How do you want your Legion to be?

[HsojVvad]

I don't know what GW has done. It has gotten a lot of us upset in the last 10 years. I have gone through that with the 4th edition DA. I see it now with CSM and Tyranids now. All I have been reading a lot as of late is a lot of negativity. I can understand DA at the time. I can understand why Nid players are upset. I don't understand why CSM players are upset. Well I think I have an idea why a lot of CSM are upset. So I was thinking what do they want? As a new player to CSM, I have no idea on how they should be. For me, I don't know what I should have for the Alpha Legion which I seem to have chosen. 

 

I am hoping this thread will not turn into negativity. All I want to see is what Legion people play and what they would like to see for Legion rules and how it should be played in their eyes. We all have different opinions, so what someone sees for one Legion, another can see something different entirely for the same Legion. 

 

So all I ask is, how do you see or envision on how your Legion should be played. What rules do you think should be in there. How should it be played. What does need to be added or removed for it to become your envisioned Legion.

 

Again, we all have different opinions so please no lambasting others for their opinions. 

 

 

[Rain]

The thing that you have to understand about Chaos players, especially ones that frequent forums like B&C is that a lot of us view our army less as "Chaos" and more as "Night Lords" or "Iron Warriors" or whatever else. The point is, that the more specific and fleshed out legion identities tend to appeal to people on a deeper level than the overall theme of evil/insane Space Marines that want to overthrow the Imperium. So, unlike a lot of complaints from other armies, our complaints are often less so that we have bad units (though there's plenty of that too) but that we can't represent what we view as our army.

 

So it's kind of like if Dark Angels had no codex at all, and GW just told DA players to paint their Space Marines green and their Terminators white and maybe take more plasma weapons than they would otherwise to "represent" Dark Angels. Also Helldrakes and Forgefiends are stupid. They should be in the Demons codex if anywhere.

 

Edit/Addendum: What most people seem to want is either a choice of Tactical doctrines as in C:SM, or at least Special Characters that unlock things armywide USRs (though I've never liked this solution), or maybe even per squad purchasable upgrades in the vein of VotLW that unlocks certain traits. Honestly I think it's less about the power than it is about the flavor, it's just psychological, people want that "special something" that makes their army uniquely of the faction they love and not the exact same as an army of a faction with totally different fluff (ie Night Lords vs. Word Bearers).

[KhorneFlakes]

I'm one of those odd-balls who started Chaos especially for my own renegade war band, the Bringers of Purgatory, but I can understand why Legion players are upset. But while we have no Legion rules do not forget the Icons and Marks we do get. I believe this is enough and replaces legion rules, also if you want to be just like Space Marines, go ahead, have legion rules as well! But this is chaos don't forget.

[Brother Heinrich]

For me I would be happy if my Night Lords had these traits:

 

• Night Vision: conferred to all non-vehicle models including walkers in a detachment with the Legion Trait: "Night Lords" rule.

• Fear: conferred to all non-vehicle models including walkers in a detachment with the Legion Trait: "Night Lords" rule.

 

That's it. No restrictions on which units you can and can't take like in the 3.5 codex. Nothing aside from some basic universal traits for all who descend from Kurze's geneseed. That means players can have Night Lord warbands with heldrakes and plague marines or warbands with chaos marines and raptor support. The full range of possible warbands with no limit on hobbyists while still giving a tip of the hat to the origins of them all.

 

Edit: Also you can have the option to claim your heritage from any one of the 9 father legions and use their traits accordingly. A different ruleset should exist for newer chaos warbands like the Red Corsairs who should techinically have access to BS like Grav guns and Centurions.

[daboarder]

Deathguard, Units with MoN gain +1T, -1I, Feel No Pain.

 

And I'm a happy chaos man

[Scribe]

I've got a thread I am posting up with my view on all this.

 

Specifically to World Eaters though.

 

Within the framework of a 'Legion' supplement? I would dial back my requests greatly. Fearless in CC, and a rule to Assault out of Rhinos that have not moved mostly covers it.

 

What I believe however, is that the cult legions need their own book, as the Legions essentially lose out on 3 units, (there are no Noise Marine World Eaters, but there can be Plague Marine Night Lords)

 

Due to that, I'm of the opinion that 3 'cult' units need to be added for each.

 

World Eaters would be

 

1. World Eaters on Juggernaughts.

2. World Eaters Dreadnought, think something like Furioso, but no shooting focus at all.

3. Commander subtype, not quiet a lord, but a support character for CC.

[Dar'kir]

I would have to agree with the overall sentiment that some type of customization is needed. Each Legion was different, and even after 10k plus years they still are. IWs dont wage war in the same style as NLs, but maybe there are some smaller warbands that mimics either ones style. Regardless, there needs to be some difference between them.

[Rain]

World Eaters wouldn't be hard to do. Mark of Khorne needs to give +1WS, Furious Charge, and Counter-attack, inluding to Terminators, Lords, Daemon Princes, etc. They also need jugger riders as an elites or maybe fast attack choice. Basically Bloodcrushers but with Berzerkers on them instead of Bloodletters. Also, they need delivery options, which since drop pods are apparently off the table because reasons means that dedicating a vehicle to Khorne should make it count as an assault vehicle. Maybe make it unable to use smoke launchers or something as "balance" not that balance seems to matter that much anymore, and with all of the pre-existing game features favoring shooting, this probably wouldn't be that bad to begin with.

 

Oh and most important in my opinion is wargear. I love the RPG aspect of picking out interesting items and weapons, the Dark Eldar codex actually does this very well, the Chaos codex could needs more Chaotic trinkets. This was also a big thing in 3.5, but apparently it was "confusing" or some other silly excuse like that, but Chaos characters need to feel powerful, that's the whole point of selling your soul.

 

Addendum: Also it's a bit silly that loyalist chapters have better veterans and Terminators than Chaos who have 10,000 year old veterans using ancient technology that mankind has forgotten how to produce. I don't know about other people, but I'd be really exited about a highly elite, low model count Legionnaire army serving as a kind of foil to Great Knights moreso than vanilla Space Marines. Garden variety Paladins being better far superior to Abaddon's elite personal guard is just---yeah.

[Hellios]

It depends... Some units could do with major changes... at a base codex level... Then, depending on those changes 'legion rules/war band traits' of some sort could be added on... But a better core codex would solve most of the problems. To be honest, I only believe 'legion rules' are require because if all the options in a chaos codex were a free for all... you would get some great, fluffy, but still competitive armies of different types; alas, you would also get the totally OTT mix and match chaos...

 

However a good start would be to make cult units an upgrade... like the MoK is now. UBER MARK... So that I can apply it to pretty much any unit I want. I would also consider wrapping Chosen and terminators into one unit. I would then give them a limited number of options for wargear (like they have now), but with the ability to upgrade every member into an aspiring champion. Aspiring champions would have access to the chaos armoury. So you could make a squad of zerker champions riding on crushers if you wanted, or a squad of aspiring sorcerers. I would also allow chosen squads to take 1 or 2 veterans skills (which might be restricted by marks).

 

Veteran skills, and more chaos equipment/dark blessings throughout the codex would also be a good step towards allowing good legion armies (even without specific war band traits...) 

 

The final thing I think chaos is missing is interesting (but decent) chaos versions of loyalist things. Most chaos versions of things have less options, and are not as good for what they cost as they are for the loyalists...  Think Land Raider variants and so on. It would be neat to have some of those with chaos upgrades... Hades auto-cannons, Kai-guns, Butcher cannons, Ecto-cannons, Bale flamers, and so on... Seriously... one weapons upgrade spure in the Chaos Land Raider box would be all it takes to give chaos multiple new Land Raider variants that are different to the loyalists. The same could be said for predators and so on. The helbrute already has stuff dreads don't have... regardless of how you feel about the new model.

[KhorneFlakes]

Okay, so you all have good ideas for traits and the ADVANTAGES you would give your marines, but where is the counterbalance! 

[daboarder]

The same place the marine ciubter balance is

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I also think the thing that most of us want with legion specific rules/abilities etc, is not too far away from loyalist marines separate codices or chapter specific rules. Right?? We get a single codex and little added books full of fluff, while the loyalists get their own books and such. It's a sore point  for a lot of us. This is nothing new for any of you. I am also a new convert to chaos, so a lot of these bigger and deeper issues I agree with. Chaos is indeed the red-headed step child of the GW line...

 

I play both Word Bearers and Night Lords.

Brother Heinrich said everything I would like to see already for my Night Lords.

Word Bearers should of gotten some of the treatment that the new Crimson Slaughter seemed to be given, in my opinion.

I view my WB's as more of the 'generic' CSM army, so I am indifferent about them not having legion specific rules, etc. This is not because I think they don't need and or deserve them. In my head the neutrality of their legion feels like it could be any of the 4 main gods of chaos and that's enough for me personally.

 

End of Line

[notsoevil]

Deathguard, Units with MoN gain +1T, -1I, Feel No Pain.

 

And I'm a happy chaos man

 

That'd be nice, but even Plaguebearers don't get FnP (much to my chagrin) without adding in a lot of points with a Herald and Focus.  Grr.

 

I'd be fine if MoN and DoN just gave FnP 6+ at least.

[Trevak Dal]

I'm not really in the 'legion' camp. I mean, more options and chapter tactic like stuff to make use of would be cool, but I came in with chaos with the previous book-whose beserkers were awesome and glorious.

 

Now...they're WS5, 1 attack base +1 for being double armed Furious charge and fearless.

 

They're bp/CCW mark of khorne space marines +ws5 with Fearless and Furious charge and less upgrade options.

 

All I want, is for Khorne armies to be to close combat (and getting there) like Tau are to shooting.

 

I'm going to see if I can convince a friend to let me try playing with Beserkers as a basline, and then purchase terminator armor (terminator armor, power weapon, combi bolter) for 25 points swap to elites, 5-10 models, Bikers are the same, Jump packs the same.

 

It would be horrendously expensive points wise, but having my Elite Beserker terminators, Raptors and Bikers would be a fine Consolation prize for me. I'm cool with paying in points for what I want-just let me buy what I want you know?

[Clone]

Y'know what I would like to see. A list of small traits, and then being allowed to pick one or two that apply to Chaos Marines in the army. Yeah, it shouldn't be anything really game breaking, but it would allow the customization I think Chaos Players want. You want Night Lords? Pick Fear and Night Vision. You want Iron Warriors? Pick...whatever would apply to them. (I haven't even played a game in 6th, so I don't know what would work for them.) And even if you don't want to play what remains of the Legions, you still to add a bit of flavor to the Warband your'e fielding. 

 

That's my two cents, anyway.

-Tarvik

This.

 

Something similar to what Space Marines got in 4th ed; a list of traits with advantages and drawbacks so that we chaos players can represent Legions AND Warbands.