Speculation on future supplements

[Sception]

Possessed shouldn't be a thing every word bearer is forced to use, but they embody the connection between chaos marine and daemon, which the word bearers should be all about, and their elite possessed feature heavily in the characterization of their legion in the fiction.  I'm not (and didn't) say possessed should be required in the armies of word bearers players, but rather that possessed as troops isn't really closer to the word bearers lore than possessed as elites, the unit just needs to be improved to be worthy of its elite slot and points cost.

 

Otherwise, you're saying the same thing I was saying - improve the parent book to be full of thematically versatile choices that are also worth using so it can represent a wide range of chaos marine warbands, legion aligned or otherwise, and then legion rules if any can be very minor traits, basically decorative rules.

[Valaskjalf]

Im sorry to sound pessimistic or seem as though im trolling....but what really is the point of this thread? This wishlisting type of discussion is exactly why so many csm players become enraged as they inevitably want to believe all this will come true.....only to be disappointed when GW dont turn their fantasies into reality. Over the years weve had TONS of these discussions all futile...this will only make the situation worse until we know for a FACT that any futher supplements will be released. I find this is just setting everyone up for another massive disappointment and disillusionment.

[Sception]

Because there is nothing else to talk about.

[Valaskjalf]

Yea and before we know it this will be what all csm players expect...and then all the hate spewing starts. Really dont get it.

[Sception]

The hate flows freely from the published material, & willful deafness on the part of the creators, and leads to wishlisting, not the other way around.  Nobody actually thinks this stuff is going to happen.

 

Might as well close the subforum down completely if you don't want any complaint threads, wishlisting, or negative attitudes.  There is little else to express, tactics using the published rules have been discussed to death, there's nothing new to say there, army lists have their own subforum, and painting or project logs by all rights belong on the painting subforum.

[Valaskjalf]

I think the only way any of this can be fruitful and not be a total waste of time is if the idea was to compile it in a sussinct manner for the purpose of issuing it to GW in the form of a petition. At least then there would be some point to it and if they ignote it then it was a waste of time doing it in the first place

[Sception]

There is zero point to that, and the discussion literally cannot be fruitful.  Such a submission would go straight to the garbage (as well it should, and legally would need to).  The only way this could 'bear fruit' would be if chaos players could put together a homebrew list that would gain enough popularity and momentum to see wide use in place of GW rules, potentially forcing GW's hand a-la the chapterhouse or chaos dwarf situations.

 

But even that cannot happen - there is no consensus among chaos players of what is wrong exactly, let alone what would constitute an appropriate fix or replacement, and as long as chaos has current rules, unlike chaos dwarves, nobody else would let us play it for it to gain traction if we did.

 

We are literally just spinning our wheels here.  As we always are in this forum, in every thread, because that's all there is to do. 

[Dragonlover]

Im sorry to sound pessimistic or seem as though im trolling....but what really is the point of this thread? This wishlisting type of discussion is exactly why so many csm players become enraged as they inevitably want to believe all this will come true.....only to be disappointed when GW dont turn their fantasies into reality. Over the years weve had TONS of these discussions all futile...this will only make the situation worse until we know for a FACT that any futher supplements will be released. I find this is just setting everyone up for another massive disappointment and disillusionment.

 

The point of this thread was to talk about how GW might do Chaos supplements going forwards, assuming that they won't be named for and about a Legion. So, speculations on which warbands they might use, whether or not they'd make them vaguely usable to represent a Legion while not explicitly stating it, that sort of thing.

 

Of course, a lot of Legion related discussion has happened, as is inevitable. So, to get the topic back on track a bit, a question for you all:

 

Which warband would you like to see get a Supplement next?

 

I want Hakanor's Reavers because they look cool. I want The Damned Company of Lord Caustos, because I want to know why they're damned and who Caustos is. Might be a bit long for a Codex title though. I want something from the Abyssal Crusade, because I genuinely think it's a cool bit of fluff that could do with expanding.

 

Dragonlover

[Smurfalypse]

Sorry, I'm just confused because I thought you said Word Bearers should be represented by Cultists, a Dark Apostle an Daemon allies, all of which can be done with the base Codex, but then the option to have Possessed rulesets was bringing us closer to that. It's just a misunderstanding is all.

No worries chap. I'm currently blessed by Nurgle, so my brain isn't up to full speed today.

>

I don't give a toss about cheese lists, this game should never be played competitively because it's fundamentally flawed. However, if you want a ruleset to represent the Word Bearers as they are in the current fluff, you can do worse than the Crimson Slaughter.

Also, notice how I said *most* of the way there. I never claimed that it was the one true way to represent a Word Bearer army, merely that it probably works. Hell, I'm not even gonna use it for *my* Word Bearers, but it's gonna form part of my Black Legion force.

Dragonlove

Well, please tell us about the faults of competitive play from your obviously extensive, first hand experience

Pidgeon holeing Word Bearers or any Legion for that matter into a single supplement that forces you to play a particular way is not what the game or fluff is about.

As ADB and a few others have said, the Chaos Warbands are so numerous that to take an individual book and say "this is how Legion X plays" is pretty much a travesty. People need to use what they want to use. You want your Word Bearers to summon a bunch of daemons? Ally with Daemons. Want to run Possessed as Troops? Run Crimson Slaughter. Want to run Chosen all over joint? Use Black Legion.

To pigeon hole would be a grave mistake and a disservice to the Legions themselves.

Hey, I'm not saying there's anything inherently wrong with wanting to play 40K competitively, just that the ruleset is inherently terrible for competitive play. I scratch my balanced competition itch with MTG.

I agree with your point about a single 'this is how Legion X plays' being pidgeon holey and naff, which is why I think they'll be doing a bunch of supplements based around Renegades that can easily(ish) represent how people think a certain Legion plays.

Think about it this way. If Codex Death Guard comes out, there's a lot of expectation regarding how it will play, what the fluff will be like and so on. Codex Vectors of Pox has way less people waiting to pull it apart because it doesn't do things the way 3.5 did, but would probably be usable to build a Death Guard army.

Dragonlover

There are thousands of competitive players in the DC area who disagree for the most part. Yeah, this edition has issues but they are not damning issues and are greatly over stated by people who do not generally play in competitive games (sky is falling rants are usually from people who play more casually). Pretty much the speed at which things were released shocked everyone and caused a lot of confliction on what was happening with the game, it has settled now into a normal rythm but we still do not have a "meta" per say. I play in a monthly RTT and each time a different army is winning. Sometimes Serpent Spam, sometimes Cron Air, sometimes Daemons, sometimes Taudar, sometimes Seer Council, and last time Beast-Star. It is great to have such diversity in the people who are winning these.

NOVA Open 2013 was taken by a rather unknown list at the time, Ovesa-Star, Tau, Eldar, Daemons, Dark Angels, and a Grey Knight army all placed in the top 20. This does not include all the allies that were included in these lists, no one list is ruling anything and that is a great thing.

I love my Word Bearers but I am fearful that I will get a supplement and be forced to take X unit to represent my army. I would prefer to have a very generic abilities if we have to have anything at all. I love me some Possessed and own 60 and have 40 painted, I would love to use them but they are just so pricey (points wise) right now I cant, even in casual games (unit of 20 with a banner and a mark is more than 600pts in the elite slot).

I agree with you though, something needs to change. These last two books have been about as bland as they can be.

[d@n]

well red corsairs is an obvious one. maybe using the chaos dex but being able to take a limited amount of stuff from the vanilla dex, seems like the sort of thing gw would do as you would need to buy 3 books to play such an army.

[Smurfalypse]

 

Pidgeon holeing Word Bearers or any Legion for that matter into a single supplement that forces you to play a particular way is not what the game or fluff is about.

 

I might be misunderstanding you, but isn't this what (most) of the chapter tactics in C:SM does - tactics that many CSM-players are longing for to have in the Chaos codex?

 

For instance;

*If you play Salamanders you should field alot of Flamers and Meltas, otherwise you 'waste' the chaptertactics. 

*If you play Imperial Fists, you should field alot of bolter-weapons and some devastators, otherwise you 'waste' the chaptertactics.

*If you play White Scars, you should really field alot of bikers, otherwise you 'waste' the chaptertactics.

*If you play Raven Guard, you should field alot of jump infantry, otherwise you 'waste' the chaptertactics.

*If you play Black Templars, you should field a bunch of melee units, otherwise you 'waste' the chaptertactics.

 

The only 2 chapter tactics in C:SM that doesn't force you to play in a certain way are the Ultramarines and the Iron Hands' chapter tactics.

 

What I am saying is that it is a bad thing what they did with most of the Chapter Traits for SMs. They did a huge disservice to many of them and now you rarely see them on the table top. So I agree with you (I think) :P

Ultra Marines got a well rounded one and thus you see them.

Iron Hands got a good one and are super popular because of it.

 

The rest got forced to play a certain way and a few got forced to play a certain way but their traits dont even work on their units (Ravenguard, as Assault Marines are bulky they do not gain the use of most of their Tactics).

 

I do not want this for CSMs, I would prefer to just make more units worthy of seeing table time or supplements that make units playable (Possessed in Crimson Slaughter). Then I can run my WB and use whatever I want from any of these books.

 

Hope this explains my position better.

[Smurfalypse]

I don't give a toss about cheese lists, this game should never be played competitively because it's fundamentally flawed. However, if you want a ruleset to represent the Word Bearers as they are in the current fluff, you can do worse than the Crimson Slaughter.

Also, notice how I said *most* of the way there. I never claimed that it was the one true way to represent a Word Bearer army, merely that it probably works. Hell, I'm not even gonna use it for *my* Word Bearers, but it's gonna form part of my Black Legion force.

Dragonlove

Well, please tell us about the faults of competitive play from your obviously extensive, first hand experience

Competitive play = an arms race = "mine is bigger/better than yours"

Of course it is, no skill or tactics involved at all. People just throw down a unit and hope for the best!

Ignorant statement.

[Smurfalypse]

If that's what you want to call it. But it is a fundamental fact of the background that Chaos is more widely varied, mostly due to its random nature.

 

And the obvious pigeon-holing is why I disagree with the idea of returning to a 3.5-esque format.

 

EDIT: If you want to see what I mean, look at how Forgeworld has done their Legions and compare it to Chapter Tactics or 3.5.

 

I agree with this 100%.

The only aspect of the 3.5 book was the options, throw out the Legion pages and that codex would have been my bible :P

[Scribe]

See but FW is doing Legion Rules. They are at the front of each section for the legion. Thats all we are looking for...some of us anyway.

[King Jackal]

I don't give a toss about cheese lists, this game should never be played competitively because it's fundamentally flawed. However, if you want a ruleset to represent the Word Bearers as they are in the current fluff, you can do worse than the Crimson Slaughter.

Also, notice how I said *most* of the way there. I never claimed that it was the one true way to represent a Word Bearer army, merely that it probably works. Hell, I'm not even gonna use it for *my* Word Bearers, but it's gonna form part of my Black Legion force.

Dragonlove

Well, please tell us about the faults of competitive play from your obviously extensive, first hand experience

Competitive play = an arms race = "mine is bigger/better than yours"

Of course it is, no skill or tactics involved at all. People just throw down a unit and hope for the best!

Ignorant statement.

The fault of competitive play lies with the concept of one-upsmanship. That's not ignorance bro-champ, that's the nature of the beast.

[Smurfalypse]

I don't give a toss about cheese lists, this game should never be played competitively because it's fundamentally flawed. However, if you want a ruleset to represent the Word Bearers as they are in the current fluff, you can do worse than the Crimson Slaughter.

Also, notice how I said *most* of the way there. I never claimed that it was the one true way to represent a Word Bearer army, merely that it probably works. Hell, I'm not even gonna use it for *my* Word Bearers, but it's gonna form part of my Black Legion force.

Dragonlove

Well, please tell us about the faults of competitive play from your obviously extensive, first hand experience

Competitive play = an arms race = "mine is bigger/better than yours"

Of course it is, no skill or tactics involved at all. People just throw down a unit and hope for the best!

Ignorant statement.

The fault of competitive play lies with the concept of one-upsmanship. That's not ignorance bro-champ, that's the nature of the beast.

Must not have played many sports as a kid. Competition is not about one-upsmanship (certainly for a minority it is), it is about the competition itself. Some people just want to play people on their skill level and have some rough games, but I guess basic generalizations are the way of the non-ignorant :P

[Spacefrisian]

40 Euro for a different name on a codex and some minor things changed. May i ask how smart some of you are if you wish GW to bring out yet another halfbaked supplement?

[Kol Saresk]

40 Euro for a different name on a codex and some minor things changed. May i ask how smart some of you are if you wish GW to bring out yet another halfbaked supplement?

And new fluff. Unless writing positives are a bad thing?

[Smurfalypse]

More good fluff is always a good thing.

[Kol Saresk]

 

More good fluff is always a good thing.

Exactly. Although that is predicated on it being "good", which has yet to be determined.

[King Jackal]

I don't give a toss about cheese lists, this game should never be played competitively because it's fundamentally flawed. However, if you want a ruleset to represent the Word Bearers as they are in the current fluff, you can do worse than the Crimson Slaughter.

Also, notice how I said *most* of the way there. I never claimed that it was the one true way to represent a Word Bearer army, merely that it probably works. Hell, I'm not even gonna use it for *my* Word Bearers, but it's gonna form part of my Black Legion force.

Dragonlove

Well, please tell us about the faults of competitive play from your obviously extensive, first hand experience

Competitive play = an arms race = "mine is bigger/better than yours"

Of course it is, no skill or tactics involved at all. People just throw down a unit and hope for the best!

Ignorant statement.

The fault of competitive play lies with the concept of one-upsmanship. That's not ignorance bro-champ, that's the nature of the beast.

Must not have played many sports as a kid. Competition is not about one-upsmanship (certainly for a minority it is), it is about the competition itself. Some people just want to play people on their skill level and have some rough games, but I guess basic generalizations are the way of the non-ignorant :P

Sorry I should have made it clear I was talking about the competitive scene within 40k.

It's to the point where we are implementing handicap points to certain deathstars, formations and spam choices. It's creating an environment though where players aren't afraid to experiment with different ideas at a competitive level, as they are automatically 1-3 kill points up on those triple tide, triple drake, baron council, screamer star lists. I don't know if I'm more confused about the comparison between playing sport and what's essentially a game of stat altering luck or the fact you don't think there's a huge amount of 'keeping up with/outdoing the joneses' within sport, especially competitive sport....?

Ive been thinking a lot about how I'd like to see night lords play, how about a mechanic like Grisly Trophies: any model/unit that fires over watch at charging Night lords must re roll successful hits.

[Smurfalypse]

 

 

More good fluff is always a good thing.

Exactly. Although that is predicated on it being "good", which has yet to be determined.

 

lol very very true.

[Smurfalypse]

I don't give a toss about cheese lists, this game should never be played competitively because it's fundamentally flawed. However, if you want a ruleset to represent the Word Bearers as they are in the current fluff, you can do worse than the Crimson Slaughter.

Also, notice how I said *most* of the way there. I never claimed that it was the one true way to represent a Word Bearer army, merely that it probably works. Hell, I'm not even gonna use it for *my* Word Bearers, but it's gonna form part of my Black Legion force.

Dragonlove

Well, please tell us about the faults of competitive play from your obviously extensive, first hand experience

Competitive play = an arms race = "mine is bigger/better than yours"

Of course it is, no skill or tactics involved at all. People just throw down a unit and hope for the best!

Ignorant statement.

The fault of competitive play lies with the concept of one-upsmanship. That's not ignorance bro-champ, that's the nature of the beast.

Must not have played many sports as a kid. Competition is not about one-upsmanship (certainly for a minority it is), it is about the competition itself. Some people just want to play people on their skill level and have some rough games, but I guess basic generalizations are the way of the non-ignorant

Sorry I should have made it clear I was talking about the competitive scene within 40k.

It's to the point where we are implementing handicap points to certain deathstars, formations and spam choices. It's creating an environment though where players aren't afraid to experiment with different ideas at a competitive level, as they are automatically 1-3 kill points up on those triple tide, triple drake, baron council, screamer star lists. I don't know if I'm more confused about the comparison between playing sport and what's essentially a game of stat altering luck or the fact you don't think there's a huge amount of 'keeping up with/outdoing the joneses' within sport, especially competitive sport....?

Ive been thinking a lot about how I'd like to see night lords play, how about a mechanic like Grisly Trophies: any model/unit that fires over watch at charging Night lords must re roll successful hits.

I will explain further to avoid confusion as to what I mean.

You said competitive play is a game of one-upsmanship. I disagree, I say from experience (both my own and the hundreds of competitive players in my area) that most people play competitive 40k to try and get tougher games in. Some people actually enjoy a tough game and upper skilled players cannot find those in random pick up games of 40k, regardless of what kind of list they run. I win most of my casual games using 6 Mutilators or some other silly list that I play for fun. I actually want a tough game, I want it to come down to the wire, and I want us to play to the best of our abilities. That is why most people who play in the 40k tourney scene do, not to talk :cuss and make someone else look like less than you.

My statement about "you must not have played sports" should have been worded differently. Most kids play sports because they love the sport and they love the competition, not to make anyone feel lesser (though some do obviously, but this is a large minority). You basically made a blanket statement about every person who enjoys competition, so I am explaining myself as someone who enjoys competition, along with 90% of the other competitive players (who I am around quite often). It may surprise you but I was on table 8 at NOVA Open last year and sitting across from me was someone considered to be one of the best players in the US, we shook hands, cracked a few jokes, and then he offered me a beer. Far from one-upsmanship.

I wish we would have had more flare to our codex but unfortunately that was not this edition. The Legions are basically dead and it does not look like GW will be writing about them anymore from a rules standpoint (very sad about that). Maybe next supplement or Codex :P

[Trevak Dal]

I scratch my competition itch with Halo, BO2 and BF4.  I enjoy all the killing-that's why!.  And akimbo Tac.45s is so "Where da Hood at" it isn't even funny, I just wish BO2 had the slide like in ghosts, which is mechanically awesome-but ruined by the playerbase (hey...sounds familiar!)

[minigun762]

Feels slightly off topic. Might want to steer back onto the thread's initial purpose.