Storm Wing and Allied Space Marines

[Disruptor_fe404]

Independent Formation: The Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing Formation does not benefit from the Chapter Tactics special rule, but units from Codex: Space Marines that are included in the same army can begin the game embarked on the Stormraven Gunship, and can embark on it during the game.

 

The quoted text in mind, add a primary detachment of Space Marines, and an allied detachment of different Space Marines - let's go with Imperial Fists primary and Ultramarines allied.

 

They are part of the same army, the Storm Wing's Stormraven is part of neither detachment, but has a rule allowing units from Codex: Space Marines to embark on it, which both Imperial Fists and Ultramarines are.

 

Am I allowed to attach Tigurius to a squad of Imperial Fist Devastator Centurions and then put both into the Storm Raven? The specific character and unit don't matter here, this could just as easily be an Iron Hands Ironclad and a White Scar Scout Squad.

 

Argument for Yes!:

1. The rule says "...units from Codex: Space Marines...", which they are, and the "...in the same army..." qualifier is satisfied.

Argument for No!:

1. Permissive ruleset, and the rule does not specifically allow you to break the rule in the Allies section.

 

Dazzle me with your logical prowess, brothers.

 

Thanks in advance!

[Dam13n]

My first thought is that the answer should be yes.

 

If every unit/model is looking to embark upon the Storm Raven is from Codex: Space Marines then they have permission to do so as per the quoted rule.

 

The Allies rule being referred to is:

 

 

"However, note that not even battle brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."  BRB page 112

 

With the formation existing outside of the normal FOCs it's not really an "Allied Transport Vehicle".  It's special rule further supports this.

 

Therefore the Allies rule doesn't come into question, IMHO.

 

But it's an interesting question, I'm interested to see what others think.  Hopefully we'll get a good debate out of this.

[alex567]

The important thing to note is the rule for the "Independent formation":

 

"The Adeptus Astartes Storm Wing Formation does not benefit from the Chapter Tactics special rule, but units from Codex: Space Marines that are included in the same army can begin the game embarked on the storm raven gunship, and can embark in it during the game"

 

This specifically allows for overriding of the allies rule. Just a word of note, the allies rules apply to formation hence the need for this included text.

 

Now, The allies rules specifically note one rule with regards to transports:

 

"However, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."

 

Now, with regards to tigarius attached to a squad of Imperial Fist Devestator Centurians.

Constraint one is not broken, they can embark on the storm raven as given a rule that allows them to do so.

Constraint two is broken, as the storm ravens are allies. But constraint one allows us to override this rule specifically.

 

To summarise neither constraints are broken within the rules with regards to each other and the unit. Therefore there is no rule stopping you from placing tigarius in the squad and inside the storm raven.

 

The rules actually permit this to happen. As they do not specifically note a situation where it cannot occur.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I came to the same conclusion as both of you, but wanted to see if there was another side of the coin that I had missed.

 

Plus, I'm not actually sure how I'd apply this (rather interesting) interaction either, but that's a topic for another thread.

[Grey Mage]

*nods* I would say the allies rule doesnt matter at all in this case, the formations rule makes it pretty clear to do as you like.

[hallodx]

I'm following GM at this.

Codex rule/Formation rule over BRB, clear enough.

[Gentlemanloser]

The interesting question is;

 

Where do formations fit in on Page 7?

 

Currently, by RAW, they have no presence.  So *no* rule on a Formation (or Dataslate, or Supplement) can over rule a BRB basic or advanced, or a Codex rule.

 

As the BRB rules that allies cannot ride in bro's transports, and Formation are not covered on Page 7 (and a Formation *is not* a Codex...), then the Formation rules *cannot* over rule a BRB restriction.

 

So, by RAW, no.

 

RAI, sure.

[alex567]

There is however a specific string of rules which allows us to over ride said BRB> Formation fiasco.

 

The rules for datasheets (ergo adepts astartes storming in question) contain a specific description:

 

"Dataslates contain collections of one or more datasheets. Each datasheet lists its faction (the codex it is considered part of), and will present either an Army List Entry (the rules and points values for a single model, vehicle or unit) or a Formation (a specific group of models, vehicles or units that enable you to use specific rules when you include them in your army)."

 

This is vaguely important, but it allows us to clarify the "Formation Special Rules" as being useable in game and being legitimate and recognisable within the 40k system. Now at this stage it is clear that the BRB still takes presidency.

 

The rule in question "Independent Formation" comes under the sub category of "Formation special rules". These are ergo, as above, special rules.

 

Now of we look back at the BRB under the special rules section we get the following:

 

"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule."

 

This means that each of the Formation Special rules, is considered in itself a special rule. Ergo we can take this one of two ways in a form of all or nothing gesture.

 

Option A the rule is allowed as it is a special rule and ergo trumps the BRB ruling. (remembering that codex rules now come from rulebooks, for instance power of the machine spirit, meaning it is no longer a codex trumps rulebook scenario)

 

Option B the rule is not allowed along with every special rule detailed from page 33 through to 43, and there by nullifying all available abilities in the game.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Option A the rule is allowed as it is a special rule and ergo trumps

the BRB ruling. (remembering that codex rules now come from rulebooks,

for instance power of the machine spirit, meaning it is no longer a

codex trumps rulebook scenario)

Option B the rule is not allowed along with every special rule

detailed from page 33 through to 43, and there by nullifying all

available abilities in the game.

 

The rulebook contains 'special rules'.  It's actually a named section all to itself (starting page 32).

 

Being a 'special rule' trumps nothing.

 

The 'Special rules' listed in the BRB are actually Advanced rules.

 

The 'Special rules' contained in Codexes are Codex rules.

 

And we're told the relationship of how Basic, Advanced and Codex rules interact.

 

Formation rules are not 'Codex' rules.  Neither are the Advanced or Basic.

 

They are currently outside the hierarchy of the three types of rules used in 40k.  And we have been given no guidance on where they should be included.

 

You could assume the intention is that they are to be treated as Codex rules.  But then what happens in a Formation to Codex conflict?  Which takes precedence then?

[alex567]

The rules listed in formation as shown above are listed as special rules. There are special rules in the codex. Nowhere does it say we differentiate between special rules in the codex and special rules in the rulebook. Again nowhere does it say we differentiate between rules in a formation and rules in the rulebook.

 

They are all special rules. There is a special rules section in the rulebook which covers ALL special rules. Ergo we use those rules to govern all special rules. The rules for special rules explicitly state they are used out of synch with the normal rules. This section governing the rules of formations. Therefore it is clear that we use formation special rules in the way we use special rules listed in the rulebook as the rules for dataslates state they are special rules.

 

If we use your logic, how do we know if a rule from a codex that tells us to look in the rulebook trumps a rule from the rulebook or from a rule from the codex, is it considered a rule from the rulebook or a rule from the codex?

 

We can't say the rules in the rulebook are different from the rules in the codex. Otherwise the system breaks down. With special rules we are given permission to break the rules as long as the special rule says we can, formation rules are explicitly described as special rules. Special rules exist in the rulebook, and have rules in the rulebook.

 

The special rules in the rulebook are not the only set of special rules which is also clearly explained in the section:

 

"Most of the more commonly used special rules in warhammer 40k are listed here, but this is by no means an exhaustive list. Many troops have their own unique abilities, which are laid out in the codex."

 

This states that special rules are present in other ways. The following section indicates that, any units in codex have their own special rules. But this doesn't mean special rules can be present in other places. In fact publications for many years which aren't codecies have special rules in them.

 

The little "Special Rules" tab for each individual unit details what special rules it has.

 

In addition if you still believe special rules from the formation/codex aren't the same as the formation, then do we not ignore all the special rules the models have? Their unit entries are present in the formation, and the rules such as deep strike and what not are present under the unit entries. So how do we differentiate between the deep strike in the rulebook and the deep strike in the formation? Because of the special rules between codex and rulebook aren't the same then that means the special rules between formation and rulebook aren't the same and therefore don't allow permission even though we are given it.

 

To summarise it is irrelevant if the formation holds presidency or not, the explicit link to special rules still holds value and still allows overriding of the rules. Their is no differentiation between "Special rules" and "Special rules" as even the dataslate description tells us they are the same.

[Gentlemanloser]

Nowhere does it say we differentiate between special rules in the codex and special rules in the rulebook.

 

Yes it does, as that's what the Basic, Advanced and Codex distinctions are.

 

 

There is a special rules section in the rulebook which covers ALL special rules.

 

No it doesn't.

 

Where is The Aegis in the BRB?

 

 

If we use your logic, how do we know if a rule from a codex that tells

us to look in the rulebook trumps a rule from the rulebook

 

Page 7...

 

Sorry Alex, but your last post is rambling in circles, and based on a bad premise.

 

The distinction between a BRB rule (either Basic or Advanced) and a Codex rule is quite clear.

 

What's not clear is where a Formation rule stands in this.

[alex567]

My computer doesn't let me quote so bare with me, each new paragraph is in regards to a new comment.

 

Firstly I would disagree. But in reflection I realise this point is irrelevant to the debate.

 

Secondly you misunderstand me, the special rules section does cover all special rules. Not in regards to them being in the rulebook but with respect to referencing every rule considered special. All special rules irrelevant of codex or advanced follow these rules. You are correct yes, the aegis is not in the book, but it is a special rule and therefore still follows the rules for special rules.

 

The allies rule is an advanced rule which states the following statement under the subtext of the paragraph for battle brothers (page 112):

"However, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."

 

However the rules for special rules, which all special rules follow gives us permission to break these rules as part of the parameters of the special rule section:

"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule."

 

This tells us that special rules break or bend the main game rules. All special rules no matter where they are or where they come from (within 40k) follow these special rules.

 

 

The way I see it is a special rule is an advanced rule, therefore all special rules are considered an advanced rule, it may be that codex advanced rules trump rulebook advanced rules but minimum they are advanced. But even if this is not true, the rules for special rules allows us to break/bend the rules within the parameters of the special rule. This is what is occurring. If you tell me that an advanced rule (allies) trumps the formation rules, then I have broken the rules, but that is exactly what the special rules section was intended to do, break the main rules. Therefore it is allowed. Do you understand my thought process?

[Gentlemanloser]

Secondly you misunderstand me, the special rules section does cover

all special rules. Not in regards to them being in the rulebook but with

respect to referencing every rule considered special. All special rules

irrelevant of codex or advanced follow these rules. You are correct

yes, the aegis is not in the book, but it is a special rule and

therefore still follows the rules for special rules.

 

What rules do special rules follow?  The 'Special Rules' section contain no rules.  It's purely a list of some of the most common Special Rules in the game.

 

What relation or relevance does the BRB Special Rules section have to The Aegis Special Rule in the GK Codex?

 

The allies rule is an advanced rule which states the following

statement under the subtext of the paragraph for battle brothers (page

112):

"However, note that not even Battle Brothers can embark in allied transport vehicles."

However the rules for special rules, which all special rules follow

gives us permission to break these rules as part of the parameters of

the special rule section:

"Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends

one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule."

 

This is in error.

 

What the rule book actually states is that Advanced rules over rule Basic rules.

 

We are given *no* instruction on how to deal with Advanced Rules that contradict other Advanced rules.  Like a BRB Special Rule (Advanced) which might conflict with the Allies Transports Rules (Advanced).

 

Just being a Special Rule gives you no status at overrulling other rules.

 

A BRB Special rule does not, and can not over rule a Codex rule.  At all.

 

 

This tells us that special rules break or bend the main game rules.

 

The Basic rules.

 

All special rules no matter where they are or where they come from

(within 40k) follow these special rules.

 

What rules?

 

All they are are either Advanced (if in the BRB) or Codex rules (If in a Codex).

 

 

Edit;

 

An example is Jump Infantry Movement.

 

Jump Infantry can, as an Advanced rule, overrule the Basic movement rule of 6" and more 12".

 

This is not a Special Rule.

 

They have a rule, that is not a Special Rule, that allows them to 'break' the normal rules of the game (The Basic rules).  The Special Rules Jump Infantry have are Bulky and Deep Strike, neither of which allow Jump Infantry to move than 6".

[alex567]

Nowhere does it say in the special rules section that it is in reference to a basic rule.

 

The two opening paragraphs to the special rules are still important, they're not just throw away text.

 

If special rules cannot override advanced rules then how does for instance the night vision rule, override the night fighting rules? As they are both advanced rules. This is an advanced rule implicitly overriding an advanced rule.

 

Now as stated above, the second paragraph for special rules states that special rules break rules. And as shown n the example above advanced special rules can break advanced rules.

 

So given the above data special rules (advanced) clearly trump advanced rules. Therefore the formation rules, which are still special rules, which still come under the section of special rules in the rulebook even if the rules themselves are not present in the rulebook, trump the advanced rules for allies.

 

I don't see how your example is relevant?

[Brother Casman]

I'm pretty sure that the following snippet is enough to clarify where formation rules fit into the 40k system: "Dataslates contain collections of one or more datasheets. Each datasheet lists its faction (the codex it is considered part of)...". In other words, Dataslates, and thus formations, are Codex rules.

[Gentlemanloser]

And Cypher?

 

Nowhere does it say in the special rules section that it is in reference to a basic rule.

 

Page 7 does that.

 

 

The two opening paragraphs to the special rules are still important, they're not just throw away text.

 

What rules do those two passages contain then?

 

If special rules cannot override advanced rules then how does for
instance the night vision rule, override the night fighting rules? As
they are both advanced rules. This is an advanced rule implicitly
overriding an advanced rule.

 

Yup.  This is an Advanced - Advanced conflict.  And we're given no RAW to inform us how this should be resolved.

 

I'm 100% sure most will rule on the side of Night Vision ignoring Night Fighting, which would be the obvious RAI.

 

Even though it's not RAW.

 

 

Now as stated above, the second paragraph for special rules states
that special rules break rules.

 

Yes they can, they can break Basic rules.

 

 

And as shown n the example above
advanced special rules can break advanced rules.

 

No they can't.  In this case, people are playing to the obvious RAI.

 

So given the above data special rules (advanced) clearly trump

advanced rules. Therefore the formation rules, which are still special
rules, which still come under the section of special rules in the
rulebook even if the rules themselves are not present in the rulebook,
trump the advanced rules for allies.

 

Advanced does not, and can not trump Advanced.

 

Being a Special Rule holds no additional weight.

 

Edit;

 

Brother Casman is totally spot on.

 

Even Cypher states;

 

 

The Faction determines which codex the datasheet is considered part of for all rules purposes.

 

So data sheets are considered Codex Rules.

[Brother Casman]

Also Codex rules. A mini-codex (even smaller than normal mini-dexes!) consisting of a single model and an optional formation.

[alex567]

++purged because it is now irrelevant due to brother casman's god like detective skills++

 

 

I will just like to point out that the game does not refer to allies as being advanced rules.

 

"Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate damaged flesh), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm, or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40k codex"

[Gentlemanloser]

The Rules section of the BRB are Pages 2 to 132.

 

Pages 2-9 are general principles of the game.

 

Pages 10-31 are 'Basic' rules.

 

Everything from 32 to 132 are 'Advanced'.  Because they aren't Basic.

 

You could claim that Allies fall under "because they are different to their fellows", as they aren't part of the Primary detachment.  Which you require, while Allies are optional.

 

/shrug

[Grey Mage]

 

 

Option A the rule is allowed as it is a special rule and ergo trumps

the BRB ruling. (remembering that codex rules now come from rulebooks,

for instance power of the machine spirit, meaning it is no longer a

codex trumps rulebook scenario)

Option B the rule is not allowed along with every special rule

detailed from page 33 through to 43, and there by nullifying all

available abilities in the game.

 

The rulebook contains 'special rules'.  It's actually a named section all to itself (starting page 32).

 

Being a 'special rule' trumps nothing.

 

The 'Special rules' listed in the BRB are actually Advanced rules.

 

The 'Special rules' contained in Codexes are Codex rules.

 

And we're told the relationship of how Basic, Advanced and Codex rules interact.

 

Formation rules are not 'Codex' rules.  Neither are the Advanced or Basic.

 

They are currently outside the hierarchy of the three types of rules used in 40k.  And we have been given no guidance on where they should be included.

 

You could assume the intention is that they are to be treated as Codex rules.  But then what happens in a Formation to Codex conflict?  Which takes precedence then?

More specific to less specific, always. The formation is specific to itself, so it trumps a codex rule when it comes into directly conflict.

 

The codex is more specific than the rule book on most things, so it wins when it comes directly into conflict.

 

Etc etc etc.

[Dam13n]

May I interject this:

 

 

Each datasheet will list the Faction it is part of. The Faction determines which codex the datasheet is considered part of for all rules purposes. For example, a datasheet for a new Space Marine Army List Entry can be used in any detachment chosen from Codex: Space Marines, while a datasheet for a new Ork Formation would be treated as a Detachment from Codex: Orks, and so on.

 

Now that's from the Introduction page of all the Dataslates I own.

 

If a Dataslate has a special rule it is treated as a special rule from the parent codex of the models involved.

 

Therefore the Independent Formation is considered to be a Codex: Space Marines special rule.  It therefore over-rules the BRB as per the Codex>BRB ruling.

 

At least that's my interpretation.

[Gentlemanloser]

More specific to less specific, always. The formation is specific to itself, so it trumps a codex rule when it comes into directly conflict.

 

The codex is more specific than the rule book on most things, so it wins when it comes directly into conflict.

 

Etc etc etc.

 

Specific to General is a left over from earlier editions.

 

I've long said Page 7 would be far better if instead of a Global Codex > Advanced > Basic, a clause about Specific over rides General was in place instead.

 

Sadly, it's not (like modelling for an advantage) part of the ruleset anymore Grey Mage.

 

As much as we would both like it to be.

 

 

May I interject this:

 

Just a fraction too late mate. ;)

[Dam13n]

It was meant as a "back on topic" nudge.

 

There is no Advanced vs Basic discrepancy here. It's (effectively) Codex vs Rulebook.

 

Meh.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

It was meant as a "back on topic" nudge.

 

Hah!  Too subtle. ;)

 

 

There is no Advanced vs Basic discrepancy here. It's (effectively) Codex vs Rulebook.

 

And as such, the only ruling should be as above that the Datasheet rule over rides the BRB ally restriction and Space Marines from both Primary and Allied detachments can ride in a 'Storm Wing' Stormraven.

 

This has given me a seperate quesiton though.  I'll make a new thread. :)

[Dam13n]

Hey, no problem...  At least it worked from the point of view that we aren't going in circles.

 

I'll look into the new topic later to see if I have any input to make.