree. I think the Primarchs were there to aid, because it was a war to conquer the entire galaxy and he needed beings that could handle that.

 

Which says nothing to me about Terra. The Primarchs were for the galaxy part. For the Terra part, we have no idea if he let Thunder Warriors lead themselves, or if he had trusted advisors, or not. Like Malcador, perhaps.

[Perrin]

I don't think it's viable to conquer a whole planet, populated by many different hostile factions, with just one army. They would need to have several forces led by several commanders, meaning the Emperor must have trusted them to fight without his supervision.

 

@Kol Just so I completely understand, are you saying that the Emperor didn't trust the Thunder Warriors to fight without himself leading them, or that he didn't trust them to fight under human commanders? That leaves the possibility for them to be led by Thunder Warrior commanders, Arik Taranis for example.

[Hyaenidae]

I like the extention on the Unification, though I'm not sure about a full millennium. Five hundred years, sure. I mean, at one point, he wasn't the Emperor of Mankind, beloved by all, surrounded by legions of loyal subjects and warriors. He was just a scary glowing dude, standing in the radioactive wasteland of Terra, who suddenly said "...yep, let's do this." Building a tribe, then an army, then a nation, then gathering intellectuals and scientists to make a super-army, building a technological infrastructure, politicking the local tribes and nations, etc etc, restructuring the human freakin' genome to cleanse thousands of years of biological and nuclear warfare, creating the Primarchs, losing them and starting from scratch, creating the Legions from infancy, having enough resources to arm them, Unifying Terra through violence, rebuilding Terra from the ground up (the whole planet!),  making peace with Mars, building a fleet to conquer the galaxy, unifying the Sol system and murdering every xenos scum that dared to stick around, etc.

 

That takes longer than a few years, especially when your tech level prior to the union of terra and mars was basically Mad Max of the future.

[Marshal Rohr]

It took from 1648 to now to build the UN from the Peace of Westphalia, and the UN isn't close to unification :P

[Hyaenidae]

Hey, I'm trying to give the Emps some credit here!  :P

[Perrin]

It took from 1648 to now to build the UN from the Peace of Westphalia, and the UN isn't close to unification

If the UN had Thunder Warriors though...

[depthcharge12]

I like the extention on the Unification, though I'm not sure about a full millennium. Five hundred years, sure. I mean, at one point, he wasn't the Emperor of Mankind, beloved by all, surrounded by legions of loyal subjects and warriors. He was just a scary glowing dude, standing in the radioactive wasteland of Terra, who suddenly said "...yep, let's do this." Building a tribe, then an army, then a nation, then gathering intellectuals and scientists to make a super-army, building a technological infrastructure, politicking the local tribes and nations, etc etc, restructuring the human freakin' genome to cleanse thousands of years of biological and nuclear warfare, creating the Primarchs, losing them and starting from scratch, creating the Legions from infancy, having enough resources to arm them, Unifying Terra through violence, rebuilding Terra from the ground up (the whole planet!),  making peace with Mars, building a fleet to conquer the galaxy, unifying the Sol system and murdering every xenos scum that dared to stick around, etc.

 

That takes longer than a few years, especially when your tech level prior to the union of terra and mars was basically Mad Max of the future.

 

Lol this almost sounds like The Legion and Caesar in Fallout New Vegas to a T

[Kol Saresk]

I don't think it's viable to conquer a whole planet, populated by many different hostile factions, with just one army. They would need to have several forces led by several commanders, meaning the Emperor must have trusted them to fight without his supervision.

 

@Kol Just so I completely understand, are you saying that the Emperor didn't trust the Thunder Warriors to fight without himself leading them, or that he didn't trust them to fight under human commanders? That leaves the possibility for them to be led by Thunder Warrior commanders, Arik Taranis for example.

I think he didn't trust them under human commanders and considering the stories of uncontrolled brutality that surrounded them when the Emperor was leading them, it was possible he didn't trust them to themselves all too much either.

 

So when he set about the Space Marines, the Primarchs were made to control the Space Marines, not the Imperium. I think Cormac thinks I'm saying "Primarchs led everything" and I'm not.

[Perrin]

 

I don't think it's viable to conquer a whole planet, populated by many different hostile factions, with just one army. They would need to have several forces led by several commanders, meaning the Emperor must have trusted them to fight without his supervision.

 

@Kol Just so I completely understand, are you saying that the Emperor didn't trust the Thunder Warriors to fight without himself leading them, or that he didn't trust them to fight under human commanders? That leaves the possibility for them to be led by Thunder Warrior commanders, Arik Taranis for example.

I think he didn't trust them under human commanders and considering the stories of uncontrolled brutality that surrounded them when the Emperor was leading them, it was possible he didn't trust them to themselves all too much either.

 

So when he set about the Space Marines, the Primarchs were made to control the Space Marines, not the Imperium. I think Cormac thinks I'm saying "Primarchs led everything" and I'm not.

 

Fair enough, but I disagree. Thunder Warriors under human commanders is a definite no-no. We've seen how most Space Marines view human commanders, I'd think the Thunder Warriors would be so much worse. I do think that they would have had their own commanders though. There were twenty TW regiments, and it is known that Arik Taranis was a commander, that signifies some kind of command structure.

 

I also can't see how any army could conquer a planet with numerous factions all hostile to each other with just one army, no matter the power. There needs to be some kind of manoeuvrability which you can only have if you have sub-commanders that can wage war on their own. Otherwise it would be just the Emperor leading one army. By the time He takes out one enemy stronghold another enemy has destroyed his supply lines, by the time He's tracked back and repaired those supply lines, the enemy has reinforced the original stronghold and another enemy has raided his ammo production facilities and so on. He would be outmanoeuvred.

 

Also, in some cases it seems the Legions were doing much better before being reunited with their Primarchs. The World Eaters are an obvious example, but others seem more about being a figurehead than an actual military leader. Pre-Fall Lorgar for example, he was the spiritual leader of the Word Bearers but it didn't seem like he was much of a military leader.

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't mean there was no command structure just that the Emperor would seem to be a restraining factor and yet there were still all these horror stories. Imagine what would happen if he wasn't around?

 

And so, my personal theory, is he then set about making twenty more restraints, one for each of the Legions. But due to better design process, more stable implantation procedure or whatever, as you pointed out, the restraints weren't really needed.

 

And we also know the Thunder Warriors were not the only soldiers who fought for the Emperor. I believe Grammaticus said he fought with the Caucasian Regiments and there were also the Old One Hundred who were volunteers to his banner IIRC. So the Thunder Warriors would be like the Astartes: Personal army within an army meant for the unbreakable targets.

[Conn Eremon]

 

 

 

I don't think it's viable to conquer a whole planet, populated by many different hostile factions, with just one army. They would need to have several forces led by several commanders, meaning the Emperor must have trusted them to fight without his supervision.

 

@Kol Just so I completely understand, are you saying that the Emperor didn't trust the Thunder Warriors to fight without himself leading them, or that he didn't trust them to fight under human commanders? That leaves the possibility for them to be led by Thunder Warrior commanders, Arik Taranis for example.

I think he didn't trust them under human commanders and considering the stories of uncontrolled brutality that surrounded them when the Emperor was leading them, it was possible he didn't trust them to themselves all too much either.

 

So when he set about the Space Marines, the Primarchs were made to control the Space Marines, not the Imperium. I think Cormac thinks I'm saying "Primarchs led everything" and I'm not.

Nnnnnope. But whatevs.

[Augustus]

Didn't the Mechanicum have fleets of ships waiting in the docks at the end of Unification? They lacked the navigators but they would periodically send out fleets blind.

 

I recall reading that they had the ships and the Emperor had the navigators hence the union but I can't remember where :/

[Molokai]

That's in betrayal.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah but the end of Unification was literally the end of conquering the Sol System. Which is partly why I believe the solar system campaign was also used to build ships while conquering the various fleets and empires with Sol.

[Chief Captain Redd]

I like the idea of Unification starting with just a big glowing giant golden god who said "feth this". Striding through some warlord's holds smiting all who stand against him, his massive flaming sword causing equal fear and awe. And quickly his followers grow, a long train of humanity clinging to the hope that is him.

[Perrin]

Wasn't the Saturnine Fleet pretty big? With the ships built on Terra to travel the Sol system, the ones Mars had stockpiled and the Saturnine Fleet they may have had enough to start sending out expeditions. Also is there any mention of ships from the Age of Technology? There could have been fleets waiting around in orbit for crews and astropaths to commandeer them.